KENNEDY PLAZA

[Recchia]

Highrises IN the plaza? Eh I dont know bout that. They could put in a slightly more substantial "Intermodal Station" (oh yeah, and maybe make it INTERMODAL beyond buses and bikes). I like how it is now, with the open plaza looking up at a row of high rises. I could see a highrise on Parcel 12 though, something to add some presence to that corner.

[Gusterfell]

Hello all!

Just a couple thoughts to share.

No, if we just turn Kennedy Plaza into a big downtown park, you end up with something like the New Haven Green.

[CtownMikey]

my only reason for those kennedy plaza high rises is that after i viewed the new city aerial rendering.. the westin, otw, and waterplace condos didn't seem to make much of an impact (as far as skyline change goes) but then again, I guess I need to see it in person.. from street level

[Frankie811]

We already have a park in Kennedy Plaza. It's called Burnside park. Spruce it up so that it can become more than a bedroom community for the homeless.

[Cotuit]

We already have a park in Kennedy Plaza. It's called Burnside park. Spruce it up so that it can become more than a bedroom community for the homeless.

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Yes, Providence has this problem (it's called money) where they think an unkempt patch of grass is all that's needed to have a park. I picture for Kennedy Plaza, whether it's the plaza itself or Burnside, a place more like Post Office Square in Boston, or Bryant Park in New York (two of the best public parks I've ever been to). Both have small food vendors and seating, giving office workers a place to head to during the day. Both have well kept lawns that people enjoy lounging on (would you want to lay down in the grass at Burnside? Look out for needles!). And Bryant has no end of events, music, summer movies, Fashion Week, a holiday arts and crafts sale, David Blaine on a pole...

[AriPVD]

I can't disagree more with most of the posts on this topic. I believe that the current condition of Kennedy Plaza is an abomination in a number of ways. First, it deprives the city of what could be (and once was) a monumental civic space, neighborhood center and important urban amenity. Second, it obscures the bigger issue--the abysmal state of public transit in Providence. I know many of you have lauded the current bus system, but as I've written before, I've done alot of research on RIPTA and Kennedy Plaza specifically. The finances of the system are in dire shape, and require bailouts and route cuts almost every year. Furthermore, the majority of riders (based on empirical research) are people who have no choice but to take public transit, resulting in a divided, class-based system.

The system that I've designed includes an east-west light rail line running from Wayland Square to Eagle Square with a stop on Washington Street through Kennedy Plaza (in addition to six other stops along the line). I believe that the light rail should be connected to Providence Station by a people mover up Exchange Street, where the remaining RIPTA buses, commuter rail and interstate rail are already or can be concentrated. This would create much needed inter-modality and synergy between the systems. I've also designed a seven line tracked or trackless streetcar/trolley system to connect all of Providence's neighborhoods to the east-west light rail line. I'd be happy to post some maps later.

I also have recorded more than a dozen conversations with business leaders who have offices on Kennedy Plaza, many threatening to reassess the location of their businesses based on the current bus terminal. This is not what the center of our city should look or feel like. Just sit for ten minutes and observe the space--you will see most people who are not bus riders avoiding the bus-dominated center and dodging the buses which dominate the landscape. Bryant Park in NY, Piazza Navona in Rome, and Rittenhouse Sq. in Philadelphia are all be examples of how urban public space can succeed. Even Pioneer Sq. in Portland, which integrates a light rail in the center and buses and trolleys on the edge is a particularly pleasing and heavily patronized space. In my opinion, Kennedy Plaza fails miserably by excluding a large portion of residents and visitors.

Sorry, get a little worked up about this. I greatly believe that reworking Kennedy Plaza is crucial to the success of Downcity. I also believe that the public transit system must be improved if Downcity is to thrive. It should still be concentrated downtown, but not on top of the city's historic civic center. As someone mentioned, Station Park is available for expansion of the Providence Station.

[Cotuit]

I'd be happy to post some maps later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I pretty much agree with everything you say, and hope to see those maps sooner rather than later.

