To All the Trains I've Loved Before

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, HankStrong said:

I've always called it waffle.  My friend Sophia always says things like "That's peak brutalism!" and "It's very antagonistic in nature!" but she's exceptionally passionate about things like this.  Before she moved into the non-profit world, she was a young architect with a dream of rebuilding the world into a peaceful aesthetic.  Now she just growls a lot at buildings.

yes; waffle. thx...

[HankStrong]

Speaking of waffles and trains, I will next move to the Seattle transit system.  I say waffles, because the first thing I thought of when I went to Pioneer Square Station was that it looks remarkably like the DC Metro.  That's about the extent of the similarities.  I will confess that while Seattle has a fairly extensive mass transit system, I didn't use a ton of it.  My time there was limited, but I loved what I used.

They have 5 basic components: the monorail, light rail, heavy commuter rail, streetcars, and busses.

1. The monorail is a must ride because it's basically (kinda/sorta) like going to Disney a million years ago.  I never rode on a Disney Alweg train, but these are insanely retro with a pure late 50s/early 60s design of a future that never happened.  It's a really short trip, but one you should take. 
2. The light rail was fantastic at least the one in Seattle because I didn't get to Tacoma to try the other one.  They have new Seimens rolling stock since I was there, but the Mitsubishi ones were still pretty nice.  It got us around everywhere we needed to go and connected us to the streetcar.  It ran from our hotel to the airport which was great.  They are expanding the only line I rode and the one I didn't (Line 1 and Line T respectively) and adding a Line 2 right now.  Line 3 is deep into engineering and a Line 4 is being studied.  The best parts were that they seem to want to connect all the colleges/university sites, major employers, stadiums, airports, and the like together.  Imagine that?  Connecting people to places with mass transportation.  How modern!
3. I didn't ride the heavy commuter rail, but I'm insanely impressed by the commuter rail going over 80 miles from Everett, WA to Seattle and then to past Tacoma, WA on the other end.  That's impressive and worth noting.  It would be like the SunRail going from Daytona to Orlando to Tampa.
4. There are currently 2 streetcar lines and 1 in the works.  Another seems to be shelved for now.  The rolling stock were a little weird and I didn't really like them, but they did the job.  I looked them up and they are made by a Czech company which might explain the feeling that (while it was modern enough) I felt like I was in a car from somewhere completely foreign to me.  I can't really define it, but I didn't care for the cars at all.  
5. I didn't ride the busses, but saw them everywhere around town.  Seattle apparently used to have busses that did many things like ride rails and drive freely and run on gas and electric and batteries?  That's funky and cool.  The ones I saw looked like normal busses or if they were weird I didn't notice.

Two thumbs up for a system that pales in comparison to larger systems, but was highly effective and useful.  It also kept me out of the rain a lot.

 

 

[HankStrong]

I will briefly talk about the most insane train system I've been on in my life, the NYC Subway.  It will be very brief, though.  There isn't much you can say about the NYC Subway that movies and TV haven't shown over and over.

 

The filth.  Prior to riding the subway here, I assumed that (like so many other things in life) this was exaggerated for effect.  Nope.  I've been to NYC several times now and I've ridden the subway on most of those trips.  It's disgusting and I can't even imagine what it was like in the 70s/80s when everyone says it was so much worse.  It's like getting punched repeatedly in the face until both eyes are swollen shut, your mouth no longer works, and you can't breathe, but saying that's so much better than how it used to be.  What?  I saw rats.  I saw human feces.  I saw large amounts of blood.  I saw so much normal trash that I thought I might be imagining it.  The entire place is covered in what appears to be soot mixed with funk.

The rolling stock.  It doesn't even matter what kind they are.  They look like they are on death's door most of the time.

The people.  I've never seen human beings like the people on the NYC Subway.  Seriously.  I felt like I was walking into a live version of Men In Black walking around down there.

The floods.  The first time I was down in the subway when it started to pour up top I had no idea what to expect.  That water rolls down in sheets down those stairs. I've been in a lot of subways when it rained, but nothing like this.  I guess it just doesn't have anywhere else to go, but it's crazy.

 

One strong positive.  We bought MetroCards and they were both easy to use and easy to refill.  I'm not sure how long it will be until they change systems (or if they already have) but I've had mine for several years now and it's worked each time we've gone back.

[spenser1058]

It didn’t take long on my first visit to NYC to figure out “…your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” pretty much summed up the place quite apart from anything Emma Lazarus had to say about immigration.

I’m thankful that most of the things that have attracted folks to NYC in the past can generally be had in Anerica’s major cities these days and most of those seem to work better.

I just may be a good ol’ boy from the orange groves and don’t get it but I never really, even in my college days when I wanted to strike out on new adventures, considered NYC as a place to live.

Edited July 11, 2022 by spenser1058

[HankStrong]

15 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It didn’t take long on my first visit to NYC to figure out “…your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” pretty much summed up the place quite apart from anything Emma Lazarus had to say about immigration.

