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With Lafayette Square across the street and other condos being put in the next block I think it could become a Main Street version of the River Market main building.

Do you mean the museum building where the Museum of Discovery is located? I don't see the River Market itself being duplicated elsewhere.

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Do you mean the museum building where the Museum of Discovery is located? I don't see the River Market itself being duplicated elsewhere.

No, I was talking about the Ottenheimer Market Hall building. With additional condos in the area and the office buildings within a few blocks they could duplicate the way it is used. It could become a Main Street Market with a number of food related vendors. It would also be a place for people who go to the Rep a place before and after to gather. Now, as soon as a production is over they get in their cars and leave. It would also service the people who live south of Capitol Ave. to I-630 and east of Main. This area retained its population and is increasing with small condo projects and single family infill homes.

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No, I was talking about the Ottenheimer Market Hall building. With additional condos in the area and the office buildings within a few blocks they could duplicate the way it is used. It could become a Main Street Market with a number of food related vendors. It would also be a place for people who go to the Rep a place before and after to gather. Now, as soon as a production is over they get in their cars and leave. It would also service the people who live south of Capitol Ave. to I-630 and east of Main. This area retained its population and is increasing with small condo projects and single family infill homes.

I think we need a different type of development over there, perhaps something with a small grocery store incorporated into it and some shops to serve the needs of those living downtown. I think we need a lot more people living downtown first, though.

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I think we need a different type of development over there, perhaps something with a small grocery store incorporated into it and some shops to serve the needs of those living downtown. I think we need a lot more people living downtown first, though.

Main St. will not happen overnight. The River Martket is 10 years old this year and it started off with city funding.

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Main St. will not happen overnight. The River Martket is 10 years old this year and it started off with city funding.

We now are in most dire need of residential development and that will be entirely privately funded.

I'm not a big TIF fan but I would like to see one downtown. A TIF probably would've made enough money to fund free parking decks for the area similar to what's in Ft Worth and make a lot of quality street improvements, possibly even aiding River Rail expansion.

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We now are in most dire need of residential development and that will be entirely privately funded.

I'm not a big TIF fan but I would like to see one downtown. A TIF probably would've made enough money to fund free parking decks for the area similar to what's in Ft Worth and make a lot of quality street improvements, possibly even aiding River Rail expansion.

I wouldn't use a TIF for parking decks. LR's restaurant, hotel tax could help with River Rail expansion. I don't know if additional parking decks are needed at this time. There are city owned decks at 3rd and Main and another one at 6th and Scott(half block east of Main). There are at least eight other parking decks within a four block radius of 5th and Main. There is also underground parking at 6th and Louisiana. I think streetscape improvements is the one thing that is needed. There is more parking for the Main St. area as there is in the River Market.

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I wouldn't use a TIF for parking decks. LR's restaurant, hotel tax could help with River Rail expansion. I don't know if additional parking decks are needed at this time. There are city owned decks at 3rd and Main and another one at 6th and Scott(half block east of Main). There are at least eight other parking decks within a four block radius of 5th and Main. There is also underground parking at 6th and Louisiana. I think streetscape improvements is the one thing that is needed. There is more parking for the Main St. area as there is in the River Market.

I know we have parking decks. What I want are FREE parking decks. Cities that use them are a lot more successful with developing dense areas. That's what keeps the Plaza in KC and downtown Ft Worth humming. Paying $5 to park in a surface lot or in a deck 5 blocks away from your destination is a deterrent to casual shoppers and people just going for lunch or dinner and not staying.

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I know we have parking decks. What I want are FREE parking decks. Cities that use them are a lot more successful with developing dense areas. That's what keeps the Plaza in KC and downtown Ft Worth humming. Paying $5 to park in a surface lot or in a deck 5 blocks away from your destination is a deterrent to casual shoppers and people just going for lunch or dinner and not staying.

I don't see that lack of free parking in downtown Memphis or Chicago has stopped their development. I would rather walk five blocks in a developed downtown any day than walk across a Wal-mart parking lot even though it is free. If a downtown area is developed into something unique then paying for parking should not keep people away. Maybe the city could offer free parking in their decks after 5 or 6 for those who think 5 dollars is too much for parking but don't complain at 5 dollar drinks. The city even had some problems when they built the parking deck in the River Market. Not only did it take up land that could be developed for other purposes but would increase auto traffic in the area. The city wanted people not cars. What if another highrise condo project would have been built there instead? I thought the long range purpose of downtown LR was to increase the number of people that live there to the point they support downtown business.

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I don't see that lack of free parking in downtown Memphis or Chicago has stopped their development. I would rather walk five blocks in a developed downtown any day than walk across a Wal-mart parking lot even though it is free. If a downtown area is developed into something unique then paying for parking should not keep people away. Maybe the city could offer free parking in their decks after 5 or 6 for those who think 5 dollars is too much for parking but don't complain at 5 dollar drinks. The city even had some problems when they built the parking deck in the River Market. Not only did it take up land that could be developed for other purposes but would increase auto traffic in the area. The city wanted people not cars. What if another highrise condo project would have been built there instead? I thought the long range purpose of downtown LR was to increase the number of people that live there to the point they support downtown business.

