Wilmore, Charlotte

[Charlotte_native]

Oh well, when my partner is there working every day and when i am there visiting friends or others every day, or when we are drinking at Phat Burrito it is nothing like you guys have described. I guess if homeless people and children selling drugs scare you, then there are 3 corners to avoid.

Maybe it will never be like Dilworth, but coming from someone that has lived in Dilworth ten years and worked in Wilmore 5, i completely disagree. As for the 60's and 70's houses on Dunkirk and Spruce street, no one buys there -- it might as well be a different neighborhood.

Stated again, those of us the 'knew' Wilmore will have a hard time accepting the new Wilmore -- but for those that have moved there or opened businesses there and are actually there daily, we know a different story.

[Charlotte_native]

Also, those streets are very dark at night. Who do you have to call to get some street lights in that neighborhood? Seems like it would help a little.

If you haven't met "Mutha" yet, he is the unofficial mayor of Wilmore. He has lived on Park Ave for 10 years -- WAY before it was safe to live there, and is highly motivated for the area to come around. Go by Phat Burrito any sunny afternoon and look for the huge (6'5) ultra-tan guy that will be bouncing around talking to everyone and drinking Michelob Ultra. He will jump on board for lights if you are willing to help!

[lewy2000]

Thanks! I know Mutha (who doesn't!?). I'll give him a call.

[voyager12]

I have only been renting in Dilworth a year and a half but my neighbors who have owned homes here for decades tell me what is now the most popular neighborhood in Charlotte was a very scary hood for a very long time. I echo comments that Wilmore is not going to be a copy of Dilworth. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Dilworth was carefully planned and laid out. The abundant parks and wide boulevards are not accidental. Wilmore was not carefully devised has a much more edgy, diverse, urban feel which I think is cool and hope is maintained. The sector nearest Dilworth/Southend does seem to be gentrifying rapidly. The other side closer to the freeways will move at a much slower place. Wilmore is not a safe neighborhood today. That does not mean people should not move there. Everyone has a different comfort level. Dilworth is one of the safer neighborhoods in Charlotte and there have been break ins along Worthington, a home invasion on Magnolia, car theft, not to mention the arsons. Heck, at least drug dealing is a voluntary activity These are city neighborhoods is my point. Crime should be fought to a reasonable level but its a daily fact of urban life.

[monsoon]

I remember Dilworth from those days. (late 70s) Yes it was rundown, but the big difference is that crime then was not nearly as violent as it is now. Dilworth managed to gentrify and move on before the crack and cocaine instigated crime became common in the mid to late 80s. Other neighborhoods have had a much harder time after that with moving forward.

[Charlotte_native]

I remember Dilworth from those days. (late 70s) Yes it was rundown, but the big difference is that crime then was not nearly as violent as it is now. Dilworth managed to gentrify and move on before the crack and cocaine instigated crime became common in the mid to late 80s. Other neighborhoods have had a much harder time after that with moving forward.

If you think dealing and loitering on the corners in Wilmore is bad now...try 3 or more years ago. It was REAL scary. Every vacant home would get broken into, intimidation on the street was awful. It is far from perfect now, but most of the problems are going away almost monthly and the only residual crime is small property crime and dealing. The only voilent crime I am aware of in the past year was two dealers shooting at each other. Two years ago there was a robbery of a construction guy. That is definitely not the definition of a neighborhood with a voilent crime problem (see Belmont, Camp Green, Seversville, Bruns, Lincoln Heights, Columbus Circle). It certainly is a problem to continue to work on.

The dealers will go with their customers, remember, it is a business that needs cash flow -- with so many houses changing in the area, many of the dealers themselves are gone, but their "clients" are also. The kids on the corner will be completely gone when the buyers have moved on because they will be wasting their time. It would also help if the corner stores would disappear. The one on Mint and Spruce allows the dealers to operate out of it, I've watched the taxis pull up, drop the carriers off, they run in the store and then the corner is full of jolly little ranchers waiting to make a buck.

There are three large properties that are being transferred between owners that have been havens for dealing and using for years (one on your street Lewy) and when those change hands quite a few of these problems will be eliminated.

