Belle Meade Village (nine buildings of 12, 11, 10, 8, 2, and 1 stories, 388 residential units, 78 room hotel, 80,000 sq. ft. of retail, underground garages, and creekside park)

[Deepdish53]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

Was this a recent plan? It was referencing the rebuild of I 440 which has already been done. So, I am thinking this is an old plan.

On a similar note, the Gov and TDOT are expected to have a new spending plan announced this week, I think. Let's see how much of this is in there.

 

This is from the list of projects that TDOT released a month or two ago that don’t have any funding but that they surmised could be built using the private-public partnership idea that they just came out with. I think there was a lot of discussion on the document in the Transportation and Mass Transit thread.

Regardless - this is a recent proposal, but it’s one without a funding source and one that I can’t imagine will have any real momentum any time soon.

[go_outside]

Thom Druffel (District 23 council member) is now publicly opposed to this development. The site is not in his district; it is in the adjacent district 24, represented by CM Kathleen Murphy. Nonetheless, Druffel likely holds some sway.

The relevant portion of CM Druffel's constituent email is copied below:

Quote

Here is my take on the project: 
1. It does not appear to represent what our community needs. We have a wealth of new apartment complexes on Charlotte, just a few miles from this site. There is also an abundance of hotels nearby in Green Hills, West End at Murphy Road, and, of course midtown and downtown. I have not heard from our neighborhood that we are seeking higher density or a hotel. 
2. Bringing in high density housing will increase traffic in an already burdened intersection. The developer suggests that apartments will reduce traffic from the current retail use. Is this argument flawed when you consider that retail hours and the days are limited. Apartment residents and hotel guests will be coming and going on all days and at all hours.

3. There needs to be a thorough and unbiased traffic study. We were all hoping to have learned what the developer has proposed for this corner yesterday with NDOT’s assessment. We need a comprehensive plan for the infrastructure of this intersection in terms of bridges, lanes and sewer and water runoff. Traffic design should precede development.

4. The impact on neighboring streets will be detrimental. We already have too much cut through on Post Road, Wilsonia, Brook Hollow and Hickory Valley. Drivers will look for any cut through with the additional traffic caused by this development. This needs to be considered before any significant development is approved.

5. The proposed development will have only 1/3 of the current retail square footage. So many of the local businesses and restaurants are well used by those of us who live in the area. The walk-in clinic, Smoothie King, Starbuck’s, Katy’s Hallmark, the Japanese and Mexican restaurants and the Watch Repair shop are examples of neighborhood businesses. We need more, not less. The elimination of local businesses will cause residents to drive further from our area for comparable dining and shopping. 
6. The project needs to be examined in context with other developments being considered. The Manning on two lane Woodmont is not fully occupied. There are developments being discussed for St. Thomas (at the Picnic site) and on White Bridge Road at Steinmart. A mention has also been made for the retail strip at Chuey’s, although it has been put on hold for the time being. All of these developments will add significant strain on an area that is already a chokehold at times. All directions from White Bridge and Harding are already congested at many times of the day. The proximity of several private schools adds to traffic in the morning and at dismissal. The Kroger will move to the old Harris Teeter/Theater site, so that traffic will be moved closer to Kenner which is already a tight spot.

7. There is insufficient parking on the proposed site. 80 spaces are designed for the limited retail. The rest are proposed underground spots. The proximity to the creek and the flooding in the area, as well as the disruption from blasting an underground parking garage present problems. 
8. The height of the three towers is not in keeping with the residential character of the neighborhood, and is far higher than any nearby developments. It will set a precedent for height that the neighborhood does not desire, and presents questions about loss of daylight and views from homes situated to the west of the site.

 

[japan]

On 1/4/2023 at 10:37 AM, chc3 said:

With all of our superb local roasters, why do people even in upscale areas still patronize that insipid corporate brand with burnt coffee and pre-made additives?

It's all of the drinks that they have that aren't coffee.  Those are the bigger sellers...

[smeagolsfree]

27 minutes ago, go_outside said:

Thom Druffel (District 23 council member) is now publicly opposed to this development. The site is not in his district; it is in the adjacent district 24, represented by CM Kathleen Murphy. Nonetheless, Druffel likely holds some sway.

The relevant portion of CM Druffel's constituent email is copied below:

 

It depends if Kathleen supports it in council if it gets that far. Normally if the council member supports it, then the majority of the rest of the council will too. I think this is her last term and she probably wants a legacy project for her district, and this would be it.  Voters have such short memory's it is not even funny. Most people can't tell you what they had to eat night before last. It is like everything else, once you get used to something it grows on you, like the old-World Trade Centers in NYC. Tons of opposition to the towers, before they were built and even after it was built, then they were embraced, and we know the rest of the story.

