Is something big coming?

[Cookin_peacocks]

8 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Someone reached out to me to see if I knew the admin of this site, and I said I did of course, but never heard back again. I assumed they wanted the images pulled. The cat's kind of out-of-the-bag now.

Interesting that DPFox bought the Big Boy site now. 

 

I really hope someone wasn't fired for sharing the secrets. 

 

Kinda funny though. I can now share a little interaction I had with someone from GA2 some time ago when I jokingly (half) if she had a position at GA2 open for me for ideas on future projects (cause I'm excellent at spending other people's money) and she said no, but asked if I knew anything about soccer.

 

I thought she was just teasing but I guess she was giving me the vaguest of hints

Edited September 1, 2022 by Cookin_peacocks

[GRDadof3]

8 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

I really hope someone wasn't fired for sharing the secrets. 

 

Kinda funny though. I can now share a little interaction I had with someone from GA2 some time ago when I jokingly (half) if she had a position at GA2 open for me for ideas on future projects (cause I'm excellent at spending other people's money) and she said no, but asked if I knew anything about soccer.

 

I thought she was just teasing but I guess she was giving me the vaguest of hints

I don't think so. Probably just a reprimanding. If it costs them the client though, then.... lol. 

 

[GRLaker]

23 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I don't think so. Probably just a reprimanding. If it costs them the client though, then.... lol. 

 

Isn't said poster the sheriff of Barry County? It's a rare enough name that I'd be shocked if there was more than one in our area.

[MJLO]

Curious to know how folks on here feel about such a niche venue?  How many does downtown need?  
 

I know soccer is gaining momentum, but still a 7k seat soccer stadium has a very limited scope of use I’d imagine.  Not “game changer” IMO . It’s too small to be impactful for football, and you have three other larger venues for concerts(assuming amphitheater gets built) Seems like a lot of $ for redundant space on what could be used for other premium means in the future.   I’d be much more excited if they put their energy behind something that was multipurpose.  
 

Dan Devos has long been a proponent of W Michigan sports.  I wonder why he doesn’t put that energy behind bringing  a D1/FBS football program on the west side.  Seems it could give the city much better exposure in the long run. 

[GR8scott]

12 minutes ago, MJLO said:

Curious to know how folks on here feel about such a niche venue?  How many does downtown need?  
 

I know soccer is gaining momentum, but still a 7k seat soccer stadium has a very limited scope of use I’d imagine.  Not “game changer” IMO . It’s too small to be impactful for football, and you have three other larger venues for concerts(assuming amphitheater gets built) Seems like a lot of $ for redundant space on what could be used for other premium means in the future.   I’d be much more excited if they put their energy behind something that was multipurpose.  
 

Dan Devos has long been a proponent of W Michigan sports.  I wonder why he doesn’t put that energy behind bringing  a D1/FBS football program on the west side.  Seems it could give the city much better exposure in the long run. 

Completely agree, and unfortunately no mention of football/GVSU in the article. It does mention the amphitheater but makes you wonder if there a possibility to combine all 3? soccer/football and concerts in one centralized walkable location and maybe with some skyline views and around the 12-15k seating range? It would be a shame if this goes through and is underwhelming and the amphitheater is downsized then you have two new projects taking up valuable space to go along with an unfinished arena, a baseball park in the suburbs and the largest city without a D1 football team. 

[Jonesey]

3 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Someone reached out to me to see if I knew the admin of this site, and I said I did of course, but never heard back again. I assumed they wanted the images pulled. The cat's kind of out-of-the-bag now.

Interesting that DPFox bought the Big Boy site now. 

 

Heya folks, long time lurker, first time poster!  So excited for this project! Please don't give up our "deep throat" @GRDadof3!!!   .   I don't think the person did it maliciously and obviously took everything  down once they realized this wasn't meant to be public.  From the MiBiz article it sounded like there were a lot of people working on it.  

Even if it's not a stadium, it sounds like the property will be redeveloped eventually.  I'm glad the Kum N Go isn't happening and a little disappointed the planning commish was ready to green light it.  That would would have never been redeveloped.  I wonder what their other possible sites would be?  The only thing large enough near downtown would be the Fulton/Market Parking lot or maybe Padnos?

I really like the idea of this and the amphitheater, is there anyway they could combine them into one venue?  Are there any Soccer Stadiums/Amphitheaters that exist?  I know you could have Concerts at a soccer stadium, but would that be too awkward?  Can't be any worse than playing football or hockey on a baseball field.  I mean the $125M for each would give you a $250M budget and it empty less as often.