I’m thankful that most of the things that have attracted folks to NYC in the past can generally be had in Anerica’s major cities these days and most of those seem to work better.

I just may be a good ol’ boy from the orange groves and don’t get it but I never really, even in the college days when folks want to strike out on new adventures, considered NYC as a place to live.

I broke up with a girl over NYC.  She wanted us to move there and live some crazy dream in the Big Apple.  We were semi-serious, but not serious enough for me to follow her there when I had no desire to go.  We split and she moved there.  She lived in Brooklyn and split a tiny place with 3 roommates for a long-forgotten (by me) now, but insanely high price.  She couldn't afford that, but her parents were subsidizing some of it. She had a decent job, but later told me that it was the worst 2 years of her entire life.  She moved back to Merritt Island after that and eventually wound up in Seattle working for a tech company that supports the mega-companies up there.  She married a guy that works for one of them and has several kids now with granola names like (these are fake, but you get it) Tempranillo, Marzipan, and Epicurean.  I only make up fake names because their real names might be the only ones of those names in the world.  You can't have a Nathan, Becky, or Jessica up there! 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

It didn’t take long on my first visit to NYC to figure out “…your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” pretty much summed up the place quite apart from anything Emma Lazarus had to say about immigration.

I’m thankful that most of the things that have attracted folks to NYC in the past can generally be had in Anerica’s major cities these days and most of those seem to work better.

I just may be a good ol’ boy from the orange groves and don’t get it but I never really, even in my college days when I wanted to strike out on new adventures, considered NYC as a place to live.

it's hard to imagine.  but, I had an Uber driver ("had" meaning hired to give me a ride ("ride," meaning take me from point A to point B)) who was of some ethnicity- Asian derivative- and he told me he had NEVER left NYC his entire life; never left the CIty.  He was in his early 30's or so.  Wow. That's ju8st insane.  But if you're working all the time, when would you have the time I guess?

[spenser1058]

22 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

it's hard to imagine.  but, I had an Uber driver ("had" meaning hired to give me a ride ("ride," meaning take me from point A to point B)) who was of some ethnicity- Asian derivative- and he told me he had NEVER left NYC his entire life; never left the CIty.  He was in his early 30's or so.  Wow. That's ju8st insane.  But if you're working all the time, when would you have the time I guess?

Heaven knows, there are plenty of folks who are passionate in their feelings about NYC - heavens, listen to the song, “New York, New York”. They definitely should rock on but I just never got it. Admittedly, that’s just me. We’re all good.

[HankStrong]

18 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Heaven knows, there are plenty of folks who are passionate in their feelings about NYC - heavens, listen to the song, “New York, New York”. They definitely should rock on but I just never got it. Admittedly, that’s just me. We’re all good.

I work with a man today that "went to Georgia once and I didn't think it was that different from Florida, so I just stay in Florida now."

He's 50-ish and has left the state one time.  He said 99% of his life has been in Orange/Osceola/Lake/Polk counties.  Once or twice a year he goes to either coast for a beach visit.

He's never been on a commercial plane or a boat that held more than a few people.  He's never been in the ocean further than he could walk.

[jack]

19 hours ago, jrs2 said:

it's hard to imagine.  but, I had an Uber driver ("had" meaning hired to give me a ride ("ride," meaning take me from point A to point B)) who was of some ethnicity- Asian derivative- and he told me he had NEVER left NYC his entire life; never left the CIty.  He was in his early 30's or so.  Wow. That's ju8st insane.  But if you're working all the time, when would you have the time I guess?

I met a girl when I first moved here to Florida that never had left the state. She was 21 at the time. 

[smileguy]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:19 AM, HankStrong said:

Speaking of waffles and trains, I will next move to the Seattle transit system.  I say waffles, because the first thing I thought of when I went to Pioneer Square Station was that it looks remarkably like the DC Metro.  That's about the extent of the similarities.  I will confess that while Seattle has a fairly extensive mass transit system, I didn't use a ton of it.  My time there was limited, but I loved what I used.

They have 5 basic components: the monorail, light rail, heavy commuter rail, streetcars, and busses.

1. The monorail is a must ride because it's basically (kinda/sorta) like going to Disney a million years ago.  I never rode on a Disney Alweg train, but these are insanely retro with a pure late 50s/early 60s design of a future that never happened.  It's a really short trip, but one you should take. 
2. The light rail was fantastic at least the one in Seattle because I didn't get to Tacoma to try the other one.  They have new Seimens rolling stock since I was there, but the Mitsubishi ones were still pretty nice.  It got us around everywhere we needed to go and connected us to the streetcar.  It ran from our hotel to the airport which was great.  They are expanding the only line I rode and the one I didn't (Line 1 and Line T respectively) and adding a Line 2 right now.  Line 3 is deep into engineering and a Line 4 is being studied.  The best parts were that they seem to want to connect all the colleges/university sites, major employers, stadiums, airports, and the like together.  Imagine that?  Connecting people to places with mass transportation.  How modern!
3. I didn't ride the heavy commuter rail, but I'm insanely impressed by the commuter rail going over 80 miles from Everett, WA to Seattle and then to past Tacoma, WA on the other end.  That's impressive and worth noting.  It would be like the SunRail going from Daytona to Orlando to Tampa.
4. There are currently 2 streetcar lines and 1 in the works.  Another seems to be shelved for now.  The rolling stock were a little weird and I didn't really like them, but they did the job.  I looked them up and they are made by a Czech company which might explain the feeling that (while it was modern enough) I felt like I was in a car from somewhere completely foreign to me.  I can't really define it, but I didn't care for the cars at all.  
5. I didn't ride the busses, but saw them everywhere around town.  Seattle apparently used to have busses that did many things like ride rails and drive freely and run on gas and electric and batteries?  That's funky and cool.  The ones I saw looked like normal busses or if they were weird I didn't notice.

