New Titans Stadium (60,000 capacity dome, ground level retail, directly east of Nissan Stadium)

[MLBrumby]

Several people I know even now still poke fun at The Parthenon in Centennial Park. Of course, I don't think any of them have actually visited the museum, but they have no qualms about knocking it as kitsch and "quaint". 

[titanhog]

13 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Several people I know even now still poke fun at The Parthenon in Centennial Park. Of course, I don't think any of them have actually visited the museum, but they have no qualms about knocking it as kitsch and "quaint". 

Well…if they knew the history of it, maybe they wouldn’t poke fun at it.  It’s not like we just all of a sudden said, “Hey…let’s build a replica of the Parthenon.” 

[BnaBreaker]

5 hours ago, titanhog said:

Well…if they knew the history of it, maybe they wouldn’t poke fun at it.  It’s not like we just all of a sudden said, “Hey…let’s build a replica of the Parthenon.” 

Plus, it's not like it was made out of styrofoam and legos or something.  It was built to last, and is an exact replica.  They even covered The Athena statue in gold leaf for gods sake.  This is no throw away fun house tourist trap you'd find in Pigeon Forge or something.

Edited March 15, 2022 by BnaBreaker

[dmillsphoto]

I mean... y'all are basically asking for a capped version of The Shoe here at OSU, which is albeit less round and more... shoe. I don't and wouldn't expect any modern sports facility to ever replicate that style, and especially so considering the prominence of location. It's fun to dream but would never happen. Cost of the facade alone would make it unobtainable as an investment.

[colemangaines]

https://mobile.twitter.com/fos/status/1503766975452835841?s=21

Tennessee Titans President Burke Nihill has informed Metro Sports Authority that the team wants to build a new stadium next to Nissan Stadium by 2026. "It’s aggressive, but we believe it’s in play.”

Edited March 15, 2022 by colemangaines
link

[PillowTalk4]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:35 PM, nashvylle said:

Yeah, fine line between being ridiculously expensive and ridiculously tacky, but a Greek subtlety in the design can go a long way, IMO. 

I always liked how Chicago integrated the original neoclassical design of Soldier Field into the new design completed in 2003.

The East Bank will probably take on a modern style, so I suspect if a new stadium is built, it too will be modern in style.   I also suspect most of the residential buildings will mid-rise to high-rise buildings.  So, I personally don't think a new stadium has to be a brick structure to fit in given the amount of glass, metal and other materials that will probably be used in the facades of those residential buildings.  I think so long as there are no massive parking lots surrounding the facility, the impact on residents will be minimal.  Parking issues would be my biggest concern if I lived near a stadium.  Without a major mass transit system in place, I simply don't know how Nashville will manage fans getting to a stadium with limited parking nearby.

[colemangaines]

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/mayor-cooper-says-titans-are-responsible-for-costs-of-new-stadium

"Mayor Cooper says Titans are responsible for costs of new stadium"

Seems like the deal is still being worked out but Cooper is at least publicly taking the stance that no taxpayer money will be used. Not sure if that covers issued bonds, though. 

[nashvylle]

Cooper has included $75MM in bonds for The Fairgrounds Speedway to be paid back by SMI. 

I pray he has same mindset for Titans. 

[Melrose]

28 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Cooper has included $75MM in bonds for The Fairgrounds Speedway to be paid back by SMI. 

I pray he has same mindset for Titans. 

This is not correct.  SMI has not agreed to pay back or guarantee the bonds,  unlike Nashville SC with the soccer stadium.  That speedway proposal actually relies upon mostly non-guaranteed revenue streams.

This is an important distinction and one that will likewise need attention when the details of any Titans deal are discussed.   Cooper has been very vague on both projects so far, talking about "no cost to the general fund",  but that is not the right question or the issue.   When these details get obscured,  that is how Metro ends up in another agreement like the original Titans agreement and its renovation obligation that has put the city in the position it is in. 

 

 

[nashvylle]

49 minutes ago, Melrose said:

This is not correct.  SMI has not agreed to pay back or guarantee the bonds,  unlike Nashville SC with the soccer stadium.  That speedway proposal actually relies upon mostly non-guaranteed revenue streams.

This is an important distinction and one that will likewise need attention when the details of any Titans deal are discussed.   Cooper has been very vague on both projects so far, talking about "no cost to the general fund",  but that is not the right question or the issue.   When these details get obscured,  that is how Metro ends up in another agreement like the original Titans agreement and its renovation obligation that has put the city in the position it is in. 

