Proposed Downtown Amphitheater

[gvsusean]

3 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

I'm referring to as far back as the infamous "mystery project ^tm " as well. 

This plot of land has been an on again/off again topic for a long time. We've had multiple renderings, start and stops, lots of sometimes confusing statements from people involved. I cant even tell if the actual amphitheater is going to be north or south of the S-curve at this point. Will it have a residential/retail component, or will it just be part amphitheater, part surface parking lot. And goodness knows if we get a rendering and go through the process of value engineering and scale-backs like other famous developments in DT have gone through for whatever reason. This is a lot of money into this, but we all are kind of in the dark. And honestly, an amphitheater alone isnt worth 116 million dollars, and arent that big a draw, so I'm hoping that there is FAR MORE to this that really blows us away.

I'm certainly not one of these Facebook types that likely are going on about fictitious concerns like "How many people are going to get displaced by this?" or "Parking is too scarce and they do this!!?!?!" or "Why not spend the money on homeless people?" boilerplate. LOL!

[EDIT: Nevermind. I looked, they are]

I'm just hoping for another Studio Park homerun, but fearful slightly for another Icon on Bond level fumble, where we get super hyped, and then look at it and say "that's it?".

If its just an amphitheater with a sea of parking its def.  a fumble…. Id rather it just stay the same and wait for something better 

[joeDowntown]

I think the three developments are quite different. The mystery project was some sort of bizarre world boondoggle, Flaherty and Collins seems like a simple case of not being able to make the numbers work (which I think the city learned from- sewer was expensive, property was expensive, etc etc). 

With the amphitheater, you have a private developer footing half the cost of the sewer, the city has a REAL place to move, they’ve got multiple funding sources, and it’s moving relatively quickly. 

I wouldn’t bet against Grand Action on this one. 

I don’t understand the “sea of parking” conversation. 400 spots is not necessarily a “sea”. Depending on the plans for development, it could come from a combination of surface, ramps, and parking combined with development which might   It could also come as part of development on other parcels. 

Seems like people have been doing a lot of complaining based on wild (and often inaccurate) speculation. Maybe we have a drought of real development news lately? 

Please, development gods, give us some renderings of a fully baked project we can pick apart    I’m getting tired of fighting about which type of casino will be best for Gun Lake To put in the BOB. LOL, oh wait, that didn’t happen and was conjured by wild speculation.

[GRDadof3]

5 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

I'm referring to as far back as the infamous "mystery project ^tm " as well. 

This plot of land has been an on again/off again topic for a long time. We've had multiple renderings, start and stops, lots of sometimes confusing statements from people involved. I cant even tell if the actual amphitheater is going to be north or south of the S-curve at this point. Will it have a residential/retail component, or will it just be part amphitheater, part surface parking lot. And goodness knows if we get a rendering and go through the process of value engineering and scale-backs like other famous developments in DT have gone through for whatever reason. This is a lot of money into this, but we all are kind of in the dark. And honestly, an amphitheater alone isnt worth 116 million dollars, and arent that big a draw, so I'm hoping that there is FAR MORE to this that really blows us away.

I'm certainly not one of these Facebook types that likely are going on about fictitious concerns like "How many people are going to get displaced by this?" or "Parking is too scarce and they do this!!?!?!" or "Why not spend the money on homeless people?" boilerplate. LOL!

[EDIT: Nevermind. I looked, they are]

I'm just hoping for another Studio Park homerun, but fearful slightly for another Icon on Bond level fumble, where we get super hyped, and then look at it and say "that's it?".

It's going to be on 201 Market, South of 131.  Just because some secretary at the city shared the wrong rendering with the press doesn't mean the city and county don't know what they're doing. 

Page 212 if you want to read the whole thing:

http://grandrapidscitymi.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=1&ID=4884&Inline=True

 

8 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

I think the three developments are quite different. The mystery project was some sort of bizarre world boondoggle, Flaherty and Collins seems like a simple case of not being able to make the numbers work (which I think the city learned from- sewer was expensive, property was expensive, etc etc). 