[Cookin_peacocks]

I'm mixed on this. 

 

I'm a huge sports fan and think another sports venue downtown would really add to the feel of the city. 

 

That said, I also feel this is a missed opportunity. I'd love to see this area developed as an extension of the skyline, and add vibrant ground floor spaces. Or, of a stadium is in the cards, a baseball stadium, because LMCU field is dated and baseball draws better. 

 

But as a fan of city development, a soccer stadium isnt the worst idea. I just wish it was thought of elsewhere. Like Padnos. 

Not super super excited, but it surely beats vacant lots and a Kum and go.

[Jonesey]

26 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

I'm mixed on this. 

 

I'm a huge sports fan and think another sports venue downtown would really add to the feel of the city. 

 

That said, I also feel this is a missed opportunity. I'd love to see this area developed as an extension of the skyline, and add vibrant ground floor spaces. Or, of a stadium is in the cards, a baseball stadium, because LMCU field is dated and baseball draws better. 

 

But as a fan of city development, a soccer stadium isnt the worst idea. I just wish it was thought of elsewhere. Like Padnos. 

Not super super excited, but it surely beats vacant lots and a Kum and go.

I was actually thinking the same thing.  Padnos would be much better, especially with GVSU's endless parking.  The current proposed location would be a lot better for "grabbing food and a drink before the game".  I also can't imagine the amount of ground contamination on the Padnos site, but then again, it's the DeVos', so they'll figure out how to milk it.

[cstonesparty]

2 hours ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

Or, of a stadium is in the cards, a baseball stadium, because LMCU field is dated and baseball draws better. 

This comes up a couple times a year…. LMCU is privately owned and a cash cow.  Until Chamberlain and Baxter decide to retire and sell the club to DP Fox, the ballpark ain’t moving.  (and probably not then either)

[Cookin_peacocks]

5 minutes ago, cstonesparty said:

This comes up a couple times a year…. LMCU is privately owned and a cash cow.  Until Chamberlain and Baxter decide to retire and sell the club to DP Fox, the ballpark ain’t moving.  (and probably not then either)

I know why they won't, but it's a damn shame. 

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, Jonesey said:

Heya folks, long time lurker, first time poster!  So excited for this project! Please don't give up our "deep throat" @GRDadof3!!!   .   I don't think the person did it maliciously and obviously took everything  down once they realized this wasn't meant to be public.  From the MiBiz article it sounded like there were a lot of people working on it.  

Even if it's not a stadium, it sounds like the property will be redeveloped eventually.  I'm glad the Kum N Go isn't happening and a little disappointed the planning commish was ready to green light it.  That would would have never been redeveloped.  I wonder what their other possible sites would be?  The only thing large enough near downtown would be the Fulton/Market Parking lot or maybe Padnos?

I really like the idea of this and the amphitheater, is there anyway they could combine them into one venue?  Are there any Soccer Stadiums/Amphitheaters that exist?  I know you could have Concerts at a soccer stadium, but would that be too awkward?  Can't be any worse than playing football or hockey on a baseball field.  I mean the $125M for each would give you a $250M budget and it empty less as often.

Hey I didn't spill the beans on this one, and I have basically zero recriminations on me if I did put something on here that wasn't ready for prime time. Unless it was for one of my clients which their line of business doesn't really align with urban development projects. But the OP pulling his post and the images doesn't really stop the fact that they were copied onto responses over and over again. 

But I think the Padnos site is a terrible site for a stadium. Why do we keep trying to create these "pods" of development clusters that take 20 - 30 years to build out? The West Side DASH lots are plug-n-play and there's still plenty of room for mixed use all around it. I've said it once and I'll say it again, we AREN'T Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Portland or Denver. And we never will be. We should be one kick-ass Grand Rapids but we're not going to have massive numbers of 50 story buildings scattered throughout the downtown area. We're just not growing fast enough (our growth slowed during the pandemic for the first time in quite a while). Those other places just kept growing, faster. 

And building a venue that you can watch ColdPlay and also they can host a soccer game is LAME in my opinion. That seems like Dayton Ohio amateur hour. An amphitheater provides a completely unique experience. A soccer stadium provides a completely unique experience. If you've ever seen a live concert at LMCU ballpark, you know what I'm talking about. It's LAME. 

Plus, I don't follow sports and most people don't follow sports that closely. Do people REALLY care about D-1 vs D-whatever teams? 

End rant.  