My one reservation with any change to Kennedy Plaza is that we need to make solid plans for the future Providence transit system before we go changing things.

[AriPVD]

lightrail.pdf

lightrail.pdf

[TheAnk]

lightrail.pdf

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I think this would be great.. But I just don't see the need for more public transportation in Prov.. The current isn't used to its utmost. Providence is a manageable city by foot and car.. Its never gridlocked, and there isn't a great commute push to downtown during rush hours..

The only gridlock is on the highways, and that generally cause by people passing THROUGH Prov..

Until the population increases and congestion becomes a serious problem, there won't be any new transportation.. There just isn't the need for it..

[eltron]

I think this would be great.. But I just don't see the need for more public transportation in Prov.. The current isn't used to its utmost. Providence is a manageable city by foot and car.. Its never gridlocked, and there isn't a great commute push to downtown during rush hours..

The only gridlock is on the highways, and that generally cause by people passing THROUGH Prov..

Until the population increases and congestion becomes a serious problem, there won't be any new transportation.. There just isn't the need for it..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the ideas are great, but if you are looking to lend a bit of reality to the scenario, a comprehensive rail system is not happening in our lifetime, or probably even the next couple of lifetimes.

The current RIPTA system isn't sustainable as it is, and a rail system focused on Providence would be even tougher financially in a city the size and layout of Providence. At best, I think we could hope for one or two BRT lines, and I think that might be pushing it for the near future.

Striving for improved transit is undoubtedly a good goal, but its got to be smart and feasible within current and forecastable realities.

As far as Kennedy Plaza, others have noted that it has never been more than a transit hub or kinda marketplace. and I see no problem with the current use there. If the Providence 2020 plan is anywhere close to implemented, I think the new park at the end of Dorrance, connect with the River System, would make a fine central civic space.

[AriPVD]

No, a comprehensive rail won't happen soon, but much of Providence neighborhood density is higher than other cities with light rail, like Salt Lake, Tuscon and Portland. The east-west corridor is very densely populated with residents, students and business people. Not to mention, public transit should not just take into account residential density but rather locational attributes like the city center.

[Cotuit]

I think the line would be more successfull if it went west to Route 295 via Route 6, a large, cheap parking facility at Routes 6 & 295 could get people to use the line to commute. Easterly, I would send it through the abandoned rail tunnel to East Providence. East Siders will never allow surface tracks through their neighbourhoods. Going to EP also allows for an easterly parking structure.

There are expensive engineering challenges probably to send the line out Route 6 and to get it from Atwells Ave. to Route 6, but I think that's the best way to make a successfull line.

[Garris]

First, it deprives the city of what could be (and once was) a monumental civic space, neighborhood center and important urban amenity. 

I'm not so sure about this... I mean, at best, it could be a big lawn or a big plaza. There's no beach, water, lake, etc... It would be bordered by 4 major streets, with little sense of isolation. It would be a big draw for loitering in that location, especially if any transportation options were to be nearby. And Providence hasn't developed or maintained any if its major parks well, so it has the potential to be a big eyesore as well... I don't know, I keep thinking "New Haven Green..."

Second, it obscures the bigger issue--the abysmal state of public transit in Providence. 

Public transit's current bus system is underdeveloped. I don't think new modalities, while nice, are needed right now, and TheAnk and eltron are spot on as to why.

I also have recorded more than a dozen conversations with business leaders who have offices on Kennedy Plaza, many threatening to reassess the location of their businesses based on the current bus terminal...  Bryant Park in NY, Piazza Navona in Rome, and Rittenhouse Sq. in Philadelphia are all be examples of how urban public space can succeed.  Even Pioneer Sq. in Portland, which integrates a light rail in the center and buses and trolleys on the edge is a particularly pleasing and heavily patronized space. 

I wonder how many of those business leaders' employees use the buses based there...