With the amphitheater, you have a private developer footing half the cost of the sewer, the city has a REAL place to move, they’ve got multiple funding sources, and it’s moving relatively quickly. 

I wouldn’t bet against Grand Action on this one. 

I don’t understand the “sea of parking” conversation. 400 spots is not necessarily a “sea”. Depending on the plans for development, it could come from a combination of surface, ramps, and parking combined with development which might   It could also come as part of development on other parcels. 

Seems like people have been doing a lot of complaining based on wild (and often inaccurate) speculation. Maybe we have a drought of real development news lately? 

Please, development gods, give us some renderings of a fully baked project we can pick apart    I’m getting tired of fighting about which type of casino will be best for Gun Lake To put in the BOB. LOL, oh wait, that didn’t happen and was conjured by wild speculation.

I too pray in Jebus's name for good renderings soon, ha-men. 

[joeDowntown]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

It's going to be on 201 Market, South of 131.  Just because some secretary at the city shared the wrong rendering with the press doesn't mean the city and county don't know what they're doing. 

Page 212 if you want to read the whole thing:

http://grandrapidscitymi.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=1&ID=4884&Inline=True

 

I too pray in Jebus's name for good renderings soon, ha-men. 

Luckily, the tower at studio park should be starting soon. That will give us a good fodder for griping, hand-wringing and passionate debate over a tangible project. LOL. We’ll even throw in some crane porn for people that like that sorta thing. Haha

[GRDadof3]

14 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

Luckily, the tower at studio park should be starting soon. That will give us a good fodder for griping, hand-wringing and passionate debate over a tangible project. LOL. We’ll even throw in some crane porn for people that like that sorta thing. Haha

Can't wait!!

[Cookin_peacocks]

16 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

It's going to be on 201 Market, South of 131.  Just because some secretary at the city shared the wrong rendering with the press doesn't mean the city and county don't know what they're doing. 

Page 212 if you want to read the whole thing:

http://grandrapidscitymi.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=1&ID=4884&Inline=True

 

I too pray in Jebus's name for good renderings soon, ha-men. 

In fairness. My old boss at the Amway (and a long time lurker here) did speak to mayor Bliss several months ago, and she apparently suggested the amphitheatre was going NORTH of 131. 

 

Now this was several months ago. And maybe her comment was a mistake or something. I don't know.  But if a mayor told me that, I'd believe it.

 

And I don't think Mayor Bliss would lie about that. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe things changed. Dunno.

[GRDadof3]

22 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

In fairness. My old boss at the Amway (and a long time lurker here) did speak to mayor Bliss several months ago, and she apparently suggested the amphitheatre was going NORTH of 131. 

 

Now this was several months ago. And maybe her comment was a mistake or something. I don't know.  But if a mayor told me that, I'd believe it.

 

And I don't think Mayor Bliss would lie about that. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe things changed. Dunno.

Yes, Grand Action hired two very expensive architectural firms (ProgressiveAE and https://www.callisonrtkl.com/projects/ ) to draw up a plan of the amphitheater North of 131. We talked about it earlier in this thread. It was probably a very serious contender. But that changed at some point and last week it was solidified at 201 Market. 

After talking with someone who's very active with the city, one of the reasons it "MAY" have gotten moved to 201 was fear of noise complaints. It was noise complaints from neighbors of Meijer Gardens that bands now have to stop playing at a certain time there (I think 9:45 they can start their last song).  Imagine much larger acts being told they have to stop playing at 10pm in downtown GR..   and it not even being dark yet. 

I'll stop chiming in on this thread and driving people crazy haha. It has been a long time coming to get these riverfront parcels redeveloped and it looks like we're finally there (at the starting point). I'm excited. 

[Cookin_peacocks]

52 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Yes, Grand Action hired two very expensive architectural firms (ProgressiveAE and https://www.callisonrtkl.com/projects/ ) to draw up a plan of the amphitheater North of 131. We talked about it earlier in this thread. It was probably a very serious contender. But that changed at some point and last week it was solidified at 201 Market. 