[Pattmost20]

29 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Plus, I don't follow sports and most people don't follow sports that closely. Do people REALLY care about D-1 vs D-whatever teams? 

I would believe they would want full control of the stadium and if they do rent it out for other events, they probably want something less use intensive than Football.

[joeDowntown]

I saw GRFC play a match at LMCU park and it was the worst experience ever. Soccer fields are BIG and probably would only play nice with football. Toyota Park in Chicago is a soccer/concert venue and I heard it’s a poor place to watch a concert. So I think the mixed use idea is shaky at best. 

I always thought the Padnos site would be a great place for a stadium, but I do agree with GRdad, it would be an island and take years for development to make it an interesting area (if ever). 

I love the west side for a soccer stadium. People pouring into the streets before and after a match could be a great experience. IMHO, if the $124M figure floated around is accurate, it’s not going to be just a 3000-5000 seat soccer venue. If they DO go with that sized stadium, I have to imagine there is ancillary development included in the project. I just don’t see how a USL 2 team could pull in enough revenue to offset that amount of money..

Even if NOTHING happens, I still feel like this is a win just for the simple fact that we’re not stuck with a gas station at that corner for the next 30 years. thanks DP Fox!

Joe

[MJLO]

12 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Plus, I don't follow sports and most people don't follow sports that closely. Do people REALLY care about D-1 vs D-whatever teams? 

From the standpoint that it's a national sport with nationally televised games I think it would be an asset.  Especially if the sports commission created a bowl game with a local sponsor.  It could bring pretty decent exposure to the area.  Outside of that yes, it's a very popular sport.  You already have a population base hungry for a piece of that pie vs soccer which is still somewhat of an olympic sport in our culture.   Ultimately you're not wrong it's more of a vanity wish than truly necessary.   I'd love to see night shots of downtown GR on ESPN lol.  If you wanted something to be "game changer" bringing Grand Valley onto that stage would be more impactful than bringing in a lower tier soccer league in a small stadium. 

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

From the standpoint that it's a national sport with nationally televised games I think it would be an asset.  Especially if the sports commission created a bowl game with a local sponsor.  It could bring pretty decent exposure to the area.  Outside of that yes, it's a very popular sport.  You already have a population base hungry for a piece of that pie vs soccer which is still somewhat of an olympic sport in our culture.   Ultimately you're not wrong it's more of a vanity wish than truly necessary.   I'd love to see night shots of downtown GR on ESPN lol.  If you wanted something to be "game changer" bringing Grand Valley onto that stage would be more impactful than bringing in a lower tier soccer league in a small stadium. 

I guess that's my point. You really think a lot of people are going to watch a televised game of Grand Valley State University vs whomever? Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who follows GV football.   Not trying to be negative, just uninformed. 

[demhem]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

From the standpoint that it's a national sport with nationally televised games I think it would be an asset.  Especially if the sports commission created a bowl game with a local sponsor.  It could bring pretty decent exposure to the area.  Outside of that yes, it's a very popular sport.  You already have a population base hungry for a piece of that pie vs soccer which is still somewhat of an olympic sport in our culture.   Ultimately you're not wrong it's more of a vanity wish than truly necessary.   I'd love to see night shots of downtown GR on ESPN lol.  If you wanted something to be "game changer" bringing Grand Valley onto that stage would be more impactful than bringing in a lower tier soccer league in a small stadium. 

I don't know what the NCAA requirements may be, but I would imagine that a stadium (with 7k to 10k seats) could host NCAA or MHSAA soccer tournament games as well. 

[demhem]

14 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I guess that's my point. You really think a lot of people are going to watch a televised game of Grand Valley State University vs whomever? Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who follows GV football.   Not trying to be negative, just uninformed. 

I'm an alum, so I arguably live in another bubble, but quite a few alums that I know follow GV football (at least casually, and occasionally go to games). I would imagine it is at a rate similar to other non-P5 schools, where those that are into sports have a favorite P5 school they follow, along with the school they attended. 

[Pattmost20]

23 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I guess that's my point. You really think a lot of people are going to watch a televised game of Grand Valley State University vs whomever? Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who follows GV football.   Not trying to be negative, just uninformed. 

On top of that there is absolutely zero chance we'd ever get a bowl game. And if by chance GVSU scheduled a game vs one of the bigger universities, it would not be held in GR. It would be 5-6 games against teams in Ohio, Illinois, or Missouri that no one has ever heard of.