[Luvemtall]

Do people not realize they live in a CITY! If they seek peace & quiet and less traffic , they need to consider a move . 

[Nash_12South]

I still think the developer needs to do a some kind of report of what he can do by simply following the current zoning - as comparison. Could he forego the parklike elements and simply fill the site with bland apartments? It should be made clear that letting it stay as is, is not on the table. My experience is that residential developments produce much less traffic than retail (what is there now). 

I do think that one possible reason for the Druffel push back is that this will set a precedent for density, parking & height for the nearby areas. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Nash_12South

[PruneTracy]

3 hours ago, go_outside said:

4. The impact on neighboring streets will be detrimental. We already have too much cut through on Post Road, Wilsonia, Brook Hollow and Hickory Valley. Drivers will look for any cut through with the additional traffic caused by this development. This needs to be considered before any significant development is approved.

Part of the reason drivers cut through on Post Road is because Belle Meade PD blocks traffic on Harding Pike to let traffic from Belle Meade Boulevard out each morning.

[go_outside]

If anyone lives in West Nashville and would like to express your support for this project to Councilmember Murphy, please do so using this form. There are lots of voices against the project ("Not enough surface parking! Too tall! I refuse to believe the traffic study showing this will reduce traffic!") and I'm sure any support would be helpful.

[smeagolsfree]

I was looking at a Planning commission meeting about this and other projects and current zoning allows for 450k sq ft to built with set backs. The height would be based on what the 450k would go into and parking does not count against the total height. So you could in fact get a fairly tall building under current zoning probably two.

Either way a project will probably get built here. I think the planned project is 880k sq ft or almost double what is allowed under the current zoning, however, the traffic count more than likely would be much less because the Kroger would be relocating.

The folks are going to get something they do not want regardless. They can opt for something that they can work with the developer or they can opt not to work with the developer and settle for what ever the developer decides they want to put there with no Richland Creek improvements or anything that benefits the community.

[nashscan]

What if the Woodmont Blvd / White Bridge Road area was rebranded as the “Uptown District”?  It would line up geographically with Downtown and Midtown and might be an easier sell for developers and city leaders. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by nashscan

[MLBrumby]

Interesting suggestion, and it would line up in the sequence of what in Nashville is a real Downtown and a real Midtown. So as far as that goes, it is logical. I doubt the folks in Belle Meade would enjoy having any suggestion of any "town" in their front yard.  I also don't expect them to like any new development without a sea of asphalt for parking. 

I just think the "uptown" moniker sounds phony and 'trying too hard' to make an area seem like a destination.  LOL...  Maybe it's from watching too much South Park back in the day. 

[DDIG]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, smeagolsfree said:

It depends if Kathleen supports it in council if it gets that far. Normally if the council member supports it, then the majority of the rest of the council will too. I think this is her last term and she probably wants a legacy project for her district, and this would be it.  Voters have such short memory's it is not even funny. Most people can't tell you what they had to eat night before last. It is like everything else, once you get used to something it grows on you, like the old-World Trade Centers in NYC. Tons of opposition to the towers, before they were built and even after it was built, then they were embraced, and we know the rest of the story.

Vertis is always a favorite anecdote. If you listened to Green Hills residents it was going to be the end of Green Hills and implode the entire neighborhood. Now they eat at True Food Kitchen everyday and that intersection is 1000 times better.

[go_outside]

Sadly, I couldn’t make it to tonight’s Belle Meade Plaza Redevelopment community meeting. I did, however, watch the live stream.

The developers responded to community pushback by reducing building heights, reducing the number of residential units, increasing underground parking, and increasing the retail square footage from 60k square feet to 80k square feet. I’m disappointed by the residential reductions; Nashville needs all the housing it can get. To accommodate the additional square footage, some of the retail is now two stories. It’s gorgeous. If it lives up to the renderings, I think it would be the nicest retail space in West Nashville.

The traffic engineer noted that she lives in the area and sees the traffic concerns on social media. She further acknowledged that, while she is unlikely to convince everyone, she does traffic engineering for a living and is confident—based on traffic science and national standards and best practices—that this development will significantly reduce daily car trips compared to the current strip mall. She brought charts. She brought graphs. She suggested timing improvements to the Harding / White Bridge intersection to save drivers an average of 50 seconds. She was the MVP of the evening.