After talking with someone who's very active with the city, one of the reasons it "MAY" have gotten moved to 201 was fear of noise complaints. It was noise complaints from neighbors of Meijer Gardens that bands now have to stop playing at a certain time there (I think 9:45 they can start their last song).  Imagine much larger acts being told they have to stop playing at 10pm in downtown GR..   and it not even being dark yet. 

I'll stop chiming in on this thread and driving people crazy haha. It has been a long time coming to get these riverfront parcels redeveloped and it looks like we're finally there (at the starting point). I'm excited. 

Don't stop chiming in. This is exciting and major development. Keep it coming!

[cstonesparty]

I'm anxious to see more details on the actual amphitheater as they are nailed down.  To be frank, it's really big and really expensive...  The Nashville amphitheater I've pointed out as a reasonable comparison in site, etc. is only 7,000 seats and cost $40million.  ( Riverfront Park & Ascend Amphitheater | Architect Magazine  ) The proposed GR venue having 15,000 seats is pretty big for that site, and for the market.  I don't know if another city of our scale has one this big.  I'd hate to see it half empty instead of consistently sold out (as Meijer gardens is because of it's small size).  If it were my project, I'd go more like 10k seats.  

It will also be really interesting to see how they site it on the property to take advantage of sightlines of skyline, etc and to think about sun-glare, etc...  How much covered seating vs. lawn?  I'd go big on lawn.  We're still a pretty thrifty community here so cheap(er) seats will do big sales.

[Cookin_peacocks]

1 hour ago, cstonesparty said:

I'm anxious to see more details on the actual amphitheater as they are nailed down.  To be frank, it's really big and really expensive...  The Nashville amphitheater I've pointed out as a reasonable comparison in site, etc. is only 7,000 seats and cost $40million.  ( Riverfront Park & Ascend Amphitheater | Architect Magazine  ) The proposed GR venue having 15,000 seats is pretty big for that site, and for the market.  I don't know if another city of our scale has one this big.  I'd hate to see it half empty instead of consistently sold out (as Meijer gardens is because of it's small size).  If it were my project, I'd go more like 10k seats.  

It will also be really interesting to see how they site it on the property to take advantage of sightlines of skyline, etc and to think about sun-glare, etc...  How much covered seating vs. lawn?  I'd go big on lawn.  We're still a pretty thrifty community here so cheap(er) seats will do big sales.

You build it like the did Pine Knob, which expanded due to demand. The hill used to be much smaller.

[cstonesparty]

11 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

You build it like the did Pine Knob, which expanded due to demand. The hill used to be much smaller.

If we were building this in Millennium Park, that would make sense.

[Cookin_peacocks]

2 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

I'm anxious to see more details on the actual amphitheater as they are nailed down.  To be frank, it's really big and really expensive...  The Nashville amphitheater I've pointed out as a reasonable comparison in site, etc. is only 7,000 seats and cost $40million.  ( Riverfront Park & Ascend Amphitheater | Architect Magazine  ) The proposed GR venue having 15,000 seats is pretty big for that site, and for the market.  I don't know if another city of our scale has one this big.  I'd hate to see it half empty instead of consistently sold out (as Meijer gardens is because of it's small size).  If it were my project, I'd go more like 10k seats.  

It will also be really interesting to see how they site it on the property to take advantage of sightlines of skyline, etc and to think about sun-glare, etc...  How much covered seating vs. lawn?  I'd go big on lawn.  We're still a pretty thrifty community here so cheap(er) seats will do big sales.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cookin_peacocks
Double post

[civitas]

6 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Yes, Grand Action hired two very expensive architectural firms (ProgressiveAE and https://www.callisonrtkl.com/projects/ ) to draw up a plan of the amphitheater North of 131. We talked about it earlier in this thread. It was probably a very serious contender. But that changed at some point and last week it was solidified at 201 Market. 