[GRDadof3]

28 minutes ago, demhem said:

I'm an alum, so I arguably live in another bubble, but quite a few alums that I know follow GV football (at least casually, and occasionally go to games). I would imagine it is at a rate similar to other non-P5 schools, where those that are into sports have a favorite P5 school they follow, along with the school they attended. 

I graduated from WMU. I haven't watched a WMU game since we went to spartan stadium a few years ago and Western got creamed lol. I was actually rooting for State.  My wife got her Masters from GV and my daughter just graduated with her bachelors from GV this Spring. So I'm not totally oblivious to the Lakers. 

I think I would go to some USL soccer games in a sweet new stadium though. Maybe even more than Whitecaps games. 

[MJLO]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I guess that's my point. You really think a lot of people are going to watch a televised game of Grand Valley State University vs whomever? Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who follows GV football.   Not trying to be negative, just uninformed. 

At it's current division 2 level no.  Current regional interest is little more what a high school game would be.  Give them a bigger stage with bigger brands and yes I do think you'd get more regional interest/alumni/and community buy in as every other team does.  

2 hours ago, demhem said:

I don't know what the NCAA requirements may be, but I would imagine that a stadium (with 7k to 10k seats) could host NCAA or MHSAA soccer tournament games as well. 

University of  Hawaii is the smallest stadium in FBS that I'm aware of with about 6,000 seats.  Though I don't know if it would make financial sense for GVSU to cut their ability to sell tickets in half.  This would only work  if the venue stays at about 12K+.

1 hour ago, Pattmost20 said:

On top of that there is absolutely zero chance we'd ever get a bowl game. And if by chance GVSU scheduled a game vs one of the bigger universities, it would not be held in GR. It would be 5-6 games against teams in Ohio, Illinois, or Missouri that no one has ever heard of.

You can't be sure of this at all. You're not considering other variables that come with moving up. Yes if they were in a mid major conference playing a top tier school would be at that school that's how it works.  That's still HUGE recruiting exposure on a big stage.  As for home games, they would still be playing with other D1 schools that ARE nationally known.   Going up in division also comes with a leveling up at the recruiting level.  You would  be naive to think that were they to jump up to an FBS level, they would  not have an increase in the resources and recruiting strategy  that comes at that level. 

Over the last 10 years several schools have made the jump to FBS and made bowl games.  Some after having no football program at all.  Especially now with the new NIL rules.  All it takes is a few deep pocketed boosters and a school can build a program and compete just fine.  Grand Rapids already has more than a few folks with deep pockets.   Actually more than many markets with already well established schools.  I wouldn't be so quick to write something like this off. 

[Cookin_peacocks]

1 minute ago, MJLO said:

At it's current division 2 level no.  It's interest is little more what a high school game.  Give them a bigger stage with bigger brands and yes I do think you'd get more regional interest as every other team does.  

University of  Hawaii is the smallest stadium in FBS that I'm aware of with about 6,000 seats.  Though I don't know if it would make financial sense for GVSU to cut their ability to sell tickets in half.  This would only work  if the venue stays at about 12K+.

You can't be sure of this at all. You're not considering other variables that come with moving up. Yes if they were in a mid major conference playing a top tier school would be at that school that's how it works.  That's still HUGE recruiting exposure on a big stage.  As for home games, they would still be playing with other D1 schools they have heard of.   Going up in division also comes with a leveling up at the recruiting level.  You would  be naive to think that they would jump up to an FBS level and not have an increase in the resources and recruiting strategy  at that level.  Over the last 10 years several schools have made the jump to FBS and made bowl games.  Especially with the new NIL rules.  All it takes is a few deep pocketed boosters and a school can build a program and compete just fine.  Grand Rapids already has more than a few folks with deep pockets.   Actually more than areas with well established schools.  I wouldn't be so quick to write something like this off. 

I think he means host a bowl game

[MJLO]

7 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

I think he means host a bowl game

Bowls are made or discontinued every year.   All it takes is a corporate sponsor willing to put their name on it.  I'm not saying its imminent, but certainly wouldn't be impossible with the right venue/ commitment either. 

[GR8scott]

For reference, WMU is hosting a ranked Pitt team in a couple of weeks. They usually play power 5 teams on the road but do occasional host them. With sports betting these days people do tune into those kind of match ups. Compared to GVSU, WMU's stadium is about 3x the capacity and doesnt sell out often but still averages thousands more per game. GVSU to D1 would not be a game changer and more "novelty" but would be "easy enough to do since it has the facilities, money and size of community to back it. They play in a division where they are usually 5-10x larger than the schools they are playing against and also in much smaller markets. There are some exceptions like Wayne State. It would certainly give the school and area more visibility in the sports world and people who follow it. 