Unfortunately, the lengthy question and answer session was as useless as you’d expect. I paraphrase it below for your reading displeasure:

Traffic Questions

• When did you take the traffic study measurements? (Thom Druffel asked this question, skeptical of the traffic study showing reduced daily trips)
  • Developer answer: We did the traffic study on November 17th, a typical day. (Druffel ponders whether November 17 was during a holiday week; traffic engineer says no, it was not.)
• Everyone is still going to go to the supermarket even though it’s relocating. Won’t the road still be just as busy, even if the supermarket is no longer part of this particular development? You need to consider that! (Lots of claps and cheers)
  • Developer answer: We considered that in our traffic analysis.
  • Council Member Murphy jumped in to note that developers aren’t usually required to do traffic studies for other projects, but Murphy and NDOT have required that AJ Capital work with NDOT to study all projects on this corridor holistically.
• I’m mad you’re not studying the whole corridor. You keep saying that you're waiting on additional results from NDOT. You should put the whole project on hold while you work out all these details. Can you commit to that? (Lots of claps)
  • Murphy: They can't move forward until Planning Commission approves.
• This whole process feels disingenuous. I’m worried the horse will be out of the barn! Do you promise to not support the project until you have all the information?
  • Murphy: I’m waiting on NDOT. This project can’t be approved without NDOT.

[Long interlude while someone is very, very confused about removing the curb cut at the corner of White Bridge and Harding. People can't seem to figure out which way is north on the developer's rendering. Hastings is zooming in and out of the slides slowly to demonstrate. The world's greatest deliberative body is truly in the room tonight. Which road is White Bridge?]

• Has anybody studied construction traffic lately? It’s slow to be stuck behind dump trucks. It’s a pain in the ass! (Applause) Think of the school children and the hospital!
  • No developer answer.
• Does the traffic study assume that your retail doesn’t open until 10 or 11 in the morning?
  • We assume that some of the retail is open first thing in the morning. For example, we assume there will be a coffee shop, just like there's a Starbucks there now. We use national standards.
• The traffic engineer has yet to even mention the schools! What about the schools! Is there any consideration for the (albeit temporary) damage to all the surrounding roads? The satellites and navigational apps are going to direct people down these "lanes and circles!"
  • Developer answer: Our development has no effect on school traffic so it doesn't factor in. Does someone else want to take the satellite question? (No takers)
• It took me 40 minutes to travel 3 miles. I’m not walking (claps). I’m driving! Thanks to the other project that KCI did the traffic work for on Murphy Road, I sat through a light four times. There’s so much construction. “I don’t believe your traffic study, ma’am, sorry." (Big claps) “You are making Atlanta right here in Nashville.”
  • No developer answer.
• Was your traffic number based on each unit having one car or two cars?
  • Developer answer: There’s not a simple answer to that.
  • Audience member insisted it was a simple question. Traffic engineer (who is not being paid enough) tries to explain that ITE trip generation uses rates and equations; it's not linear.
  • Murphy jumps in: The math that we normal people use is "apples" and the math that professionals use are "oranges" and they don't line up. Asks traffic engineer to try to dumb it down for next meeting.

[Lots of long-winded, multi-part questions. Council Member Murphy unsuccessfully urges everyone to keep it to one question moving forward.]

Parking Questions

• How can an 18-wheeler deliver to one of these stores?
  • Developer answer: We don't anticipate 18-wheelers because we're not building big-box stores.
• People move to Nashville from across the country all the time. They move in big 18-wheelers. What about them?
  • No developer answer.
• You can’t control 18-wheelers coming in!
  • Murphy: I can ban 18-wheelers in the SP.
• Underground parking will flood. I have pictures from the last flood. What about that?
  • Developer answer: Parking garage will be elevated and flood-proof per federal requirements.
• I did some quick math, 950 parking spots is not enough for 388 units. That only leaves 400 spots for retail (assuming 1.5 cars per residential unit).
  • No developer answer.
• How many parking spaces?
  • Developer answer: 1.5 - 2 per condo.
  • Murphy: The council got rid of parking requirements in the UZO. I was opposed to that! But it doesn’t really matter, because this is outside the UZO. It’s required to have parking AND I can force them to add more!

Environmental Questions

• Won't demolition damage the creek?
  • Developer answer: There are a bunch of regulations we'll have to follow. It will be more complex than normal, but it's been done across the country.
• You say you’re restoring the creek yet you’re leaving the concrete pillars. Why?
  • Developer answer: We’re taking 80% of the stuff out of the creek. We saw it as a benefit to create a destination park with interesting vantage points over the creek. It was a unique opportunity. There’s no intention to leave columns in place unless they’re for the platform park. We might saw unused columns off at the base rather than pulling them out of the creek, depending on what's ultimately less disruptive.
• How is the parking going to be underground? It’s a sensitive area; we don’t want blasting.
  • Developer answer: There's lots of rock so there's no way to do it without blasting. There are a bunch of blasting regulations we have to follow.
• Are you doing any environmental studies regarding blasting or endangered species? What about the strain on our sewers? There should be more public forums on this.
  • Developer answer: We would coordinate with local and state authorities and we have to obtain a bunch of permits to even touch the creek.