After talking with someone who's very active with the city, one of the reasons it "MAY" have gotten moved to 201 was fear of noise complaints. It was noise complaints from neighbors of Meijer Gardens that bands now have to stop playing at a certain time there (I think 9:45 they can start their last song).  Imagine much larger acts being told they have to stop playing at 10pm in downtown GR..   and it not even being dark yet. 

I'll stop chiming in on this thread and driving people crazy haha. It has been a long time coming to get these riverfront parcels redeveloped and it looks like we're finally there (at the starting point). I'm excited. 

Noise complaints!  
 

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, civitas said:

Noise complaints!  
 

How late do those concerts at RPC go at night? I don't think they go past 10 do they? Thinking back to when they had them.  I've heard events on the Blue Bridge are similar, have to be done by a certain time (10 pm). 

 

[GRDadof3]

5 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

I'm anxious to see more details on the actual amphitheater as they are nailed down.  To be frank, it's really big and really expensive...  The Nashville amphitheater I've pointed out as a reasonable comparison in site, etc. is only 7,000 seats and cost $40million.  ( Riverfront Park & Ascend Amphitheater | Architect Magazine  ) The proposed GR venue having 15,000 seats is pretty big for that site, and for the market.  I don't know if another city of our scale has one this big.  I'd hate to see it half empty instead of consistently sold out (as Meijer gardens is because of it's small size).  If it were my project, I'd go more like 10k seats.  

It will also be really interesting to see how they site it on the property to take advantage of sightlines of skyline, etc and to think about sun-glare, etc...  How much covered seating vs. lawn?  I'd go big on lawn.  We're still a pretty thrifty community here so cheap(er) seats will do big sales.

Coachman Park on the waterfront in Clearwater Florida is $85 Million, underway right now. The amphitheater will only hold 4000 people, but it's almost 20 acres of parks.  It has a $65 Million when  they broke ground about a year ago. Now it's $85.

https://stpetecatalyst.com/64-5-million-imagine-clearwater-waterfront-park-ready-to-break-ground/

One thing I found interesting about the Grand Action drawing is what looks like corporate/box seating areas in the outfield. I don't think I've seen that at an outdoor amphitheater before. Neat idea though. 

I too am itching to see a new set of renderings. 

[civitas]

4 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

How late do those concerts at RPC go at night? I don't think they go past 10 do they? Thinking back to when they had them.  I've heard events on the Blue Bridge are similar, have to be done by a certain time (10 pm). 

 

I thought that Blues on the Mall had to end at 9 as a courtesy to hotel guests. ???  It brought thousands of people downtown every Wednesday.  

[cstonesparty]

6 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Coachman Park on the waterfront in Clearwater Florida is $85 Million, underway right now. The amphitheater will only hold 4000 people, but it's almost 20 acres of parks.  It has a $65 Million when  they broke ground about a year ago. Now it's $85.

https://stpetecatalyst.com/64-5-million-imagine-clearwater-waterfront-park-ready-to-break-ground/

One thing I found interesting about the Grand Action drawing is what looks like corporate/box seating areas in the outfield. I don't think I've seen that at an outdoor amphitheater before. Neat idea though. 

I too am itching to see a new set of renderings. 

Interesting comparison. But it reads as ‘park with bandshell’ they way the writer put it.  I hope our amphitheater comes across as parkland as much as possible.  
 

the ‘suites’ part of that rendering was curious to me too.  Reminded me of grandstand seating at the free fair.  Will be interested to see what becomes of that.
 

I still think capacity is too large…

[GRDadof3]

8 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

Interesting comparison. But it reads as ‘park with bandshell’ they way the writer put it.  I hope our amphitheater comes across as parkland as much as possible.  
 

the ‘suites’ part of that rendering was curious to me too.  Reminded me of grandstand seating at the free fair.  Will be interested to see what becomes of that.
 

I still think capacity is too large…

I wonder if they're trying to have capacity slightly more than VAA? 