Back to this discussion, a dual (or more) purpose venue, if planned right for fan experience could warrant something larger/nicer in a prime location instead of 3? locations spread around town. In other words, is it better to have 4-5 mediocre facilities or 3 great ones? I like to compare against Des Moines Iowa as a similar sized city, smaller metro area, yes its the capitol and largest city in that state but there seems to be more of a sense of pride, progression and GRANDer scale there than Gran rapids. When it comes to sports there, it has everything GR does plus one-up in many ways. There is D1 school, finished bowl arena, larger/nicer baseball stadium downtown with AAA team, 2 minor league hockey teams, and yes they are already planning for a USL championship level soccer team with new stadium. So if this project is just a soccer specific minor league stadium in a prime location, it seems like it could be another missed opportunity.

[Pattmost20]

59 minutes ago, MJLO said:

You can't be sure of this at all. You're not considering other variables that come with moving up. Yes if they were in a mid major conference playing a top tier school would be at that school that's how it works.  That's still HUGE recruiting exposure on a big stage.  As for home games, they would still be playing with other D1 schools that ARE nationally known.   Going up in division also comes with a leveling up at the recruiting level.  You would  be naive to think that were they to jump up to an FBS level, they would  not have an increase in the resources and recruiting strategy  that comes at that level. 

Over the last 10 years several schools have made the jump to FBS and made bowl games.  Some after having no football program at all.  Especially now with the new NIL rules.  All it takes is a few deep pocketed boosters and a school can build a program and compete just fine.  Grand Rapids already has more than a few folks with deep pockets.   Actually more than many markets with already well established schools.  I wouldn't be so quick to write something like this off. 

We will never host a bowl game in my lifetime. Detroit barely does because they have a 65k seat indoor stadium, and it still is a bottom of the barrel bowl. Bowls heavily favor the South as they are held in late December and early Jan. See the map below. 

If GVSU makes the jump it'll be to FCS initially. So they'd maybe play Morehead State, Drake, St Thomas, and Butler or Western Illinois, Illinois State, Indiana State, and Youngstown State. If you are a diehard college hoops fan, you may recognize a few of those teams. Average college football fan wouldn't be familiar. 

If they ever have the money to make the jump to FBS I would imagine they'd have the money to build or upgrade a stadium on campus. In the long run it would be so much more beneficial to own their stadium and make all the profit on ticket sales and concessions. Playing home games against 4 MAC teams and 1 FCS non-conference team isn't going to be a big enough draw to make a downtown stadium worth the rent. That is the set up of WMU's schedule this year, that is basically what you get in the Mid-Majors.

A 20 minute drive to a stadium with ample parking isn't going to deter college football fans and the benefits to GVSU would far outweigh the negatives of not being closer to the city. 

[demhem]

1 hour ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

I think he means host a bowl game

I'm specifically talking about soccer, not football.

2 hours ago, MJLO said:

At it's current division 2 level no.  Current regional interest is little more what a high school game would be.  Give them a bigger stage with bigger brands and yes I do think you'd get more regional interest/alumni/and community buy in as every other team does.  

University of  Hawaii is the smallest stadium in FBS that I'm aware of with about 6,000 seats.  Though I don't know if it would make financial sense for GVSU to cut their ability to sell tickets in half.  This would only work  if the venue stays at about 12K+.

You can't be sure of this at all. You're not considering other variables that come with moving up. Yes if they were in a mid major conference playing a top tier school would be at that school that's how it works.  That's still HUGE recruiting exposure on a big stage.  As for home games, they would still be playing with other D1 schools that ARE nationally known.   Going up in division also comes with a leveling up at the recruiting level.  You would  be naive to think that were they to jump up to an FBS level, they would  not have an increase in the resources and recruiting strategy  that comes at that level. 

Over the last 10 years several schools have made the jump to FBS and made bowl games.  Some after having no football program at all.  Especially now with the new NIL rules.  All it takes is a few deep pocketed boosters and a school can build a program and compete just fine.  Grand Rapids already has more than a few folks with deep pockets.   Actually more than many markets with already well established schools.  I wouldn't be so quick to write something like this off. 

I was referencing the possibility of NCAA soccer tournament games, not football. The men's and women's NCAA tournament in various divisions pick a neutral site for the soccer national championship and semi games.