I never meant to imply that Wilmore would be "like" Dilworth in any other context than eventually in pricing. It is a completely different neighborhood, different history, much smaller, different influences, etc. BUT the prices of the homes will be in-line with Dilworth soon (2 - 3 years) based on the past 4 years of changes. It is already close -- the gap used to be $50/sf homes (Wilmore) compared to $200/sf (Dilworth) -- now it is $170-200/sf in Wilmore to $250/300 in Dilworth. This is based on sales and fact, not opinion. With the developments coming to the corridors through the neighborhood (Mint and Tryon) and along it on South, the persistent influx of new homeowners (not investors -- rentals sit vacant for months there), and the constant investment of tons of money in these homes, only a market change to the whole city could stop what is going on.

As for the part of the 'hood along I-77, carve that part out of any of these discussions. It will be a LONG time before that is a hot area if ever though there has been a push by two different home builders to buy every single house along Dunkirk (the street with the 60's homes that are frame but look like trailers) and scrape the whole street.

[sleightofhand]

Man, you guys are describing a different Wilmore than the one I know.

I live in Wilmore, go walking, running, and driving through it everyday and have never had one problem.

Go figure.

[ElricSeven]

Man, you guys are describing a different Wilmore than the one I know.

I live in Wilmore, go walking, running, and driving through it everyday and have never had one problem.

Go figure.

I don't think the point is that it is a war zone. Just that it isn't as safe as the more gentrified neighborhoods and that the prices there have outstripped its value due to speculative activities. It's a matter of degree, but when you're emotionally invested in your own neighborhood I know it is easy to get upset about any negative comments. The neighborhood is 50% there and has come a long way, just not enough to justify the recent huge price increases. Again, it isn't four times better than it was two years ago, but it is four times as expensive. The prices are what Dilworth was two years ago and the neighborhood just isn't anywhere near that nice yet. Could be (I hope) someday though. It's good for Charlotte as a whole.

[dubone]

This is a run up of values very similar to other neighborhoods along mass transit rail lines. 2 years ago, it was just a proposal. Now it is under construction. It might be be 4 times safer or better, but the values reflect the jump that occurs near a rail line being built.

[atlrvr]

Dubone

Do you expect we will see these increases all the way along the corridor?

[ElricSeven]

This is a run up of values very similar to other neighborhoods along mass transit rail lines. 2 years ago, it was just a proposal. Now it is under construction. It might be be 4 times safer or better, but the values reflect the jump that occurs near a rail line being built.

I'd believe that, but the rail line isn't really practical walking distance from Wilmore unless I'm missing something.

[dubone]

Yes, but it'll stop just short of Archdale, which will plummet considerably .

I think the values are increasing the most, though from Scaleybark to SouthEnd within the station areas.

I'd believe that, but the rail line isn't really practical walking distance from Wilmore unless I'm missing something.

The values of the houses west of Mint surprise me, but for example, if one bought at Kinston and Mint, it'd be only 5 blocks to the station.

[ElricSeven]

Yes, but it'll stop just short of Archdale, which will plummet considerably .

I think the values are increasing the most, though from Scaleybark to SouthEnd within the station areas.

The values of the houses west of Mint surprise me, but for example, if one bought at Kinston and Mint, it'd be only 5 blocks to the station.

Five blocks is a long way, assuming you're going Uptown you might as well walk straight to work. I think the proximity to Uptown and the popular Craftsman style homes is what draws people to the area. That, and the thought that they're going to make a killing in appreciation.

[Charlotte_native]

I still don't agree that the neighborhood is only 50% there. I just don't know where one draws that figure from. There is a ton of activity in Wilmore (and I am not offended by negative comments, I don't live there and don't get offended by this stuff -- it just isn't accurate).

To say the neighborhood hasn't improved to match appreciation is solely based ones opinion. To have the volume of homes improved along with the higher end improvements ($ in to each home sold high end). I personally think it was long undervalued and is only now reaching the typical values found in other neighborhoods this close to the center city. It is catching up, not surpassing. In a sense Wilmore is unlike any other neighborhood that is or has been going up in the last 5 years. Most, or all, others were set apart in some way -- separated from other areas that were much higher in price. Not that they might not share a boundary somewhere, but Wesley Heights is set apart pretty much upto itself -- so is NoDa -- so is Belmont. Wilmore is adjacent to one of the hottest selling neighborhoods in the city, adjacent to the new rail lines, adjacent to new mixed use / shopping / bars and food, and is 3 blocks from downtown.

