New Titans Stadium (60,000 capacity dome, ground level retail, directly east of Nissan Stadium)

[Luvemtall]

5 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

This all occurred even as Bob Kraft threatened to and had a deal to move the Patriots to Hartford as a negotiation tactic and then did an about face and built the home of the greatest football team of this generation.

Err… you mean the greatest cheating football team of this generation. 

P.S I have no intentions of a feud. Just stating the facts. 
back to Nashville and our stadium chat

Edited February 22, 2022 by Luvemtall

[Luvemtall]

I agree with both Mark and Bos2Nash, Lucas Oil is the best looking NFL Stadium. A similar design would fit right in on the East Bank . Keeping that industrial vibe of the areas past. 

[Bos2Nash]

11 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

Err… you mean the greatest cheating football team of this generation. 

P.S I have no intentions of a feud. Just stating the facts. 

[Armacing]

13 hours ago, CandyAisles said:

 Paying up for a new stadium is indenfensible…but not as much as letting the NFL leave town or to sink $1 billion in a really terrible building that was purposefully built on the cheap.

The prudent course of action would be to do reasonable renovations (less than what the Titans requested) and remain in the same stadium.  If the Titans threaten to leave after that is offered then you really need to ask yourself why you are so loyal to a team that shows zero loyalty to their fans and their host city.  Is it all about the money with them?  Ok, fine - - two can play at that game!  Nashvillians love their money too and they're not forking over one red cent to subsidize your privately-owned for-profit business!  That should be the city's negotiating stance.

If Nashville is not willing to call the Titan's bluff then the city has given up all negotiation leverage.  But again, if the citizens of Nashville vote to spend $3B on a new stadium, I would love to see it happen.  It will be hilarious when all the public employees are on strike because the city can't afford to give them a decent wage increase, because that $3B stadium will be thrown in the current Mayor's face 24/7.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Armacing

[Luvemtall]

Bos2Nash, I was just poking some fun. Hopefully no hard feelings, I totally respect your thoughts. 

[grilled_cheese]

14 hours ago, CandyAisles said:

Concerts primarily. You’d get more U2, Paul McCartney, Metallica, Taylor Swift, etc. Those acts need assurances from weather typically.

They don't need it, they'd prefer it.  Plus, both Paul McCartney and Taylor Swift have already played the stadium, maybe even multiple times, among other artists.  I can't recall if U2 or Metallica have.   U2 has played Vanderbilt Stadium, however.

14 hours ago, CandyAisles said:

Paying up for a new stadium is indenfensible…but not as much as letting the NFL leave town or to sink $1 billion in a really terrible building that was purposefully built on the cheap.

Wow, we've already jumped ahead in the game to the relocation stage.  That was fast.

[Melrose]

1 hour ago, grilled_cheese said:

They don't need it, they'd prefer it.  Plus, both Paul McCartney and Taylor Swift have already played the stadium, maybe even multiple times, among other artists.  I can't recall if U2 or Metallica have.   U2 has played Vanderbilt Stadium, however.

Wow, we've already jumped ahead in the game to the relocation stage.  That was fast.

Yes,  important to keep in mind that the current stadium is getting most of the things being mentioned in this thread, before any upgrades or rebuilds.

And there is nothing the Titans and their lobbyists would love more than for people to start throwing around baseless relocation panic.  

[donNdonelson2]

If they start with the “we’re leaving” strategy, I would respectfully submit that they need us more than we need them. (I wouldn’t cry if they chose to leave.)

[bigeasy]

I would be interested to hear what the owners of Bridgestone  Arena think about the possibility of a new Titans stadium.  Currently they get the large concerts, basketball events, etc. I would assume a new/bigger Titans stadium would poach events away from them. So I wouldn't they would be too happy about possibly losing some revenue, especially if it is funded by the city.

