Great Mid West downtowns

[Exodus]

Well, Minneapolis is a clear second in the poll...

Which city is better known: Detroit. Why? Well, when I think of Detroit, I think of murder. But I also think of cars.

Minneapolis has the better known skyline.. but there are lots of people in this country and world who don't know where Minneapolis is.

It was recently written by Bill Bryson: "Perth is a lot like Minneapolis, just a nice, modern, and clean city."

We must also look at where these cities are going. Minneapolis is experiencing quite a spectacular boom downtown and the metro area is growing rapidly. Detroit's metro area is not growing that fast and Detroit proper is losing residents at an amazing rate (it's now around 900,000 compared with 1.8 million the 50s).

But I know no one is going to change their minds.. and if you're from Minneapolis, you're oging to think Minneapolis is better, and if you're from Detroit, you're gonna think Detroit is better..

Actually Detroit is coming along slowly, but it is still kinda crappy. Detroit is just obviously bigger. Add Detroits size, setup, and architecture with Minneapolisis economy and quality of life, and you would have one hell of a city. Which is basically describing Detroit 50 years ago.

[Exodus]

Just one question, shouldn't the Bank One Plaza count as two buildings ?

[AvianKeahi]

Just one question, shouldn't the Bank One Plaza count as two buildings ?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Bank One is 62 meters high. What other tower are you proposing?

[Exodus]

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Bank One is 62 meters high. What other tower are you proposing?

Bank one in Minneapolis has two towers, so obviously it should count as two towers.So shouldn't it have that extra tower counted on its skyscrapers list ? Just my opinion.

[AvianKeahi]

Bank one in Minneapolis has two towers, so obviously it should count as two towers.So shouldn't it have that extra tower counted on its skyscrapers list ? Just my opinion.

Oh, sorry. I thought you meant Bank One Tower in Detroit. The two-tower complex in Minneapolis is US Bank

Plaza. It used to be called Pillsbury Center and was Pillsbury's HQ until it got bought out by General Mills. Yes, it is two separate towers connected by an atrium. I didn't count it separately because I was lazy.

[hudkina]

speaking of two-tower complexes. Why isn't Detroit's Municipal Center split into two towers? Sure they're attached, but I think that they're so different that they could easily count as separate buildings. After all the five towers of the Ren Cen technically all have the same base.

[AvianKeahi]

.. Detroit is just obviously bigger...

Oh dear...Sorry to beat a dead horse, but here's the top 25 then...

(BTW, it's freakin' cold out tonight so I could spend time in front of the TV, race to the nearest bar or do something like this. I hope we all realize that we're skyscraper nerds. )

Hey, wait a minute! Racing to the nearest bar doesn't sound half-bad!

[AvianKeahi]

And BTW, I want to say again that I have a lot of respect for Detroit and its downtown. It's a great city. I'm not trying to be one of those weird freaks from KC or STL who can't get enough of bashing each other's cities. I'm just trying to respectfully point out that we often have misconceptions about size (get your mind out of the gutter ), and that some assumptions about Midwestern downtowns need to be altered.

We should all take field trips to other Midwestern cities and list every great thing we can find.

[bobjgumby]

And BTW, I want to say again that I have a lot of respect for Detroit and its downtown. It's a great city. I'm not trying to be one of those weird freaks from KC or STL who can't get enough of bashing each other's cities. I'm just trying to respectfully point out that we often have misconceptions about size (get your mind out of the gutter ), and that some assumptions about Midwestern downtowns need to be altered.

We should all take field trips to other Midwestern cities and list every great thing we can find.

Why is everyone so fixated on the size. Looking at your comparisons more of the buildings in MSP are newer mostly glass buildings compared to Detroit's older more opulent towers. I'll take Detroits Cathedrals of Finance over new crap anyday. Detroit has it's share of modern crap but outside of New York and Chicago no one can match the quality.

[AvianKeahi]

Why is everyone so fixated on the size. Looking at your comparisons more of the buildings in MSP are newer mostly glass buildings compared to Detroit's older more opulent towers. I'll take Detroits Cathedrals of Finance over new crap anyday. Detroit has it's share of modern crap but outside of New York and Chicago no one can match the quality.

^Because the issue we've been repeatedly addressing in this sub-section is simply downtown size. If you want to address aesthetics, that's a whole different issue.

You might want to claim that Detroit has "better" older buildings. I probably wouldn't disagree with you. There are a lot of beautiful older buildings in Detroit. However, if you automatically think that "old" = "beautiful" then I have a problem with that.

There are a of crappy older buildings, just as there are a lot of crappy newer buildings. However Minneapolis' and St. Paul's most important "modern" buildings have been designed by some of the world's leading architects today. Cesar Pelli, Phillip Johnson, Jean Nouvel, Herzog & DeMeuron, Frank Gehry, Michael Graves, Kenzo Tange and I.M. Pei to name but a few. Many of these structures are just as architecturally significant - if not more so - than anything built in Detroit in the last 100 years.