Add to that, as stated before, these are not investors holding homes they paid too much for -- these are homeowners that live in the homes they bought -- obviously they had some confidence in the neighborhood enough to live there. I have different sets of friends who live in the neighborhood that have kids that range from 2 months to 6 years old. They are there for the long haul and in no way did they move there just for investment.

Also note that sleightofhand and others who actually live there are commenting that comments made by those that don't are not accurate. I'm going to go with the opinion of the person that is there and sees everything first hand.

Either way we'll all just have to wait and see what happens and which end is more accurate.

[dubone]

I think you're right, that the older designs, the new renovations and the proximity to Dilworth, SouthEnd, and Uptown are the primary elements of the value. But I do think that being near the line is behind a lot of the momentum in the area. Being about a 5 minute walk to a mass transit rail line is not that far, especially if it saves you from having to walk farther.

[sleightofhand]

I'd believe that, but the rail line isn't really practical walking distance from Wilmore unless I'm missing something.

Geez, the rail line is three blocks from my condo. If that ain't walking distance I don't know what is.

It's like you guys are trying to trying to smear my hood.

[ElricSeven]

I still don't agree that the neighborhood is only 50% there. I just don't know where one draws that figure from. There is a ton of activity in Wilmore (and I am not offended by negative comments, I don't live there and don't get offended by this stuff -- it just isn't accurate).

To say the neighborhood hasn't improved to match appreciation is solely based ones opinion. To have the volume of homes improved along with the higher end improvements ($ in to each home sold high end). I personally think it was long undervalued and is only now reaching the typical values found in other neighborhoods this close to the center city. It is catching up, not surpassing. In a sense Wilmore is unlike any other neighborhood that is or has been going up in the last 5 years. Most, or all, others were set apart in some way -- separated from other areas that were much higher in price. Not that they might not share a boundary somewhere, but Wesley Heights is set apart pretty much upto itself -- so is NoDa -- so is Belmont. Wilmore is adjacent to one of the hottest selling neighborhoods in the city, adjacent to the new rail lines, adjacent to new mixed use / shopping / bars and food, and is 3 blocks from downtown.

Add to that, as stated before, these are not investors holding homes they paid too much for -- these are homeowners that live in the homes they bought -- obviously they had some confidence in the neighborhood enough to live there. I have different sets of friends who live in the neighborhood that have kids that range from 2 months to 6 years old. They are there for the long haul and in no way did they move there just for investment.

Also note that sleightofhand and others who actually live there are commenting that comments made by those that don't are not accurate. I'm going to go with the opinion of the person that is there and sees everything first hand.

Either way we'll all just have to wait and see what happens and which end is more accurate.

Sure. I predict a pretty significant slowdown in appreciation from 100% per year.

[Charlotte_native]

Sure. I predict a pretty significant slowdown in appreciation from 100% per year.

I will readily and 100% agree with that!

That pace can't be sustained, just catching up with the market.

[monsoon]

......

Do you expect we will see these increases all the way along the corridor?

It really depends upon how property and neighborhoods along the line are developed. The South LRT does go through a lot of "challenged" neighborhoods including places that have been headed in the wrong direction. (mostly south of woodlawn)

If the perception the Blue Line is something that people will want to ride outside of commuting hours then prices will go up. But if it gets the reputation of being unsafe and only for people that are low income, like the city bus system outside the express buses, then it won't have much effect on prices. This was what the NYC Subway was like in the 70s and 80s. Nobody would get on it once it got dark due to fears of crime. NYC revived greatly in the 90s and ridership on the subway there increased dramatically.

Transit does not cause neighborhoods to sink or swim, but if they manage to swim, they make it easier.