Trash Questions

• Where will the trash go? I don't want to see dumpsters.
  • Developer answer: All trash rooms are interior. It will look nice.

Density Questions

• Would CM Murphy support tall buildings across the street?
  • Murphy: I’m out of office in August so I don’t have to decide. Planning Department gets a lot of input. They’d probably limit development across the street.
• Why can’t the square footage be less? Can't they apply for a SP but then build a much smaller building and we still get all the nice improvements?
  • Murphy: I can’t control what they apply for.
• Won't this development set a dangerous precedent?
  • Murphy: I've asked the Planning Department to prohibit apartments at the old Stein Mart, so I think there will still be limits on development.
• How big are the condos?
  • Developer answer: There are 101 condos in the plan now (2,400 sq ft average). We made them slightly smaller so we could fit a few more.
• There will be a lot of people in those condos, all connected to the greenway! That will be like 200 extra people on the greenway every day! Are you going to make McCabe greenway improvements to handle that additional density? [Editor's note: This complaint gets originality points. Our greenways will be overrun. Please, no more pedestrians!]
  • Murphy: It's not uncommon to force developers to pay for greenway improvements.
• If you don’t get the SP, are you done? Would the redevelopment not happen?
  • Developer answer: Rezoning is a key part of our plan. That's our focus.
• I can tell you that this community does not want high rise buildings. “We want to elevate our neighborhood, not our buildings.” I want to see a rendering of all four high rise buildings. Listen to your community; this is not what we want (Claps).
  • Developer answer: We'll have that full rendering for the next meeting. We didn't have it this time because we've been busy redesigning everything based on your feedback.

Affordability Questions

• Will there be any affordable units? (Claps)
  • Developer answer: We're planning on market rate. (Some other guy in the crowd was upset by this answer and demanded to know the specific condo prices. The developer said they don't know yet because it's years away. The guy did not accept this answer.)
  • Murphy: The state took away our ability to force developers to build affordable housing or condition SPs on affordable housing.

Walkability Questions

• Talk about pedestrian and bike access.
  • Developer answer: Enhanced sidewalk widths, beyond MCSP. Developers are NOT recommending bike lanes to nowhere on Harding, so that frees up some extra sidewalk or landscaping space. White Bridge should be easier to cross as pedestrian because they want to fix the split phase timing. There might also be improved bus stops.

Miscellaneous Questions

• Why should the community agree to this? What are we getting out of it?
  • Developer answer: The creek/greenway area will be really nice.
• This development is moving quickly. It’s hard for the community to process and have time to comment.
  • Murphy says that it’s good to move quickly so that the development team has to get their information in more quickly.
• I've lived here for a long time and I barely even heard about this meeting! I don't live in Hillwoood so I'm not connected to Council Member Murphy.
  • Murphy: I share information on my email list and on social media. The development team is required to mail information to nearby property owners. There's a website with all the info. I don't know what else you want me to do.
• Can we do the next meeting in a bigger space? That holds like 1,000 people?
  • Murphy: It’s up to the development team. They pay for all these talks. [Editor's note: I cannot imagine doing this Q&A with 1,000 people.]
• You [Council Member Murphy] said you were in favor of this project!
  • Murphy: I have never said I am in favor of this project. I am neutral until we have all the facts.
• Don’t pretend like you [the developers] have our interests in at heart, that you’re so happy to hear our feedback! You’re only doing this because you have to! Murphy, I want you to have an opinion on this! I don't want you to be neutral! I voted for you. You represent me. You’re supposed to support us. We don’t buy your crap! (Claps). [Angriest comment of the evening.]
  • Murphy: I have a lot of people sending me emails in support and a lot of emails in opposition. We need to wait for all the facts.

Retail Questions

• I’m mad that only 10% of the development is retail. You’re depriving us of retail. Would you consider adding more retail? [Editors note: There is already so much retail along White Bridge.]
  • Developer answer: We already updated our plan to increase the retail space based on community feedback. Our plan will have way more storefronts than what is there now. We'll have more than double the number of existing retail storefronts and restaurants. We can fit more in less space because they're not super deep big box stores.
• I see where you’re coming from when you say the new development will reduce the number of car trips, because you’re taking away most of the retail. A small store might not serve the community! (Big claps). We want retail! 90% of this development is residential and won’t serve the surrounding community! You continually refer to this as being the corner of two arterial roads, but there’s no entrance on White Bridge! (Big claps). It’s confusing to keep track of all this information. I’m confused!
  • No developer response.