 

 

Yes I agree and will rephrase:

Cooper has included $75MM for bonds at The Fairgrounds Speedway "and marketed" the bonds will be paid back by SMI. 

[Bos2Nash]

I would think/hope the speedway financing/debt service will be worked out in a similar manner as the soccer stadium.  I could also see it being a little more complicated as the vast majority of NASCAR operated tracks are privately owned, so public ownership might be a weird area for SMI.
 

When it comes to the Titans stadium. They NEED to be on the hook for all debt service and any debt obligation. The thing that concerns me is we essentially need big developers with deep pockets to come in and do proper mixed-use development. So many of the housing projects in the city have empty retail slots that are meager and not overly suitable for actual retail. Mixed income housing will be a necessity, neighborhood essentials like grocery stores and smaller office will be needed. I say this because I worry about relying on tax revenue from these future developments and when that revenue will become real. Who covers the debt related costs while those developments are built? It cannot be the city. 
 

IMHO, 2026 is too aggressive for a stadium on this valuable of land. Their lease is for another 7 years so we have plenty of time to work out a deal and don’t need to rush it. I still think the stadium is in the right location and should not be pushed east any further. Extend the lower Broadway special tax district and have the convention center help with the bonds / financing for the stadium. 

[Baronakim]

5 hours ago, PillowTalk4 said:

I always liked how Chicago integrated the original neoclassical design of Soldier Field into the new design completed in 2003.

The East Bank will probably take on a modern style, so I suspect if a new stadium is built, it too will be modern in style.   I also suspect most of the residential buildings will mid-rise to high-rise buildings.  So, I personally don't think a new stadium has to be a brick structure to fit in given the amount of glass, metal and other materials that will probably be used in the facades of those residential buildings.  I think so long as there are no massive parking lots surrounding the facility, the impact on residents will be minimal.  Parking issues would be my biggest concern if I lived near a stadium.  Without a major mass transit system in place, I simply don't know how Nashville will manage fans getting to a stadium with limited parking nearby.

Why can't a new stadium be built on top pofa massive semi-underground parking structire like at Nashville Yards that would also serve parking for adjacent residential towers like Alcove and Prime will have?  When I proposed the massive shopping Eurosphere project back in the 1980s ALL the parking was completely under the project... over 12,000 vehicles.  I posed a rendering a few days ago on this thread.  The concept works well for the Green Hills Dillard's now.  Sort of a bummer for tailgaters though.

 

[Nicholson]

Eli Motycka's latest newsletter covers the new Titans stadium:

https://publiccomment.substack.com/p/field-position?s=r

Here's a highlight full of linked sources:

"There have been attempts to misrepresent stadium benefits, like last month’s inflated NCVC World Cup economic impact study, but the economics are settled. One-off, high-profile events like the Super Bowl, the NFL draft, or an IndyCar race make the city look successful, but the numbers don’t work out in favor of residents. Publicly-financed stadiums are money pits where public officials throw away taxpayer dollars."

[MLBrumby]

16 minutes ago, Nicholson said:

Eli Motycka's latest newsletter covers the new Titans stadium:

https://publiccomment.substack.com/p/field-position?s=r

Here's a highlight full of linked sources:

"There have been attempts to misrepresent stadium benefits, like last month’s inflated NCVC World Cup economic impact study, but the economics are settled. One-off, high-profile events like the Super Bowl, the NFL draft, or an IndyCar race make the city look successful, but the numbers don’t work out in favor of residents. Publicly-financed stadiums are money pits where public officials throw away taxpayer dollars."

It looks to me like this cake is already baked.  And Burke Nihill says he thinks the team will be in a new stadium in four years! 

I said a few weeks ago I suspect the deal is done, and the only thing the powers are doing at this stage is "hashing out" how to sell it to the pubic. I suspect the "dome" will be the spoonful of sugar. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by MLBrumby

[nashvylle]

53 minutes ago, Nicholson said:

Eli Motycka's latest newsletter covers the new Titans stadium:

https://publiccomment.substack.com/p/field-position?s=r

Here's a highlight full of linked sources:

"There have been attempts to misrepresent stadium benefits, like last month’s inflated NCVC World Cup economic impact study, but the economics are settled. One-off, high-profile events like the Super Bowl, the NFL draft, or an IndyCar race make the city look successful, but the numbers don’t work out in favor of residents. Publicly-financed stadiums are money pits where public officials throw away taxpayer dollars."