Two thumbs up for a system that pales in comparison to larger systems, but was highly effective and useful.  It also kept me out of the rain a lot.

Before the recent light rail expansions, the transit tunnel used to accommodate both electrified busses and trains.  I think that's changed due to system changes and more trains.  It was kind of cool to get off of a train from the airport and onto the local bus from the same platform.

[jrs2]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:58 PM, spenser1058 said:

Heaven knows, there are plenty of folks who are passionate in their feelings about NYC - heavens, listen to the song, “New York, New York”. They definitely should rock on but I just never got it. Admittedly, that’s just me. We’re all good.

it's the ultimate urban setting...

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

it's the ultimate urban setting...

It certainly is that.

[HankStrong]

Since I'm mostly sticking to the US, I'd like to go to Valley Metro next in Phoenix.  It's been several years now since I've been to Phoenix, but it's a favorite.  I refer to it as the Taco Capital of the US because it is an amazing place to eat tacos.  My sister used to live out there, so I've had some local love to see the best places.  As a train nerd, I've watched the system that I used expand like wildfire!

Their system is three-fold with busses, a small streetcar loop, and a light rail train.  I have not rode the busses, but I'm not a bus guy unless I have to be.  The streetcar loop just opened, so I haven't ridden that.  I'm excited to do so because they are running the Brookville Liberty rolling stock on that line and they look awesome.  I haven't rode one of their trains yet.  The last bit is the light rail.

 

Phoenix is a very unique metro area, especially compared with our area.  Locals refer to it as Sun Valley or just The Valley, but it's really like 10 cities (like 100k people+) smashed into one.  It's giant, it's spread out, and there are so many people.

Valley Metro Rail is currently just one line, but it's a doozie.  When I was last there it ran over 20 miles from near where my Airbnb was just North of downtown Phoenix to Mesa.  It was handy, if a little limited, but I didn't have to rent a car.  We did hitch an Uber and a ride from my sister to hang out with her friends, so it wasn't the only transportation we needed.  It just runs in a straight line, so we did compensate by picking dining along that route.  It now runs almost 30 miles and links with the streetcar, which is a 14-stop loop around downtown that compares to our Lymmo service.  The light rail cars rolling stock were Kinki Sharyo models which have a real Japanese feel to them.  They were snub-nose and plain.  That could use some upgrading.  They were very comfortable and easy to get in/out of.  It connects to the Sky Train at the airport, so that was very handy.

The system is expanding in a huge way.  They are currently building another line that will mesh with the existing one at the downtown stations.  it will take you 5 miles down into an underserved residential part of town.  One of the most exciting things is that they have decided to use SHOPPING MALLS as hubs for this system.  Whether the mall has pretty much failed or is still active, they are running the trains to those and building their offices there.  One failed mall looks like it's going to be their new HQ.  These were chosen due to having plenty of space and plenty of parking for riders.  The hope is that even the failing ones will get a little life because they will have the captive audience of riders.

They are also expanding West by 3 miles and that is under construction.  An additional 11 mile extension is in the late end of the planning stage, so the main line will run almost 50 miles in the very near future.  Those extensions are with a few old malls along the way.  They have 4 further spur lines in the planning phase, one of which is being protested against because it runs toward a wealthier part of town.  NIMBYs are everywhere.

 

It's a nice ride, if a bit linear.  Solid train system.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by HankStrong

[spenser1058]

39 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Since I'm mostly sticking to the US, I'd like to go to Valley Metro next in Phoenix.  It's been several years now since I've been to Phoenix, but it's a favorite.  I refer to it as the Taco Capital of the US because it is an amazing place to eat tacos.  My sister used to live out there, so I've had some local love to see the best places.  As a train nerd, I've watched the system that I used expand like wildfire!

Their system is three-fold with busses, a small streetcar loop, and a light rail train.  I have not rode the busses, but I'm not a bus guy unless I have to be.  The streetcar loop just opened, so I haven't ridden that.  I'm excited to do so because they are running the Brookville Liberty rolling stock on that line and they look awesome.  I haven't rode one of their trains yet.  The last bit is the light rail.