There was a disappointing notion repeated throughout the evening: "Commercial serves the community but residential doesn't serve the community." Longtime homeowners are the real community. Everyone else is lesser and should be kept out as much as possible. Strip malls and empty Stein Marts are better than apartments. Retail serves the community; residential does not.

This is—of course—a bottom-of-the-barrel, short-sighted, reactionary, unkind, unneighborly conception of community. There is nothing that serves a community more than housing. When we build housing, we invite people into our community! We literally make space for them, regardless of whether they rent or own. It's one of the most welcoming things we can do. Today, Hillwood suffers from a housing shortage. Council Member Murphy admitted that she couldn't afford the area had she not been raised there.

Sadly, that's the stagnate neighborhood many of her constituents want.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by go_outside

[AsianintheNations]

1 hour ago, go_outside said:

How many parking spaces?

• Developer answer: 1.5 - 2 per condo.
• Murphy: The council got rid of parking requirements in the UZO. I was opposed to that! But it doesn’t really matter, because this is outside the UZO. It’s required to have parking AND I can force them to add more!

 

So ... we need less car traffic, but more parking spaces. Classic case of, "My car is inconvenienced by traffic, unlike all other cars which cause traffic. My car struggles to find a parking space, unlike all other cars that occupy them when I need one."

And certainly bonus points for wanting to preserve the amazing creek-under-parking deck habitat for endangered species, and worrying about traffic on the Greenway ha! (last time I walked it starting from the glorious empty Stein Mart, there was just me and a laundry bin full of clothes over the course of 1/2 mile ... definitely could've used some company).

Edited February 16, 2023 by AsianintheNations

[markhollin]

Echoing go_outside's excellent post, here are some of the tweaks to the overall plan according to this morning's NBJ piece:

- Shorter buildings. AJ Capital has cut the height of all buildings and decreased the height of the tallest building by nearly half.

- More retail. The company has added 20,000 more square feet of retail, bringing the total retail footprint to 80,000 square feet.

- Less density. The project is now planned for 388 residential units and 78 hotel rooms, down from 500 units and 120 rooms. The changes equal a subtraction of 142,000 square feet from the development.

- More parking. AJ Capital is pitching 950 parking spots, up from 664 parking spots in its original development plans.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/02/15/aj-capital-belle-meade-kroger-update.html

Also, a new rendering of the retail area:

[downtownresident]

Banning apartments at the old Stein Mart site is SO short sited it’s not even funny. Thank god Councilmember Murphy is term-limited. 

[samsonh]

9 minutes ago, downtownresident said:

Banning apartments at the old Stein Mart site is SO short sited it’s not even funny. Thank god Councilmember Murphy is term-limited. 

Agreed, but changing the West Meade attitude is the difficult part. These people are attached to their cars, but hate TRAFFIC. They do not want any sort of change. 

[Brichar4]

I really don’t understand the height or density argument of the neighbors, right across the street you have multiple office buildings and the new “Manning” condo buildings. Not to mention the St Thomas west hospital right down the road. It’s just frustrating in an area that needs the density and growth to be hindered in a way that seems to be inconsistent to what they have allowed in the past. 

[BnaBreaker]

57 minutes ago, Brichar4 said:

I really don’t understand the height or density argument of the neighbors, right across the street you have multiple office buildings and the new “Manning” condo buildings. Not to mention the St Thomas west hospital right down the road. It’s just frustrating in an area that needs the density and growth to be hindered in a way that seems to be inconsistent to what they have allowed in the past. 

I think the mistake you're making here is being too charitable and assuming that there is any rational and/or consistent logic behind the statements these people are making.  They say things in order to lend themselves an air of legitimacy, but I think really all the collective position of the West Meade NIMBY block boils down to is, essentially, 'AHH THINGS I'M NOT USED TO ARE SCARY!  MAKE THEM GO AWAY!'  Quite frankly I don't know why we consistently allow these short-sighted, selfish, paranoid asshats to dictate anything having to do with city development.  I mean, let them have their say, of course, but why alter the scope and scale of a development for them, as if any of the incoherent nonsense they're screaming has any legitimacy to it at all?  

Edited February 16, 2023 by BnaBreaker

[andywildman]

10 hours ago, go_outside said:

Sadly, I couldn’t make it to tonight’s Belle Meade Plaza Redevelopment community meeting. I did, however, watch the live stream.

The developers responded to community pushback by reducing building heights, reducing the number of residential units, increasing underground parking, and increasing the retail square footage from 60k square feet to 80k square feet. I’m disappointed by the residential reductions; Nashville needs all the housing it can get. To accommodate the additional square footage, some of the retail is now two stories. It’s gorgeous. If it lives up to the renderings, I think it would be the nicest retail space in West Nashville.