One other point: If you want to disparage "glass towers" then you should come down hard on the Renaissance Center as well. (And I have to admit that I do. I've been in several of Portman's buildings and I think he is a one-trick pony. The RenCen is an urban design disaster)

If you think "old" equals "quality" then you need to re-examine your assumptions about design.

[KCMOlover]

I can't fathom why Detroit is ranking so high for it's downtown. My impression was that dowtown Detroit except for that icon 4 tower building, leaves allot to be desired. If I'm mistaken, please show me.

[ShowMeKC]

I voted for Minneapolis because Chicago is just a default winner... It shouldn't really be on the list.

[MJLO]

guys we need to get some pics of the Detroit Skyline up, Id put pics on here, I can't figure out how,

KCMOlover, I'd suggest checking out the Detroit Picture thread If you took out the Reniassance Center, Detroits skyline is still impressive, It's got some of the best architechture collections in the country. Some of the best Neo-gothic predepression architechture in the world. Anyway check that link out, it'll show some good, some bad, but either way should be able to educate you a little better on one of the country's largest cities.

[hudkina]

He saw my "All Star Downtown" thread about 20 minutes after he posted here, so I'm not going to post any of those here.

[AvianKeahi]

Best in the midwest? Obviously Chicago. 2nd best in the Midwest? Obviously Minneapolis. 3rd best in the Midwest? Obviously Detroit.

[tony speller]

Even if this were a Chicago vs. every other downtown in the midwest combined, Chicago would still win...

what if every other downtown were named... downtown Ditka???

oh wait, isn't Ditka from Chicago!? Now THAT'S controversy

[hood]

Best in the midwest? Obviously Chicago. 2nd best in the Midwest? Obviously Minneapolis. 3rd best in the Midwest? Obviously Detroit.

Chicago may be the obvious #1, but from a purely architecturl standpoint I'd take Detroit over Minneapolis anyday. It just so happens that Detroit has fell on about 40 years of hard times and is just now digging itself out, in 10 or 15 years I think theres a decent chance that Detroit will have regained it's rightful position as #2 in the Midwest.

[AvianKeahi]

Chicago may be the obvious #1, but from a purely architecturl standpoint I'd take Detroit over Minneapolis anyday. It just so happens that Detroit has fell on about 40 years of hard times and is just now digging itself out, in 10 or 15 years I think theres a decent chance that Detroit will have regained it's rightful position as #2 in the Midwest.

I appreciate your opinion. Detroit does have a lot of good older buildings, but I don't think age automatically qualifies for being good architecture. There are a lot of crappy old buildings, just as there are a lot of crappy new buildings.

My opinion is tainted by the fact that I tend to be a modernist. Hence, to me, Minneapolis/St.Paul has a better collection of great buildings than does Detroit right now. Just about every major architect today has a building in the Twin Cities. While that doesn't mean those are automatically great, it does give an edge to the Twin Cities for adventurousness in design, and that is definitely a hallmark for good architecture and good urbanism.

[hudkina]

Detroit doesn't have as many post-modern glass boxes as Minneapolis, but they didn't stop building skyscrapers in the 1920's. Detroit also happens to have a pretty impressive collection of post-war designs as well. It just happens that we have one of the greatest collections of pre-war stuff that usualyl overshadows the newer stuff. In fact, 11 of the 20 tallest buildings in Detroit were built after 1960.

Marriott Renaissance Center

Ren Cen 100

Ren Cen 200

Ren Cen 300

Ren Cen 400

Comerica Tower

150 West Jefferson

One Woodward Ave

McNamara Federal Building

Detroit Edison Plaza

211 West Fort St

Ren Cen 500

Ren Cen 600

1001 Woodward

Millender Center Apartments

SBC Building Addition

Blue Cross/Blue Shield Center

CAY Municipal Center

1300 Lafayette

Riverfront Towers II

Riverfront Towers III

[GRDadof3]

I'm sorry, all those post 1960 buildings are nice and all, but Detroit's skyline (or streetscapes for that matter) don't even come close to Minneapolis'.

[hudkina]

In you're opinion.

[GRDadof3]

In you're opinion.

Of course it's my opinion. Aren't these all "opinions"? I would almost go so far as to say, in my humble opinion, Grand Rapids' streetscapes are better than Detroit's. But then again, it's just my opinion. It's hard to hide 40 years of urban flight to the "unbiased" visitor.

[hudkina]

Downtown has surged back to a point it hasn't been since the 1970's, so regardless of the condition of the rest of the city, yes the "unbiased" visitor will generally be impressed with the downtown area.

[dtown]

Downtown has surged back to a point it hasn't been since the 1970's, so regardless of the condition of the rest of the city, yes the "unbiased" visitor will generally be impressed with the downtown area.

though i am a little biased, i was just in The D, and yes, i was impressed with downtown, though i will admit there is still work to be done, but it was better even since last time i was there.

[AvianKeahi]

Sorry, just re-posting this since the ImageHosting website seems to have imploded recently. The graphic below just refers to a few posts back regarding the simple issue of height & massing of Minneapolis & Detroit. I don't mean to re-open the debate, but I got a couple of e-mails wondering where the original images were...