Would residents of Williamson county have to chip in for a stadium? Asking for a friend

[Luvemtall]

29 minutes ago, bigeasy said:

Would residents of Williamson county have to chip in for a stadium? Asking for a friend

I would think residents of all Tennessee Counties, would somehow have to chip in . You know some kind of funding or incentives would be on a state level. Wasn’t that the case with the team being the Tennessee Titans?

[arkitekte]

3 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

I would think residents of all Tennessee Counties, would somehow have to chip in . You know some kind of funding or incentives would be on a state level. Wasn’t that the case with the team being the Tennessee Titans?

I believe so. 

[Armacing]

4 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

I would think residents of all Tennessee Counties, would somehow have to chip in . You know some kind of funding or incentives would be on a state level. Wasn’t that the case with the team being the Tennessee Titans?

No way that is going to happen, and Republican power has grown dramatically in TN since the bygone era when the Titan's stadium was built...  And the cultural war between Davidson county and the surrounding counties has only intensified since then.  No - I think it's fair to assume there would be staunch opposition to any state money going into a new stadium.  Davidson county will have to go it alone.

One person asked about Williamson - - HA!  That really makes me laugh because Williamson county's whole brand is their ability to enjoy all the benefits of proximity to Davidson without any of the problems or taxes.  It would be political suicide for anyone in Williamson government to voluntarily hitch their wagon to Nashville's financially questionable endeavors. 

[Luvemtall]

@Armacingi hear what your saying, but I believe there’s many projects here in Nashville that the State has its hands in. Oracle and Amazon come to mind. Those new tunnels under I-24 to connect the East Bank with the rest of East Nashville are a state TDOT  example, plus incentives that the State made. It happens a lot more then some think, and in reality Nashville IS Tennessee. This growth that’s happening is because of Nashville, without it, the rest of Tennessee wouldn’t even be considered for much of anything. 

[samsonh]

23 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

@Armacingi hear what your saying, but I believe there’s many projects here in Nashville that the State has its hands in. Oracle and Amazon come to mind. Those new tunnels under I-24 to connect the East Bank with the rest of East Nashville are a state TDOT  example, plus incentives that the State made. It happens a lot more then some think, and in reality Nashville IS Tennessee. This growth that’s happening is because of Nashville, without it, the rest of Tennessee wouldn’t even be considered for much of anything. 

This is true. People move to middle tn because of the attractions Nashville provides. That said, I’m for a new stadium if they can fund it using primarily private money. I hate taking money the east bank will be generating anyway in 10-20 years to subsidize the NFL. 

[Armacing]

12 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

@Armacingi hear what your saying, but I believe there’s many projects here in Nashville that the State has its hands in. Oracle and Amazon come to mind. Those new tunnels under I-24 to connect the East Bank with the rest of East Nashville are a state TDOT  example, plus incentives that the State made. It happens a lot more then some think, and in reality Nashville IS Tennessee. This growth that’s happening is because of Nashville, without it, the rest of Tennessee wouldn’t even be considered for much of anything. 

I think you might be too deep into the Nashville bubble.  Nashville has not risen to the level of a ultra-dominant primate city like Atlanta/Seattle/Portland/Chicago/Boston, etc.   The state's population is still relatively spread out between the 3 grand divisions and economic growth has continued to happen in all 3 regions.  Nashville is getting a lot of media attention that the other parts of the state don't get, but I bet that will change soon.  I think ultimately Tennessee will be more like Ohio and less like Georgia in the sense that we will have several good-sized cities rather than one dominant city that becomes the center of gravity.

Personally, I think Memphis, Chattanooga, and Knoxville are primed for growth and I wish I had money to invest in real estate in those cities.

But back to your good point about state incentives for recent relocations:  True, those had state money.  But in all cases the private company was making the investment and they were getting tax cuts or wage subsidies based on the number of good jobs they bring.  There was some infrastructure building in those deals, but I would argue that building out city infrastructure is a normal function for city government, and everyone can use those streets.