The traffic engineer noted that she lives in the area and sees the traffic concerns on social media. She further acknowledged that, while she is unlikely to convince everyone, she does traffic engineering for a living and is confident—based on traffic science and national standards and best practices—that this development will significantly reduce daily car trips compared to the current strip mall. She brought charts. She brought graphs. She suggested timing improvements to the Harding / White Bridge intersection to save drivers an average of 50 seconds. She was the MVP of the evening.

Unfortunately, the lengthy question and answer session was as useless as you’d expect. I paraphrase it below for your reading displeasure:

Traffic Questions

• When did you take the traffic study measurements? (Thom Druffel asked this question, skeptical of the traffic study showing reduced daily trips)
  • Developer answer: We did the traffic study on November 17th, a typical day. (Druffel ponders whether November 17 was during a holiday week; traffic engineer says no, it was not.)
• Everyone is still going to go to the supermarket even though it’s relocating. Won’t the road still be just as busy, even if the supermarket is no longer part of this particular development? You need to consider that! (Lots of claps and cheers)
  • Developer answer: We considered that in our traffic analysis.
  • Council Member Murphy jumped in to note that developers aren’t usually required to do traffic studies for other projects, but Murphy and NDOT have required that AJ Capital work with NDOT to study all projects on this corridor holistically.
• I’m mad you’re not studying the whole corridor. You keep saying that you're waiting on additional results from NDOT. You should put the whole project on hold while you work out all these details. Can you commit to that? (Lots of claps)
  • Murphy: They can't move forward until Planning Commission approves.
• This whole process feels disingenuous. I’m worried the horse will be out of the barn! Do you promise to not support the project until you have all the information?
  • Murphy: I’m waiting on NDOT. This project can’t be approved without NDOT.

[Long interlude while someone is very, very confused about removing the curb cut at the corner of White Bridge and Harding. People can't seem to figure out which way is north on the developer's rendering. Hastings is zooming in and out of the slides slowly to demonstrate. The world's greatest deliberative body is truly in the room tonight. Which road is White Bridge?]

• Has anybody studied construction traffic lately? It’s slow to be stuck behind dump trucks. It’s a pain in the ass! (Applause) Think of the school children and the hospital!
  • No developer answer.
• Does the traffic study assume that your retail doesn’t open until 10 or 11 in the morning?
  • We assume that some of the retail is open first thing in the morning. For example, we assume there will be a coffee shop, just like there's a Starbucks there now. We use national standards.
• The traffic engineer has yet to even mention the schools! What about the schools! Is there any consideration for the (albeit temporary) damage to all the surrounding roads? The satellites and navigational apps are going to direct people down these "lanes and circles!"
  • Developer answer: Our development has no effect on school traffic so it doesn't factor in. Does someone else want to take the satellite question? (No takers)
• It took me 40 minutes to travel 3 miles. I’m not walking (claps). I’m driving! Thanks to the other project that KCI did the traffic work for on Murphy Road, I sat through a light four times. There’s so much construction. “I don’t believe your traffic study, ma’am, sorry." (Big claps) “You are making Atlanta right here in Nashville.”
  • No developer answer.
• Was your traffic number based on each unit having one car or two cars?
  • Developer answer: There’s not a simple answer to that.
  • Audience member insisted it was a simple question. Traffic engineer (who is not being paid enough) tries to explain that ITE trip generation uses rates and equations; it's not linear.
  • Murphy jumps in: The math that we normal people use is "apples" and the math that professionals use are "oranges" and they don't line up. Asks traffic engineer to try to dumb it down for next meeting.

[Lots of long-winded, multi-part questions. Council Member Murphy unsuccessfully urges everyone to keep it to one question moving forward.]

Parking Questions

• How can an 18-wheeler deliver to one of these stores?
  • Developer answer: We don't anticipate 18-wheelers because we're not building big-box stores.
• People move to Nashville from across the country all the time. They move in big 18-wheelers. What about them?
  • No developer answer.
• You can’t control 18-wheelers coming in!
  • Murphy: I can ban 18-wheelers in the SP.
• Underground parking will flood. I have pictures from the last flood. What about that?
  • Developer answer: Parking garage will be elevated and flood-proof per federal requirements.
• I did some quick math, 950 parking spots is not enough for 388 units. That only leaves 400 spots for retail (assuming 1.5 cars per residential unit).
  • No developer answer.
• How many parking spaces?
  • Developer answer: 1.5 - 2 per condo.
  • Murphy: The council got rid of parking requirements in the UZO. I was opposed to that! But it doesn’t really matter, because this is outside the UZO. It’s required to have parking AND I can force them to add more!