 

Phoenix is a very unique metro area, especially compared with our area.  Locals refer to it as Sun Valley or just The Valley, but it's really like 10 cities (like 100k people+) smashed into one.  It's giant, it's spread out, and there are so many people.

Valley Metro Rail is currently just one line, but it's a doozie.  When I was last there it ran over 20 miles from near where my Airbnb was just North of downtown Phoenix to Mesa.  It was handy, if a little limited, but I didn't have to rent a car.  We did hitch an Uber and a ride from my sister to hang out with her friends, so it wasn't the only transportation we needed.  It just runs in a straight line, so we did compensate by picking dining along that route.  It now runs almost 30 miles and links with the streetcar, which is a 14-stop loop around downtown that compares to our Lymmo service.  The light rail cars rolling stock were Kinki Sharyo models which have a real Japanese feel to them.  They were snub-nose and plain.  That could use some upgrading.  They were very comfortable and easy to get in/out of.  It connects to the Sky Train at the airport, so that was very handy.

The system is expanding in a huge way.  They are currently building another line that will mesh with the existing one at the downtown stations.  it will take you 5 miles down into an underserved residential part of town.  One of the most exciting things is that they have decided to use SHOPPING MALLS as hubs for this system.  Whether the mall has pretty much failed or is still active, they are running the trains to those and building their offices there.  One failed mall looks like it's going to be their new HQ.  These were chosen due to having plenty of space and plenty of parking for riders.  The hope is that even the failing ones will get a little life because they will have the captive audience of riders.

They are also expanding West by 3 miles and that is under construction.  An additional 11 mile extension is in the late end of the planning stage, so the main line will run almost 50 miles in the very near future.  Those extensions are with a few old malls along the way.  They have 4 further spur lines in the planning phase, one of which is being protested against because it runs toward a wealthier part of town.  NIMBYs are everywhere.

 

It's a nice ride, if a bit linear.  Solid train system.

 

Everybody sing, “By the time I get to Phoenix, I’ll have tacos…” I do love me some tacos! Great report.

[HankStrong]

If we could ever get an East/West light rail line, the thought of using West Oaks, Fashion Square, and Waterford Lakes as mini-hubs would be insane.

Plus we could get more taco places.

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

If we could ever get an East/West light rail line, the thought of using West Oaks, Fashion Square, and Waterford Lakes as mini-hubs would be insane.

Plus we could get more taco places.

That is a good idea for Sunbelt cities - I’m surprised we haven’t seen more of that.

Of course, the first place I ever went on MARTA rail was to Lenox Square.

Edited July 15, 2022 by spenser1058

[HankStrong]

I'm going to next move on to a system that I didn't care for that much, the MBTA or the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.  Also known in beer commercials as "YOUR COUSIN FROM BAAAAAAH-STIN"  I will start by saying that I've nothing but sad to bad experiences with the system in my many times in Boston.  I've basically just abandoned the thought of using it, although thanks to COVID it's been quite some time since I've been there.

They have both a commuter rail system and a subway.  The subway is problematic because it is very haphazard in design.  I'm very literate in train-based transportation and I think this thread shows (and will show) that I've been on a lot of the major systems in the US and several around the world.  This one isn't a good one.  Nothing was clear and nothing seemed to make a lot of sense.  I witnessed what appeared to be locals going "crap, I got on the wrong one again" and general frustration.  It's common for systems around the world (namely NYC, Paris, London) to have train lines that run to multiple end destinations, but Boston's just seemed obnoxious to see which line you were on.  I think it's because they go so insanely far past the split.  It's not like you're picking a green line and saying "well, as long as I get off before the last 3 stops, it doesn't matter which one I get on" because the Boston green line has 4 choices with like 10-20 stops past the Copley station.

A positive was that I could take it from Logan airport to my hotel, but just barely.  It was awful getting even carry-on luggage around. I don't like this at all.  I also found myself taking way too many long trips on the subway to get to places that were relatively close to each other as the crow flies.  I even had to get off the same train line to switch to other cars.  It was pretty obnoxious. 

I also have used the commuter rail system for one trip.  It was also a mess.  I took the train down to Plymouth to see the rock of fame there.  Wow, what a treasure that is!  I'm kidding because it's just about the single most useless piece of history you could ever go see.  Please don't go.  It's just a rock with 1620 carved into it and it may or may not be related to any historical Plymouth Rock as they have no real idea.  However, this rock was chosen to be IT.  I've saved you a trip by attaching it below.  However, the nice pass I bought to come here wouldn't be enough.  Somehow the train stopped running to Plymouth in the brief time it took to take in the awe that was a rock in Plymouth with 1620 carved into it.  I went back to the station and there were no more trains.  I didn't find out if that was due to missing a scheduling note or because they had a personal vendetta against me for mocking the stupid rock or a maintenance issue.  I had to take a cab to a station that the cabbie *knew* was still running because he'd just dropped someone off there.  He was correct, but now I had to pay cab fare and my rail pass just to return.  It was frustrating, but the cabbie was great.