In contrast, the Titans are asking the government to make the capital investment for a highly-specialized asset that cannot be utilized by the general public.  And the Titans are already here, so I don't think the state has yet in its history faced the "If you don't build it, we will leave" scenario like it will with the new stadium.  To me it seems that arouses a different emotional response in the public than the typical "If you build it they will come" scenario.  It raises the question "If Nashville is so special, why would they leave?"  The troubling answer to that question is "Nashville is not special, the team is only here for the state subsidies"  Of course, that line of questioning applies to all the scenarios you mentioned, but I think the threat to leave puts that question into starker contrast.  At least when a business is moving here with subsidies, the question of whether they come for the city or the subsidies is open-ended... it could be either or both.  One is a compliment and the other is an insult, so they balance out.  But the threat to leave removes all doubt and I think that plays differently with the public, and therefore, with politicians.

[Licec]

12 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

This growth that’s happening is because of Nashville, without it, the rest of Tennessee wouldn’t even be considered for much of anything. 

Dude, Memphis just got a multi billion dollar Ford vehicle and battery complex. And no, Wilson, Sumner, Maury, Montgomery, Rutherford, etc. are not going to help fund any of Nashville's pet projects. Just like Nashville wouldn't for anyone else. In what universe would Nashville fund projects in Gatlinburg?

Edited February 23, 2022 by Licec

[Bos2Nash]

A couple of us have mentioned that we believe the Titans benefit from Nashville more than Nashville benefits from the Titans. I would expand on that thought as well in that the NFL owners have greatly benefited from Nashville - think about the success of the draft - and because they have to vote on any relocation, I think they would have a harder sell to leave. 24 out of the 32 teams (3/4 majority) has to vote in favor of any relocation and while I know rich folks love/support other rich folks (super generalization) the Nashville market would be a big loss for the NFL. I think this will be a very unique stadium negotiation because while the Titans have a very solid fanbase, fans from all over travel when their team is in Nashville not only for football, but also for Nashville. 

In looking around articles, it is very rare for a State legislature to get involved with the actual financing of a stadium - rare, but not impossible (See Minnesota's stadium). Typically they are involved more on the infrastructure or land granting area. Since the Sports Authority already owns the land, the state won't get involved there. If the State were to get involved, then I would say they step to the plate and help get the new spine road and infrastructure laid along that, that would be the most realistic place to get involved. The rest would fall on Davidson County alone. Surrounding counties will benefit greatly and will also criticize greatly (like if they don't get there acres upon acres of asphalt parking lots), but they will not have to shoulder and cost burden. And folks wonder why living in the suburbs is cheaper than a city (FYI cities subsidize the burbs)

[Melrose]

3 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

A couple of us have mentioned that we believe the Titans benefit from Nashville more than Nashville benefits from the Titans

This is a really important concept that Nashville needs to embrace broadly.   Nashville no longer needs to so anxiously chase every shiny new toy and development opportunity, regardless of the cost or the burden on available city resources.  We need to be confident in what we have to offer and push developers and companies to really truly invest here,  even if maybe that means the companies have to make a bit less profit in the process.  There is plenty of room for Nashville to expect more before we need to worry about companies choosing  somewhere else.     

[nashvylle]

18 minutes ago, Melrose said:

This is a really important concept that Nashville needs to embrace broadly.   Nashville no longer needs to so anxiously chase every shiny new toy and development opportunity, regardless of the cost or the burden on available city resources.  We need to be confident in what we have to offer and push developers and companies to really truly invest here,  even if maybe that means the companies have to make a bit less profit in the process.  There is plenty of room for Nashville to expect more before we need to worry about companies choosing  somewhere else.     

Nashville is also bottom 5 NFL markets, so... I think Nashville and Titans both benefit from each other. 

[nashvylle]

Does anyone know how much of an effect state employment laws have on the cost of the stadium? I would imagine TN, Texas, and Florida have the most owner friendly laws when it comes to construction versus California, New York, etc. 