Environmental Questions

• Won't demolition damage the creek?
  • Developer answer: There are a bunch of regulations we'll have to follow. It will be more complex than normal, but it's been done across the country.
• You say you’re restoring the creek yet you’re leaving the concrete pillars. Why?
  • Developer answer: We’re taking 80% of the stuff out of the creek. We saw it as a benefit to create a destination park with interesting vantage points over the creek. It was a unique opportunity. There’s no intention to leave columns in place unless they’re for the platform park. We might saw unused columns off at the base rather than pulling them out of the creek, depending on what's ultimately less disruptive.
• How is the parking going to be underground? It’s a sensitive area; we don’t want blasting.
  • Developer answer: There's lots of rock so there's no way to do it without blasting. There are a bunch of blasting regulations we have to follow.
• Are you doing any environmental studies regarding blasting or endangered species? What about the strain on our sewers? There should be more public forums on this.
  • Developer answer: We would coordinate with local and state authorities and we have to obtain a bunch of permits to even touch the creek.

Trash Questions

• Where will the trash go? I don't want to see dumpsters.
  • Developer answer: All trash rooms are interior. It will look nice.

Density Questions

• Would CM Murphy support tall buildings across the street?
  • Murphy: I’m out of office in August so I don’t have to decide. Planning Department gets a lot of input. They’d probably limit development across the street.
• Why can’t the square footage be less? Can't they apply for a SP but then build a much smaller building and we still get all the nice improvements?
  • Murphy: I can’t control what they apply for.
• Won't this development set a dangerous precedent?
  • Murphy: I've asked the Planning Department to prohibit apartments at the old Stein Mart, so I think there will still be limits on development.
• How big are the condos?
  • Developer answer: There are 101 condos in the plan now (2,400 sq ft average). We made them slightly smaller so we could fit a few more.
• There will be a lot of people in those condos, all connected to the greenway! That will be like 200 extra people on the greenway every day! Are you going to make McCabe greenway improvements to handle that additional density? [Editor's note: This complaint gets originality points. Our greenways will be overrun. Please, no more pedestrians!]
  • Murphy: It's not uncommon to force developers to pay for greenway improvements.
• If you don’t get the SP, are you done? Would the redevelopment not happen?
  • Developer answer: Rezoning is a key part of our plan. That's our focus.
• I can tell you that this community does not want high rise buildings. “We want to elevate our neighborhood, not our buildings.” I want to see a rendering of all four high rise buildings. Listen to your community; this is not what we want (Claps).
  • Developer answer: We'll have that full rendering for the next meeting. We didn't have it this time because we've been busy redesigning everything based on your feedback.

Affordability Questions

• Will there be any affordable units? (Claps)
  • Developer answer: We're planning on market rate. (Some other guy in the crowd was upset by this answer and demanded to know the specific condo prices. The developer said they don't know yet because it's years away. The guy did not accept this answer.)
  • Murphy: The state took away our ability to force developers to build affordable housing or condition SPs on affordable housing.

Walkability Questions

• Talk about pedestrian and bike access.
  • Developer answer: Enhanced sidewalk widths, beyond MCSP. Developers are NOT recommending bike lanes to nowhere on Harding, so that frees up some extra sidewalk or landscaping space. White Bridge should be easier to cross as pedestrian because they want to fix the split phase timing. There might also be improved bus stops.

Miscellaneous Questions

• Why should the community agree to this? What are we getting out of it?
  • Developer answer: The creek/greenway area will be really nice.
• This development is moving quickly. It’s hard for the community to process and have time to comment.
  • Murphy says that it’s good to move quickly so that the development team has to get their information in more quickly.
• I've lived here for a long time and I barely even heard about this meeting! I don't live in Hillwoood so I'm not connected to Council Member Murphy.
  • Murphy: I share information on my email list and on social media. The development team is required to mail information to nearby property owners. There's a website with all the info. I don't know what else you want me to do.
• Can we do the next meeting in a bigger space? That holds like 1,000 people?
  • Murphy: It’s up to the development team. They pay for all these talks. [Editor's note: I cannot imagine doing this Q&A with 1,000 people.]
• You [Council Member Murphy] said you were in favor of this project!
  • Murphy: I have never said I am in favor of this project. I am neutral until we have all the facts.
• Don’t pretend like you [the developers] have our interests in at heart, that you’re so happy to hear our feedback! You’re only doing this because you have to! Murphy, I want you to have an opinion on this! I don't want you to be neutral! I voted for you. You represent me. You’re supposed to support us. We don’t buy your crap! (Claps). [Angriest comment of the evening.]
  • Murphy: I have a lot of people sending me emails in support and a lot of emails in opposition. We need to wait for all the facts.