The trains were all fairly dirty and neither the commuter rail nor the subway rides were enjoyable.  I had a paper CharlieCard (there is a 50s song reference, but I never cared to figure it out) but I did read that they are going to upgrade their entire fare system this year to a combined phone app or reusable care system.  

 

The lack of convenience and problems I had make this a solid C- for me.

[spenser1058]

27 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I'm going to next move on to a system that I didn't care for that much, the MBTA or the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.  Also known in beer commercials as "YOUR COUSIN FROM BAAAAAAH-STIN"  I will start by saying that I've nothing but sad to bad experiences with the system in my many times in Boston.  I've basically just abandoned the thought of using it, although thanks to COVID it's been quite some time since I've been there.

They have both a commuter rail system and a subway.  The subway is problematic because it is very haphazard in design.  I'm very literate in train-based transportation and I think this thread shows (and will show) that I've been on a lot of the major systems in the US and several around the world.  This one isn't a good one.  Nothing was clear and nothing seemed to make a lot of sense.  I witnessed what appeared to be locals going "crap, I got on the wrong one again" and general frustration.  It's common for systems around the world (namely NYC, Paris, London) to have train lines that run to multiple end destinations, but Boston's just seemed obnoxious to see which line you were on.  I think it's because they go so insanely far past the split.  It's not like you're picking a green line and saying "well, as long as I get off before the last 3 stops, it doesn't matter which one I get on" because the Boston green line has 4 choices with like 10-20 stops past the Copley station.

A positive was that I could take it from Logan airport to my hotel, but just barely.  It was awful getting even carry-on luggage around. I don't like this at all.  I also found myself taking way too many long trips on the subway to get to places that were relatively close to each other as the crow flies.  I even had to get off the same train line to switch to other cars.  It was pretty obnoxious. 

I also have used the commuter rail system for one trip.  It was also a mess.  I took the train down to Plymouth to see the rock of fame there.  Wow, what a treasure that is!  I'm kidding because it's just about the single most useless piece of history you could ever go see.  Please don't go.  It's just a rock with 1620 carved into it and it may or may not be related to any historical Plymouth Rock as they have no real idea.  However, this rock was chosen to be IT.  I've saved you a trip by attaching it below.  However, the nice pass I bought to come here wouldn't be enough.  Somehow the train stopped running to Plymouth in the brief time it took to take in the awe that was a rock in Plymouth with 1620 carved into it.  I went back to the station and there were no more trains.  I didn't find out if that was due to missing a scheduling note or because they had a personal vendetta against me for mocking the stupid rock or a maintenance issue.  I had to take a cab to a station that the cabbie *knew* was still running because he'd just dropped someone off there.  He was correct, but now I had to pay cab fare and my rail pass just to return.  It was frustrating, but the cabbie was great.

The trains were all fairly dirty and neither the commuter rail nor the subway rides were enjoyable.  I had a paper CharlieCard (there is a 50s song reference, but I never cared to figure it out) but I did read that they are going to upgrade their entire fare system this year to a combined phone app or reusable care system.  

 

The lack of convenience and problems I had make this a solid C- for me.

Avoid the Yankee propaganda - by the time the Pilgrims got here, St. Augustine had started urban renewal! <eg>

[HankStrong]

The Mistake on the Lake enters the room.  The RTA line in Cleveland.  I would knock the town more, but the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame is there and that's cool.  The worst part about riding the RTA in Cleveland is that you have to be in Cleveland to do it.

The system in Cleveland is a litte unique.  They have four lines, but they don't really have four lines.

1. The red line goes from airport to downtown on heavy rail.  They are rolling monstrous Tokyu stock from the early 1980s.  I've never ridden this one as (despite being to Cleveland several times) I've never flown into the airport.  They look ancient, but they refurb them as needed.
2. The green line light rail goes from Green Road to Shaker Square on its own.  This is 11 independent stops.  It merges routes with the blue line at this point and shares 13 additional stops with it.
3. The blue line light rail goes from Warrensville to Shaker Square on its own.  This is 11 independent stops.  It merges routes with the green line at this point and shares 13 additional stops with it.
4. The waterfront line isn't a real line, but is a name only line for the 6 Western-most stops on the blue/green lines.

The amount of shared lines in all the areas you'd probably need to go makes it difficult to call these separate lines.  If you live on one of those 11 end stops sure, but most people visiting won't use those stops at all.  The light rail lines use ancient 1980 Breda rolling stock.

Basically, if you went to Cleveland (assuming it wasn't a hostage situation) you could use this to get from the airport to downtown and you would very likely find a hotel/AirBnB along the route you might like.  You can take the train to a Cleveland Browns football game, a Cleveland Ind Guardians baseball game, a Cleveland Cavaliers basketball game, or visit the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame.  My cousin lived in Cleveland in the 00s and said he would take an Amtrak out to Cedar Point, but that's like 45-60 minutes West of town, so I'm assuming it would be 60-90 minutes on the Amtrak.  I wouldn't know where the Amtrak stop closest to Cedar Point is or if you'd then have to take a cab/Uber to the park or not. I'm sure the train stops in downtown Sandusky and the park is out on an island in the lake, so I'm guessing you would but it would be less than 5 miles for sure.