[markhollin]

Another concept that needs to be strongly considered is the burgeoning value of the approximate 100 acre campus that Nissan Stadium sits on that is owned by Metro/Sports Authority.  The recent sale by Monroe Investments of the 3 + acres next to the Oracle campus to GBT worked out to $16.21 million per acre....and that is 3/4 of a mile north of the stadium district.  That would certainly translate into this 100 acre campus directly across from the downtown/Broadway being worth around $20 million per acre.  Thus, that entire plot is worth $2 Billion TODAY.  So the city should be very wise, savvy, and shrewd about how they allow any private enterprises to be involved, and make sure they maximize the long-term outcomes of that raw land for the benefit of the city---not just the enterprises.

[Bos2Nash]

16 hours ago, markhollin said:

Another concept that needs to be strongly considered is the burgeoning value of the approximate 100 acre campus that Nissan Stadium sits on that is owned by Metro/Sports Authority.  The recent sale by Monroe Investments of the 3 + acres next to the Oracle campus to GBT worked out to $16.21 million per acre....and that is 3/4 of a mile north of the stadium district.  That would certainly translate into this 100 acre campus directly across from the downtown/Broadway being worth around $20 million per acre.  Thus, that entire plot is worth $2 Billion TODAY.  So the city should be very wise, savvy, and shrewd about how they allow any private enterprises to be involved, and make sure they maximize the long-term outcomes of that raw land for the benefit of the city---not just the enterprises.

The land is extremely valuable in the private sector, yes, but I don't trust that the city would be able to negotiate a price tag that high. We have seen time and again the sales of public land going for pennies compared to the private sector. Personally, I don't want the Sports Authority to sell a single acre. I want them to ground lease to private development firms that allow them to build on the property while the city benefits longterm. This would include the stadium as well.

A good example of how another city did this is the Winthrop Tower in Boston's business district. There was a condemned garage that the city owns, they put out to bid for redevelopment and let the private sector bid both from what they would development as well as terms of the ground lease. The winning bid is producing a pretty awesome Retail, Office, Condo tower that includes $150 million ground lease for the city. The city maintains the ownership of the land, while benefiting from the tax revenue the new tower develops. 

[MLBrumby]

I was curious about those options, and ground leases seem to be a good way to go, perhaps with incentives to build the garages and allowing a portion of the concessions for certain events. I think I heard there's a PILOT arrangement for that area, but don't know for sure. That's a good start. My fault with MDHA has long been (what I think) is their inability to negotiate fair market value for the land they control AND to place requirements for what gets developed on those sites. The handling of the Trolley Barns and surrounding land seemed inept with the choice of developer (one major component still hasn't broken ground 9 years later!)... and the acquisition of land before the Music City Center was built. MDHA knew that was where the city wanted to build the convention center for years. Yet, developers were buying key parcels (Remember the Marks family from California?) swooping in and then selling them to Metro at 5X what they paid for it.  There was at least one lawsuit that MDHA filed, which I'm quite sure they lost.  I heard from several sources back then that former MDHA chief Rick Barnhardt isn't  the brightest bulb by far.  I don't know him personally; so take that FWIW. 

[markhollin]

I was a guest on 102.5 The Game's Darren Daunic & Chase midday show today for 15 minutes to discuss possibilities about the new Titans Stadium concepts in regards to location options, price of land, costs to the city, etc.   After they finished with me, Darren McFarland and Derrick Mason (guest hosting this week) spent another 25 minutes going over what we talked about.

You can listen to a stream of it at this link.  Go to the replay section at the upper-center of the page, click on "Hour 1" and fast forward to 11:15 to 44:59.

https://www.thegamenashville.com/darren-daunic-chase/

BTW, I had a brain fart when I referred to the MLB Commissioner as Paul Manafort (who is currently in prison) instead of Rob Manfred.  G'uh.   Sorry about that! 

[Rick Dalton]

Manafort and Manfred are easily comparable at least