Not all stadium deals are the same. The 100 acres around the stadium are 1.) already owned by Metro Sports Authority and 2.) are currently producing $0 in revenue for the city as surface parking lots. With the current stadium as eating away at Metro's general fund, and with Nashville's dire need of affordable housing, there could be a situation, if structured properly, where TIF loans, revenue bonds, and ground leases could be issued (covered by Titans and new taxes from new development), new affordable housing developed at no metro cost, and no redirection of existing sales taxes towards interest payments (unlike convention center). If structured this way, it is not accurate to compare that financing to... las vegas raiders, buffalo bills, etc. 

Yes, some people will say "Metro could just sell off the land to highest bidder and tell Titans to walk", but given its location, I'd really like to have a completely new and affordable neighborhood with a new stadium hosting events weekly plus super bowl, college football playoffs, ncaa final four, world cup, etc.

Edited March 17, 2022 by nashvylle

[grilled_cheese]

It is my understanding that Bears people hate the 'alien ship' on top of Soldier Field.  They built it because it was a historical landmark and they couldn't bulldoze it but needed to expand. 

 

Soldier Field lost it's historical landmark status sometime in the last decade or so and now the ownership group is threatening to move the team out to the exurbs.  LOL

[Nicholson]

Motycka's piece goes into a lot of depth about how the deal might develop too. Metro Council will have to weigh in at some point.

It would be great to see Bos2Nash's ideas, or something similar in the next round of negotiations. 

23 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

When it comes to the Titans stadium. They NEED to be on the hook for all debt service and any debt obligation. The thing that concerns me is we essentially need big developers with deep pockets to come in and do proper mixed-use development. So many of the housing projects in the city have empty retail slots that are meager and not overly suitable for actual retail. Mixed income housing will be a necessity, neighborhood essentials like grocery stores and smaller office will be needed. I say this because I worry about relying on tax revenue from these future developments and when that revenue will become real. Who covers the debt related costs while those developments are built? It cannot be the city. 
 

IMHO, 2026 is too aggressive for a stadium on this valuable of land. Their lease is for another 7 years so we have plenty of time to work out a deal and don’t need to rush it. I still think the stadium is in the right location and should not be pushed east any further. Extend the lower Broadway special tax district and have the convention center help with the bonds / financing for the stadium. 

A few more highlights from Motycka:

(I'm trying to resist copy/pasting the whole thing haha)

"New York, Miami, or Los Angeles, the metropolitan tier Nashville likes to claim, do not pay for their stadiums—they make the billionaires do it... 

This is what happened in New York (MetLife, 2010, $1.7bn), Los Angeles (SoFi, 2020, $5.5bn), and Miami (Hard Rock, $350m renovation, 2015). To build Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas for $1.9bn, the Raiders got $750m from Clark County backed by tourist taxes, the largest ever public commitment to a stadium. That deal has not turned out well for Las Vegas...

The Tennessean has done little to find out essential information, like metro’s contractual obligations under the current lease, instead beating the drum for a new stadium, East Bank development, and a downtown riverfront.

There are a lot of unknowns and a few knowns. The ability for Metro to service whatever loans it takes out for the Titans will be tied to a single Tiger Mart on Shelby unless more money starts changing hands quickly around the stadium. If this deal gets through—Metro Council would have to approve a lot of it, including a local counterpart to the state legislation—Metro’s financial wellbeing will be hitched to the East Bank for a generation... "

 

_ _ _

Just noticed your post nashvylle, and IMO, it would be great to see the East Bank develop that way, but for about $1 Billion less by renovating the existing stadium. 

There's an opportunity cost for financing a new stadium, as opposed to other needs in the city. The Metro Nashville Transportation Plan approved in 2020, for example, has no dedicated funding source, and has a price tag just north of $1 Billion. Not that these are identical funding mechanisms, but there is some overlap. It might good to elaborate on transit funding options later, so if I do it'll be on the Transportation thread.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Nicholson

[grilled_cheese]

17 minutes ago, Nicholson said:

renovation

What's the origin of this word?  Can you use it in a sentence? 

 

Because I don't understand it.

[Rick Dalton]

A bit premature to say the Vegas stadium hasn’t worked out when they had it keep it empty for so long right after it opened due to COVID.

[markhollin]

The Titans, Gov. Bill Lee's office and state lawmakers are in negotiations over funding for a brand new stadium, Lt. Gov. Randy McNally, R-Oak Ridge, confirmed to The Tennessean Thursday.

He said they have not decided on a contribution amount but Lee is expected to include money for the project in his upcoming budget amendment.

“We’re always willing to look at budget proposals and discuss opportunities for economic development across the state," Lee spokesperson Casey Black said in a statement Thursday.