It functions and it's hideous.  B-

Edited July 21, 2022 by HankStrong

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

The Mistake on the Lake enters the room.  The RTA line in Cleveland.  I would knock the town more, but the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame is there and that's cool.  The worst part about riding the RTA in Cleveland is that you have to be in Cleveland to do it.

The system in Cleveland is a litte unique.  They have four lines, but they don't really have four lines.

1. The red line goes from airport to downtown on heavy rail.  They are rolling monstrous Tokyu stock from the early 1980s.  I've never ridden this one as (despite being to Cleveland several times) I've never flown into the airport.  They look ancient, but they refurb them as needed.
2. The green line light rail goes from Green Road to Shaker Square on its own.  This is 11 independent stops.  It merges routes with the blue line at this point and shares 13 additional stops with it.
3. The blue line light rail goes from Warrensville to Shaker Square on its own.  This is 11 independent stops.  It merges routes with the green line at this point and shares 13 additional stops with it.
4. The waterfront line isn't a real line, but is a name only line for the 6 Western-most stops on the blue/green lines.

The amount of shared lines in all the areas you'd probably need to go makes it difficult to call these separate lines.  If you live on one of those 11 end stops, sure, but most people visiting won't use those stops at all.  The light rail lines use ancient 1980 Breda rolling stock.

Basically, if you went to Cleveland (assuming it wasn't a hostage situation) you could use this to get from the airport to downtown and you would very likely find a hotel/AirBnB along the route you might like.  You can take the train to a Cleveland Browns football game, a Cleveland Ind Guardians baseball game, a Cleveland Cavaliers basketball game, or visit the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame.  My cousin lived in Cleveland in the 00s and said he would take an Amtrak out to Cedar Point, but that's like 45-60 Amtrak West of town, so I'm assuming it would be 60-90 minutes on the Amtrak.  I wouldn't know where the Amtrak stop closest to Cedar Point is or if you'd then have to take a cab/Uber to the park or not. I'm sure the train stops in downtown Sandusky and the park is out on an island in the lake, so I'm guessing you would but it would be less than 5 miles for sure.

It functions and it's hideous.  B-

If only Dennis Kucinich had built his monorail around the city (wags at the time said if he had, they could have charged admission, but who’d want to pay to get into Cleveland unless it was to watch the river on fire again..?)

Edited July 21, 2022 by spenser1058

[HankStrong]

Staying in the lovely state of Ohio, I'll move next to the Cincinnati Bell Connector AKA the Cincy Streetcar.

A fascinating piece of trivia that maybe only @spenser1058would appreciate is that Cincinnati is the proud home to the largest unfinished subway in the US.  It was a town built on beer/pork products and Prohibition beat the crap out of Cincinnati.  This lack of beer income stalled the subway in 1927 and the Great Depression that followed permanently killed it.  The plan was to reuse the then defunct (and now mostly forgotten) Miami & Erie canal path.  This canal was an eyesore after trains killed canals as the first path.  Almost 3 miles of underground was built and still exists to this day.  It's either dead or used by the city to store salt/salt trucks for winter storms.  I've been down there twice as a part of gray-market tours.  It's gross and fascinating at the same time.

Flash forward to the mid-90s when I happened to live in downtown Cincy and the talk of reviving the subway was all the rage.  This never happened.  The city did an evaluation and found out that it would cost billions of dollars they didn't have.  Some of the routes didn't even go anywhere important any more and none of the tunnels were safe enough for hard use.  That's what happens after 70 years of disuse.  After I moved away they came up with many ideas and none of them panned out.   An aboveground streetcar was proposed and the idea really took off.  This probably tickles Spense, but I'll mention that politically-speaking this streetcar was a doozy.  It was WILDLY popular among the residents and INSANELY unpopular among the city's politicians.  The governor hated it.  The mayor hated it.  The council hated it.  The people said "Screw you!" and voted out anyone local who hated it.  The newly-elected pro-street car politicians voted to proceed.  Imagine that?  The streetcar was built.  Local politics in action!  I'm not political in nature, but how can you expect to survive in an environment (at least locally) where you just ignore that the voters overwhelmingly say NO to anti-rail initiatives and YES to pro-rail initiatives over and over and over again?  They just said "Our constituents are stupid and we're ignoring them."  They weren't their constituents for much longer.

Cincinnati Bell has since taken over naming rights and the system is free to use.

The system is small.  It only runs about 4 miles right now, but it hits the big areas of downtown.  It's very comparable to the LYMMO of Orlando, but is very easy to use.