As for the other examples you list, I never quite liked Bryant Park for some reason, although it is undoubtedly pretty. I love Rittenhouse Sq, but it's more analogous to something like Gramarcy Park in NYC, being mostly a residential and hotel based small square, and not in the center of the downtown. That's a very different setting from the more centralized, institutionalized Kennedy Plaza location. And I was never so impressed by Pioneer Sq, which I found somewhat brutal and cold.

In my opinion, Kennedy Plaza fails miserably by excluding a large portion of residents and visitors.

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Perhaps... I think the whole Kennedy Plaza area is under utilized. Given its traffic, it should have much more commerical and retail options. It would be a good location for a public marketplace, perhaps as part of the underdeveloped neighboring park.

I don't know. Whatever happens to that space, given it's location surrounded by major roads and near major institutions, I think it'll always be a place people walk or drive by rather that a place people go to as a destination. It's quite fine, in my opinion, as a transport center.

- Garris

[Nyuszi]

I disagree that the fact that the current system is underutilized points to the fact that a bigger, better system would be as well. Just look at Portland (OR), when they invested in light rail instead of more highways, it actually DID draw people to use the system.

As someone earlier pointed out, the ridership is mostly people who are FORCED to take the bus, usually because they're on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder. Most people, at least subconsciously, view trams, trolleys, and undergrounds as "classier" than stinky old busses. So, though I think the project would requiore an initial investment that RIPTA doesn't seem to have, it would probably be more profitable than the current one (not that that's saying much).

And, finally, I'm an East Sider (though a renter, so I have no voice in a lot of these matters) and I DREAM of having tracks through my neighborhood! Literally every time I go down Blackstone, I wistfully think of what the trolley must have been like. But I know I'm a weirdo and in the minority there.

[ArtInRuins]

If Providence wants to grow, and it needs to grow to support more retail and services and public transport (and tax base), then something will need to be done in Kennedy Plaza. Back in the day, the main terminal was Union Station... INDOORS. The buses went underneath, and the trains above. The train tracks dividing the city weren't a good idea, but the central node was taken out of the public park and into a building... much better idea... like a Grand Central. The park in front of Union Station was great.

Maybe what we need is more street level interaction with the plaza by the surrounding buildings... no one fronts the plaza in a meaningful way except the 7-11 and the CVS. Everything else is just offices, so there isn't any meaningful exchange between the plaza and the buildings, just buses and passengers.

[Garris]

Maybe what we need is more street level interaction with the plaza by the surrounding buildings... no one fronts the plaza in a meaningful way except the 7-11 and the CVS. Everything else is just offices, so there isn't any meaningful exchange between the plaza and the buildings, just buses and passengers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely the correct solution to the Kennedy Center problem...

- Garris

[Frankie811]

Produce sold in Kennedy Plaza

http://www.locallygrownfood.com/about/mondaymarket.php

[Citydweller]

I don't know about being in the minority but you are no weirdo. I will be attempting the next year to drum up support for bringing back the streetcar (not on Blackstone yet) to Providence. It has been done many places, it can be privately financed, and is much cheaper than full scale lightrail.

Literally every time I go down Blackstone, I wistfully think of what the trolley must have been like.  But I know I'm a weirdo and in the minority there.

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[Cotuit]

Maybe what we need is more street level interaction with the plaza by the surrounding buildings... no one fronts the plaza in a meaningful way except the 7-11 and the CVS. Everything else is just offices, so there isn't any meaningful exchange between the plaza and the buildings, just buses and passengers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely the correct solution to the Kennedy Center problem...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a sound urban strategy, but is it possible in Kennedy Plaza? The Plaza is ringed with buildings such as the Federal Buildings, City Hall, and the Superman Building. None of these structures are going to have Plaza level store fronts. 50 Kennedy Plaza has some retail within that at least advertises itself to the Plaza, but I don't see it having anything opening on the Plaza. There's also a number of loading docks and parking garage entrances fronting the Plaza. I'm not sure that anything other than CVS and 7-Eleven ever can front the Plaza. Finding a better use for the 7-Eleven spot could help, a restaurant that could have sidewalk seating, but I doubt anyone would want to open something like that at that location.