Retail Questions

• I’m mad that only 10% of the development is retail. You’re depriving us of retail. Would you consider adding more retail? [Editors note: There is already so much retail along White Bridge.]
  • Developer answer: We already updated our plan to increase the retail space based on community feedback. Our plan will have way more storefronts than what is there now. We'll have more than double the number of existing retail storefronts and restaurants. We can fit more in less space because they're not super deep big box stores.
• I see where you’re coming from when you say the new development will reduce the number of car trips, because you’re taking away most of the retail. A small store might not serve the community! (Big claps). We want retail! 90% of this development is residential and won’t serve the surrounding community! You continually refer to this as being the corner of two arterial roads, but there’s no entrance on White Bridge! (Big claps). It’s confusing to keep track of all this information. I’m confused!
  • No developer response.

There was a disappointing notion repeated throughout the evening: "Commercial serves the community but residential doesn't serve the community." Longtime homeowners are the real community. Everyone else is lesser and should be kept out as much as possible. Strip malls and empty Stein Marts are better than apartments. Retail serves the community; residential does not.

This is—of course—a bottom-of-the-barrel, short-sighted, reactionary, unkind, unneighborly conception of community. There is nothing that serves a community more than housing. When we build housing, we invite people into our community! We literally make space for them, regardless of whether they rent or own. It's one of the most welcoming things we can do. Today, Hillwood suffers from a housing shortage. Council Member Murphy admitted that she couldn't afford the area had she not been raised there.

Sadly, that's the stagnate neighborhood many of her constituents want.

 

God this whole thing makes my blood boil.

"I don't trust experts on parking, I want more cars stored here." "I don't trust experts on traffic, I want less cars driving in/out of here." "I don't trust construction experts, don't put parking underground."

"I don't want more people on the public greenway." "I want to tell a private company developing one property what to do with neighboring properties."

"I want to have more retail here when there's abandoned retail nearby." "I would rather keep my massive empty parking lot than let someone build for new neighbors."

"I want market rate apartments." "I want affordable apartments." 

 

Could fewer councilmembers be a good thing if it waters down the representation of these luxury-million-dollar-detached-home-owning, freeze-my-neighborhood-in-amber, I-already-got-mine-don't-let-anyone-else-get-theirs, entitled brats?

[Luvemtall]

“Your making Atlanta right here in Nashville “ so lame, no we are making Nashville right here in Nashville. Again prime example of people not understanding that they live in a CITY! Nashville is NOT Williamson County, it’s Not a sleepy ole Southern Town, it one of America’s largest cities!   Then they want more parking and more retail, but less traffic, what a selfish statement. Just my opinion, but things like this boil my blood. If you desire open spaces, less traffic, less height and density then living in a city might not be the right choice for you. 

[BnaBreaker]

6 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

“Your making Atlanta right here in Nashville “ so lame, no we are making Nashville right here in Nashville. Again prime example of people not understanding that they live in a CITY! Nashville is NOT Williamson County, it’s Not a sleepy ole Southern Town, it one of America’s largest cities!   Then they want more parking and more retail, but less traffic, what a selfish statement. Just my opinion, but things like this boil my blood. If you desire open spaces, less traffic, less height and density then living in a city might not be the right choice for you. 

Exactly.  'I want all the things that I want, but I don't want to have to share them with anyone else.'  That's not how any of this works sweetheart.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by BnaBreaker

[Rick Dalton]

I hope when I’m old and wealthy that I don’t fight tooth and nail to save strip malls…

[Luvemtall]

21 minutes ago, natethegreat said:

I hope when I’m old and wealthy that I don’t fight tooth and nail to save strip malls…

Right. they rather have a old decaying strip plaza then a brand new, well thought out engineered development . Their comments and thinking are just selfish and lame, thinking of no one but themselves. 

[andywildman]

34 minutes ago, natethegreat said:

I hope when I’m old and wealthy that I don’t fight tooth and nail to save strip malls…

Yeah, same. But doing some introspection this morning. I like new buildings & new neighbors to support cool businesses - I understand that improving the tax base means less tax hikes for myself in the future - I even (gasp) ride the bus downtown from time to time. I live a block away from a Kroger (probably closer than any detached houses are to this strip mall)...

I love the 7-story proposal for the Diesel College in East Nashville - please put that on top of my Kroger and its parking lot. I'd be fine with a 12-story building (the new height proposed) - but I'm also an urban development nerd who spends my lunch break on this forum!

If I'm one of the ~50 neighbors in 1/4 mile of that tower, I understand the desire to shrink the height (see pic). from a 200' building as originally proposed - that's the height of the Modera and the Harlowe apartment towers in the Gulch, even though I think it's absolutely necessary in this city.

For everyone else coming from miles away and neighboring council districts worried about traffic patterns they don't understand, or people who hold nostalgia for that parking lot or some other "protect my neighborhood" nonsense, they can pound sand.