Metro Nashville, the stadium's owner, plans to issue revenue bonds for its portion of up-front costs. Ultimately, those bonds would be repaid by future taxes from the new developments surrounding the stadium.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2022/03/18/tennessee-titans-lawmakers-negotiating-deal-funding-new-stadium/7078360001/

[lmc123]

4 hours ago, markhollin said:

The Titans, Gov. Bill Lee's office and state lawmakers are in negotiations over funding for a brand new stadium, Lt. Gov. Randy McNally, R-Oak Ridge, confirmed to The Tennessean Thursday.

He said they have not decided on a contribution amount but Lee is expected to include money for the project in his upcoming budget amendment.

“We’re always willing to look at budget proposals and discuss opportunities for economic development across the state," Lee spokesperson Casey Black said in a statement Thursday.

Metro Nashville, the stadium's owner, plans to issue revenue bonds for its portion of up-front costs. Ultimately, those bonds would be repaid by future taxes from the new developments surrounding the stadium.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2022/03/18/tennessee-titans-lawmakers-negotiating-deal-funding-new-stadium/7078360001/

I don't see them going more than $500M.

[tragenvol]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:56 AM, Logan McCoy said:

I don't see them going more than $500M.

Which would dwarf the $15M to $20M they went with last time around.

[lmc123]

4 hours ago, tragenvol said:

Which would dwarf the $15M to $20M they went with last time around.

The State's finances back in the late 90's was not as strong as it is today. At that time they were considering a state income tax... 

[Bos2Nash]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:28 PM, natethegreat said:

A bit premature to say the Vegas stadium hasn’t worked out when they had it keep it empty for so long right after it opened due to COVID.

Not that the stadium hasn't worked out, but rather the Raiders completely screwed the city of Henderson (the land/stadium is technically in Henderson, NV) by negotiating to purchase the land for $6 million (less than half the value of the land) only to turn around and sell the land in February of 2020 for $191 million ($185 million profit) and turnaround and sign a 99-ground lease with an investment group. Las Vegas implemented a hotel tax to help pay for the stadium over the next 20 years, yet the NFL team is able to profit off of a sweetheart deal handed to them under the guise of "economic development". Here is a story regarding the land shenanigans. It is shenanigans like this that allows a team to profit wildly while the city is fronting alot of capital (or in a bonds scenario, credit) to get these structures built. 

Luckily Metro owns the land and will not be selling it to the Titans, but it is a valuable lesson for the city (and hopefully the State) to pay attention too. The Raiders are an atrocious organization that has a history to back up that statement. One can only hope that the Titans ownership are better. I would hope the State, City and Team are all sitting around a table to discuss these terms. I can see a very volatile situation where the Titans get funding from the State, then while Metro is working out the right deal for the city the State steps in makes a mess of the situation under the guise of "economic development". 

On 3/19/2022 at 12:50 PM, Logan McCoy said:

The State's finances back in the late 90's was not as strong as it is today. At that time they were considering a state income tax... 

And alot of that financial success can be connected to Nashville's success (not all of course, but alot of it). Success that has been had in spite of all the handcuffs the State puts on Metro. 

[lmc123]

13 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Not that the stadium hasn't worked out, but rather the Raiders completely screwed the city of Henderson (the land/stadium is technically in Henderson, NV) by negotiating to purchase the land for $6 million (less than half the value of the land) only to turn around and sell the land in February of 2020 for $191 million ($185 million profit) and turnaround and sign a 99-ground lease with an investment group. Las Vegas implemented a hotel tax to help pay for the stadium over the next 20 years, yet the NFL team is able to profit off of a sweetheart deal handed to them under the guise of "economic development". Here is a story regarding the land shenanigans. It is shenanigans like this that allows a team to profit wildly while the city is fronting alot of capital (or in a bonds scenario, credit) to get these structures built. 

Luckily Metro owns the land and will not be selling it to the Titans, but it is a valuable lesson for the city (and hopefully the State) to pay attention too. The Raiders are an atrocious organization that has a history to back up that statement. One can only hope that the Titans ownership are better. I would hope the State, City and Team are all sitting around a table to discuss these terms. I can see a very volatile situation where the Titans get funding from the State, then while Metro is working out the right deal for the city the State steps in makes a mess of the situation under the guise of "economic development". 

And alot of that financial success can be connected to Nashville's success (not all of course, but alot of it). Success that has been had in spite of all the handcuffs the State puts on Metro. 

You are correct. However, the State didn't tell Metro to do irresponsible TIF deals after they had already started seeing waves of success. That has hampered metro's finances more than the State handcuffing metro. The State is driven by sales tax so, of course more tourism means more money.