[scdavies1]

I absolutely agree with Artinruins that more street level interaction is needed in the plaza. The farmer's market is one way to draw people in.

Re: light rail, I also don't think that its going to happen any time soon. And frankly, I think we already have a great solution to the public transit/bus stigma -- the trolleys. People love these; they're relatively enviro-friendly, attractive, historic ... I wish that RIPTA could convert many more routes to these and I think we would see ridership increase. Of course if we had better stops that didn't make people feel like they were drug dealers or up to no good -- better signage, more coverage, etc. (sometimes I really hate waiting for the bus).

[Cotuit]

I like the trolley concept, but I don't like the trolleys. The seats are not comfortable, there's that one seat with the wheel hump that everyone avoids, the ride is horrible, the suspension on them is non-existant, they can't run in the snow, and the wheelchair lifts are a constant problem.

I'd like to see a more modern looking, small, low-floor vehicle with some crazy paint job that makes people want to know what they are and where they're going. Comfortable seats, shorter headways, more routes... The lower floors will not only facilitate wheelchair boarding but will allow elderly people and people with young children and strollers to more easily board the buses.

[citygirl]

As someone earlier pointed out, the ridership is mostly people who are FORCED to take the bus, usually because they're on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder.  Most people, at least subconsciously, view trams, trolleys, and undergrounds as "classier" than stinky old busses.  So, though I think the project would requiore an initial investment that RIPTA doesn't seem to have, it would probably be more profitable than the current one (not that that's saying much).

And, finally, I'm an East Sider (though a renter, so I have no voice in a lot of these matters) and I DREAM of having tracks through my neighborhood!  Literally every time I go down Blackstone, I wistfully think of what the trolley must have been like.  But I know I'm a weirdo and in the minority there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I, too, am an East Sider. It took me weeks to discover that a bus actually runs along Elmgrove Avenue! The bus stops are apparently hidden deliberately, no doubt to discourage use by the "loitering" bus riders. The schedule is ridiculous -- it's like they're playing at being a real bus service. It starts late, never runs on time, and ends while a lot of people are still trying to get home from work!

I took the bus from the airport once, and I believe I was the only non-hotel worker on it! It wasn't a terrible trip (for $1.25 it sure beat $35 for a taxi!) but it was only by luck that I made my connection at Kennedy Plaza. Otherwise, I would have had to wait almost an hour for the next bus.

Parking --- that's all anyone in RI seems to get passionate about!

[Garris]

I, too, am an East Sider.  It took me weeks to discover that a bus actually runs along Elmgrove Avenue!  The bus stops are apparently hidden deliberately, no doubt to discourage use by the "loitering" bus riders. 

Yup, you're right. My sister takes the Elmsgrove line to get to the JCC often, but it only runs in one direction! A perfect example of RIPTA madness... To go inbound, you have to do it from Blackstone. So you can take the bus to Brown Stadium, the JCC, etc, but you just can't take it back

The schedule is ridiculous -- it's like they're playing at being a real bus service.  It starts late, never runs on time, and ends while a lot of people are still trying to get home from work! 

Exactly, well said. I'm on the East Side too, and just had to stop using RIPTA, since, if I had to work late, I had no easy way to get home without it taking like 2 hours of waiting. Also, when commuting, I have no idea why they have many of their outbound buses scheduled to leave Kennedy Plaza like 2 minutes before their inbounds arrive. How hard can it be to coordinate your outbounds leaving after most of your inbounds arrive?

- Garris

[citygirl]

Also, when commuting, I have no idea why they have many of their outbound buses scheduled to leave Kennedy Plaza like 2 minutes before their inbounds arrive. How hard can it be to coordinate your outbounds leaving after most of your inbounds arrive?

- Garris

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[Frankie811]

http://www.projo.com/opinion/editorials/co...za.1c9fe31.html