[joeDowntown]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I wonder if they're trying to have capacity slightly more than VAA? 

An article a few years back said that VAA misses out on a lot of concerts in the summer because the tour is built for outdoor venues. So I bet we’ll get some good concerts that would normally have to pass VAA by.  Van Andel is a very high performing arena that I’ve heard artists like to play, so I think fears of half filled concerts may be unwarranted. 

i bet the extra seating (lawn) will make tickets more affordable, so may draw more people just because of that. 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

6 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

An article a few years back said that VAA misses out on a lot of concerts in the summer because the tour is built for outdoor venues. So I bet we’ll get some good concerts that would normally have to pass VAA by.  Van Andel is a very high performing arena that I’ve heard artists like to play, so I think fears of half filled concerts may be unwarranted. 

i bet the extra seating (lawn) will make tickets more affordable, so may draw more people just because of that. 

Joe

I remember that. And thinking about major concerts I've been to with 50,000+ in attendance, 12,000 does not seem like that large of a number. 

[Guest]

I don't think 12,00 is too much at all.  Shows at the VanAndel sell out all the time.  I would much rather see a show outside than in an arena.  It will also draw people from outside of Kent County who would normally make the trip to Chicago or Detroit.  I feel like some people will see a band or artist at multiple cities too, I'm not sure if this is still a thing anymore?  (think Dead Heads)

[GRDadof3]

14 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

I don't think 12,00 is too much at all.  Shows at the VanAndel sell out all the time.  I would much rather see a show outside than in an arena.  It will also draw people from outside of Kent County who would normally make the trip to Chicago or Detroit.  I feel like some people will see a band or artist at multiple cities too, I'm not sure if this is still a thing anymore?  (think Dead Heads)

I have friends who have driven around the country to see Nathaniel Rateliff.  I think they went to Chicago, Red Rocks Theatre and New Orleans (as an excuse to go visit those cities for a long weekend). It's totally a thing .

 

[cstonesparty]

23 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I have friends who have driven around the country to see Nathaniel Rateliff.  I think they went to Chicago, Red Rocks Theatre and New Orleans (as an excuse to go visit those cities for a long weekend). It's totally a thing .

 

So, I was thinking the proposal was 15,000 seats.  I was wrong.  

 

Red Rocks and Champions Square (New Orleans) are both under 10k...  As are MANY of the amphitheaters around the country.  So, to the point earlier that we'd miss shows with a venue not big enough, many (most?) amphitheaters getting the shows we're talking about are slightly smaller than the proposal.  But I was wrong about the proposed capacity anyway...

[Guest]

A lot of artists now will do two+ consecutive shows at Red Rocks with usually both selling out.  Red Rocks is kind of a destination in an of itself, people visit during the day when there's nothing going on.  Denver is also the largest city within a 500+ mile radius, not to mention there are cheap flights there.

On 4/7/2022 at 9:39 AM, GRDadof3 said:

I have friends who have driven around the country to see Nathaniel Rateliff.  I think they went to Chicago, Red Rocks Theatre and New Orleans (as an excuse to go visit those cities for a long weekend). It's totally a thing .

 

Exactly, I could see people doing Pine Knob > GR > Tinley Park for bands, especially those that don't do cookie cutter setlist

[joeDowntown]

Interesting quote from an MIBiz article:

”National housing developers that haven’t invested in the area before also are showing interest in the 31-acre concept and view the amphitheater as the major draw, Vanderberg said.

“The amphitheater is what brought them in,” Vanderberg said. “There weren’t specific proposals or numbers thrown around, but they said they didn’t see this much property and this type of development happening elsewhere around the country.”

maybe a chance of some national players/investment in the mixed use portion?

also says that Rosetti is working on the amphitheater plans. 

https://mibiz.com/sections/real-estate-development/grand-rapids-linchpin-modeled-off-van-andel-arena-116-million-amphitheater-project-already-attracting-national-developers-attention

Joe