[Charlotte_native]

It really depends upon how property and neighborhoods along the line are developed. The South LRT does go through a lot of "challenged" neighborhoods including places that have been headed in the wrong direction. (mostly south of woodlawn)

If the perception the Blue Line is something that people will want to ride outside of commuting hours then prices will go up. But if it gets the reputation of being unsafe and only for people that are low income, like the city bus system outside the express buses, then it won't have much effect on prices. This was what the NYC Subway was like in the 70s and 80s. Nobody would get on it once it got dark due to fears of crime. NYC revived greatly in the 90s and ridership on the subway there increased dramatically.

Transit does not cause neighborhoods to sink or swim, but if they manage to swim, they make it easier.

I think you are quite right about the effects of the line not really hitting pricing in those areas south of Woodlawn, but that might actually help ridership since many that live between Woodlawn and Pineville might be blue collar commuters to jobs in the center city. We shouldn't assume the line is just for the better off -- I think it is great that it opens the job market to whole new areas for those folks along that part of the line that might not have cars. In that sense it might give a little boost to some affordable housing and in the least a boost to the rental market.

[ElricSeven]

I think you are quite right about the effects of the line not really hitting pricing in those areas south of Woodlawn, but that might actually help ridership since many that live between Woodlawn and Pineville might be blue collar commuters to jobs in the center city. We shouldn't assume the line is just for the better off -- I think it is great that it opens the job market to whole new areas for those folks along that part of the line that might not have cars. In that sense it might give a little boost to some affordable housing and in the least a boost to the rental market.

Unless, of course, some greedy developer goes in and starts buying up all the land around the rail lines and putting in fancy condos with granite countertops and plasma televisions.

[monsoon]

Unless, of course, some greedy developer goes in and starts buying up all the land around the rail lines and putting in fancy condos with granite countertops and plasma televisions.

That gets back to how the property along the is developed.

Until recently Marta in Atlanta could be considered a failure if the measure of its success was the revitalization of neighborhoods. Despite the fact that it is a full fledged high capacity heavy rail system (1 of only 2 in the south) many of the neighborhoods have died around its stations and despite being 30 years old, it has one of the lowest riderships of any heavy rail system in the USA. This is an example of transit not being a magic pill for development.

In the same token once the entire Blue line is built out, there will be a significant portion of stations South of Woodlawn and North of 30th street where there are some fairly high crime neighborhoods. If Charlotte is not going to repeat the mistake made in Atlanta, then it is going to have to start investing in these areas or running transit to them may have a negative effect on the entire line.

[MZT]

I know this is the Wilmore thread, but since we're talking quite a bit about the south of Woodlawn section, I will pipe in. On the whole, more professionals do seem to be moving into this part of town.

The property values are definately rising in Madison Park (Woodlawn to Tyvola). A house that would go for $160-ish 3 years ago will be $220-ish or more now. It's not Wilmore "rocket" rising value, but it's quite respectable.

Montclaire (Tyvola to Archdale) has risen a fair amount too, and the low end of housing there is now in the high 180-ish area with some owners getting low 200-ish prices.

Starmount (Archdale to Sharon West) is still lagging -- there are homes 120-ish available even now, but just in the last few months there have been some sales in the 160-170 area, with split levels getting close to 200.

I'll lay odds that although Starmount is the slowest boat, it will also "be discovered" in a year or two. The chief draw being that it does have large single family lots in a densifying city.

The real challenge will be the old 1970s style condos along Arrowwood and Sharon Road west. There have been foreclosures galore in these developments, some dumped off by the banks for $30K a unit. Absentee landlords buy them, and rent to section 8 and immigrant families.

[voyager12]

I don't think the murdered man found lying on Camden Saturday will help combat the unsafe image of the area. Although hopefully this is an isolated event and not indicative of an upward rise in crime.

[Charlotte_native]

I don't think the murdered man found lying on Camden Saturday will help combat the unsafe image of the area. Although hopefully this is an isolated event and not indicative of an upward rise in crime.

It certainlhy won't help. Did they ever come out with any details? Though it is bad for changing Wilmore, i can't think it is worse than the serial rapist who has been hitting Dilworth and Myers Park -- we aren't safe from crime anywhere.