It starts down at the Ohio River where the Bengals stadium, Reds ballpark, and the biggest arena in town are located.  You can also visit the new town hotspot called The Banks here.  There are breweries, bars, stores, food, and a bunch of condos here now where (when I lived there) nothing but garbage and industrial wasteland used to be.  The Underground Railroad Museum is also here.  This is an amazing visit if you ever go.  The streetcar takes you right up the heart of downtown hitting all the big things like the library, both of the big places to see shows (the modern Aronoff Center for plays, off-Broadway, etc. and the classic Music Hall from the 1800s), the casino, Findley Market, about 20 breweries, and Washington Park.  I should note that when I lived there, you couldn't visit Washington Park as it was listed as one of the most dangerous places in the entire state.  Seeing actual dead people wasn't unusual.  I can't count the number of times I saw heroin users with needles hanging out of their arms passed out as I was driving by.  If someone died in town, your first guess was Washington Park.  They leveled the entire park, built a massive parking garage under it, put in a police station, and gentrified the entire block.  It was directly across the street from Music Hall where some of the most prestigious events in town took place and it was scary.  Imagine walking out of a show you paid $500 for your ticket to and seeing a dead body about 50 feet away or ducking from gunfire.  I went there in 2018 and visited Washington Park for my first time ever.

They are studying multiple extensions and Northern Kentucky has been looking into crossing the river to join up with them, but nothing in the works since COVID hit.  The rolling stock are Spanish CAF trains with easy access low floors.  The seats are comfortable and there is a lot of room on the trains.  I like them a lot.

I stayed in an AirBnB in my old building on my last visit and used the streetcar the entire visit.  I hit an astounding number of breweries and never had to drive.  It was awesome.  I went to all of my favorite restaurants (at least those that were still open) and bars.  They were all along the route and easy to get to.  The route along the streetcar is 1000x nicer than when I lived there and it has made a massive improvement to the area.

Edited August 9, 2022 by HankStrong

[HankStrong]

I should note it runs 7 days a week, for a minimum of 16 hours a day.

[spenser1058]

18 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Staying in the lovely state of Ohio, I'll move next to the Cincinnati Bell Connector AKA the Cincy Streetcar.

A fascinating piece of trivia that maybe only @spenser1058would appreciate is that Cincinnati is the proud home to the largest unfinished subway in the US.  It was a town built on beer/pork products and Prohibition beat the crap out of Cincinnati.  This lack of beer income stalled the subway in 1927 and the Great Depression that followed permanently killed it.  The plan was to reuse the then defunct (and now mostly forgotten) Miami & Erie canal path.  This canal was an eyesore after trains killed canals as the first path.  Almost 3 miles of underground was built and still exists to this day.  It's either dead or used by the city to store salt/salt trucks for winter storms.  I've been down there twice as a part of gray-market tours.  It's gross and fascinating at the same time.

Flash forward to the mid-90s when I happened to live in downtown Cincy and the talk of reviving the subway was all the rage.  This never happened.  The city did an evaluation and found out that it would cost billions of dollars they didn't have.  Some of the routes didn't even go anywhere important any more and none of the tunnels were safe enough for hard use.  That's what happens after 70 years of disuse.  After I moved away they came up with many ideas and none of them panned out.   An aboveground streetcar was proposed and the idea really took off.  This probably tickles Spense, but I'll mention that politically-speaking this streetcar was a doozy.  It was WILDLY popular among the residents and INSANELY unpopular among the city's politicians.  The governor hated it.  The mayor hated it.  The council hated it.  The people said "Screw you!" and voted out anyone local who hated it.  The newly-elected pro-street car politicians voted to proceed.  Imagine that?  The streetcar was built.  Local politics in action!  I'm not political in nature, but how can you expect to survive in an environment (at least locally) where you just ignore that the voters overwhelmingly say NO to anti-rail initiatives and YES to pro-rail initiatives over and over and over again?  They just said "Our constituents are stupid and we're ignoring them."  They weren't their constituents for much longer.

Cincinnati Bell has since taken over naming rights and the system is free to use.

The system is small.  It only runs about 4 miles right now, but it hits the big areas of downtown.  It's very comparable to the LYMMO of Orlando, but is very easy to use.

It starts down at the Ohio River where the Bengals stadium, Reds ballpark, and the biggest arena in town are located.  You can also visit the new town hotspot called The Banks here.  There are breweries, bars, stores, food, and a bunch of condos here now where (when I lived there) nothing but garbage and industrial wasteland used to be.  The Underground Railroad Museum is also here.  This is an amazing visit if you ever go.  The streetcar takes you right up the heart of downtown hitting all the big things like the library, both of the big places to see shows (the modern Aronoff Center for plays, off-Broadway, etc. and the classic Music Hall from the 1800s), the casino, Findley Market, about 20 breweries, and Washington Park.  I should note that when I lived there, you couldn't visit Washington Park as it was listed as one of the most dangerous places in the entire state.  Seeing actual dead people wasn't unusual.  I can't count the number of times I saw heroin users with needles hanging out of their arms passed out.  If someone died in town, your first guess was Washington Park.  They leveled the entire park, built a massive parking garage under it, put in a police station, and gentrified the entire block.  It was directly across the street from Music Hall where some of the most prestigious events in town took place and it was scary.  Imagine walking out of a show you paid $500 for your ticket to and seeing a dead body about 50 feet away or ducking from gunfire.  I went there in 2018 and visited Washington Park for my first time ever.

They are studying multiple extensions and Northern Kentucky has been looking into crossing the river to join up with them, but nothing in the works since COVID hit.  The rolling stock are Spanish CAF trains with easy access low floors.  The seats are comfortable and there is a lot of room on the trains.  I like them a lot.

I stayed in an AirBnB in my old building on my last visit and used the streetcar the entire visit.  I hit an astounding number of breweries and never had to drive.  It was awesome.  I went to all of my favorite restaurants (at least those that were still open) and bars.  They were all along the route and easy to get to.  The route along the streetcar is 1000x nicer than when I lived there and it has made a massive improvement to the area.

* @spenser1058is tickled*

[prahaboheme]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:22 AM, HankStrong said:

I'm going to next move on to a system that I didn't care for that much, the MBTA or the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.  Also known in beer commercials as "YOUR COUSIN FROM BAAAAAAH-STIN"  I will start by saying that I've nothing but sad to bad experiences with the system in my many times in Boston.  I've basically just abandoned the thought of using it, although thanks to COVID it's been quite some time since I've been there.

They have both a commuter rail system and a subway.  The subway is problematic because it is very haphazard in design.  I'm very literate in train-based transportation and I think this thread shows (and will show) that I've been on a lot of the major systems in the US and several around the world.  This one isn't a good one.  Nothing was clear and nothing seemed to make a lot of sense.  I witnessed what appeared to be locals going "crap, I got on the wrong one again" and general frustration.  It's common for systems around the world (namely NYC, Paris, London) to have train lines that run to multiple end destinations, but Boston's just seemed obnoxious to see which line you were on.  I think it's because they go so insanely far past the split.  It's not like you're picking a green line and saying "well, as long as I get off before the last 3 stops, it doesn't matter which one I get on" because the Boston green line has 4 choices with like 10-20 stops past the Copley station.

A positive was that I could take it from Logan airport to my hotel, but just barely.  It was awful getting even carry-on luggage around. I don't like this at all.  I also found myself taking way too many long trips on the subway to get to places that were relatively close to each other as the crow flies.  I even had to get off the same train line to switch to other cars.  It was pretty obnoxious. 

I also have used the commuter rail system for one trip.  It was also a mess.  I took the train down to Plymouth to see the rock of fame there.  Wow, what a treasure that is!  I'm kidding because it's just about the single most useless piece of history you could ever go see.  Please don't go.  It's just a rock with 1620 carved into it and it may or may not be related to any historical Plymouth Rock as they have no real idea.  However, this rock was chosen to be IT.  I've saved you a trip by attaching it below.  However, the nice pass I bought to come here wouldn't be enough.  Somehow the train stopped running to Plymouth in the brief time it took to take in the awe that was a rock in Plymouth with 1620 carved into it.  I went back to the station and there were no more trains.  I didn't find out if that was due to missing a scheduling note or because they had a personal vendetta against me for mocking the stupid rock or a maintenance issue.  I had to take a cab to a station that the cabbie *knew* was still running because he'd just dropped someone off there.  He was correct, but now I had to pay cab fare and my rail pass just to return.  It was frustrating, but the cabbie was great.

The trains were all fairly dirty and neither the commuter rail nor the subway rides were enjoyable.  I had a paper CharlieCard (there is a 50s song reference, but I never cared to figure it out) but I did read that they are going to upgrade their entire fare system this year to a combined phone app or reusable care system.  

 

The lack of convenience and problems I had make this a solid C- for me.

Most people ride the Green Line when in Boston and maintain this impression of the system as a whole — dirty, chaotic, confusing . Indeed the green line is very frustrating although for me it was actually because the stations were so frequent (especially when above ground B, C lines, and they were so cramped in with students that it’s actually easiest in places to just walk—which in Boston can be more convenient since the city is literally old cow paths.

On the other hand it is one of only a few transit systems in the country that grew up around the layout of the city (a “hub” if you will) that it can be very convenient to access from large parts of Boston, Cambridge, Somerville). If you are experiencing those Green Line stops from Boylston to Tremont it looks very antiqued as these stations have changed little since the late 19th century (America’s oldest underground stations).

The commuter rail is one of the best, if not the best in the country of accessibility to bedroom communities on the north abd south shores, as well as west of Boston, heavily used daily for commuters.

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by prahaboheme

[prahaboheme]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:51 AM, spenser1058 said:

Avoid the Yankee propaganda - by the time the Pilgrims got here, St. Augustine had started urban renewal! <eg>

Not to further poke an open wound but the Pilgrims actually didn’t land in Plymouth first (so not only is the rock a useless plug of American history it’s also not even Pilgrim history).

The Pilgrims first set foot in present day Provincetown on Cape Cod. When they felt that the bay in Provincetown was not suitable and the terrain of the area was too difficult for habitation they moved up to Plymouth.

Let Plymouth  keep it’s rock and it’s tourists. Provincetown does not need them!