I can see where Memphis was a valid example but Chicago? Please.

I know what you would do and what I would do (as if we are at all representative), but I'm telling you right now that there are a lot of people in Bryant, Conway, and West LR that are a little scared to go downtown. Maybe they want to go down there and eat at Bosco's or something but they're looking for excuses not to because it's inconvenient. Paying $5 to park is a big deterrent, especially if you're just going to shop at a single store or grab a quick lunch. Will it keep everyone away? Of course not. Will it decrease the numbers enough that we might only have 1/2 to 2/3 the number of successful businesses? Possibly. I think the new River Market garage and Main St garage should be free, I think it would help bring more people in that aren't the usual clientele and hook them on the area. I've seen it work in other places. Building the River Market district has been a 10 year struggle with as many losses as wins in private commercial investment, public projects are the backbone of the area. Anything we can do to tip the scales will help.

Edited by Aporkalypse
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I can see where Memphis was a valid example but Chicago? Please.

I know what you would do and what I would do (as if we are at all representative), but I'm telling you right now that there are a lot of people in Bryant, Conway, and West LR that are a little scared to go downtown. Maybe they want to go down there and eat at Bosco's or something but they're looking for excuses not to because it's inconvenient. Paying $5 to park is a big deterrent, especially if you're just going to shop at a single store or grab a quick lunch. Will it keep everyone away? Of course not. Will it decrease the numbers enough that we might only have 1/2 to 2/3 the number of successful businesses? Possibly. I think the new River Market garage and Main St garage should be free, I think it would help bring more people in that aren't the usual clientele and hook them on the area. I've seen it work in other places. Building the River Market district has been a 10 year struggle with as many losses as wins in private commercial investment, public projects are the backbone of the area. Anything we can do to tip the scales will help.

I put Chicago as an example of parking in a developed urban core.

Who is goin to pay for Free Parking? Maybe the local business could give out parking passes. As for a quick lunch I don't think a parking fee has much to do with it. If you work in an ofice building downtown the time spent getting your car, driving to the River Market, finding a place to park, eating, returing to your car,driving back to work and parking will not produce a quick lunch.

As for people living in Bryant, Conway or so if it wasn't a parking fee then they could find another excuse. The traffic, takes too long or money spent on gas come to mind.

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I put Chicago as an example of parking in a developed urban core.

Who is goin to pay for Free Parking? Maybe the local business could give out parking passes. As for a quick lunch I don't think a parking fee has much to do with it. If you work in an ofice building downtown the time spent getting your car, driving to the River Market, finding a place to park, eating, returing to your car,driving back to work and parking will not produce a quick lunch.

As for people living in Bryant, Conway or so if it wasn't a parking fee then they could find another excuse. The traffic, takes too long or money spent on gas come to mind.

Chicago also has an extensive rail system. It's a terrible example, LR and Chicago share nothing in common. Want to guess the downtown residential population of Chicago? Really, since Manhattan is one giant downtown it's obviously superior but aside from that Chicago easily has America's best downtown by far. It's a different animal.

I think improving accessibility is always a good thing. To continue to grow and bring in a bigger variety of commercial properties we need to make it easy to get in and out as well as making it affordable, otherwise every new retail establishment will go the way of Soho Furniture, Vesta's, Afr-Ja-Mex, and Stone County Ironworks. People don't want to pay $5 to walk around and browse when they can go to the mall or the boutique shops in the Heights for free.

If we get significantly more residential, though, we'll need considerably more parking for that anyway.

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Chicago also has an extensive rail system. It's a terrible example, LR and Chicago share nothing in common. Want to guess the downtown residential population of Chicago? Really, since Manhattan is one giant downtown it's obviously superior but aside from that Chicago easily has America's best downtown by far. It's a different animal.

I think improving accessibility is always a good thing. To continue to grow and bring in a bigger variety of commercial properties we need to make it easy to get in and out as well as making it affordable, otherwise every new retail establishment will go the way of Soho Furniture, Vesta's, Afr-Ja-Mex, and Stone County Ironworks. People don't want to pay $5 to walk around and browse when they can go to the mall or the boutique shops in the Heights for free.

If we get significantly more residential, though, we'll need considerably more parking for that anyway.

I think you just kind of touched on a great idea:

A HUGE parking deck, with a stop to the river rail at the bottom. Park at the deck, hop on the river rail that will take you to the rivermarket, Clinton Library, Alltel, the new stadium, etc., etc.

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Chicago also has an extensive rail system. It's a terrible example, LR and Chicago share nothing in common. Want to guess the downtown residential population of Chicago? Really, since Manhattan is one giant downtown it's obviously superior but aside from that Chicago easily has America's best downtown by far. It's a different animal.

I think improving accessibility is always a good thing. To continue to grow and bring in a bigger variety of commercial properties we need to make it easy to get in and out as well as making it affordable, otherwise every new retail establishment will go the way of Soho Furniture, Vesta's, Afr-Ja-Mex, and Stone County Ironworks. People don't want to pay $5 to walk around and browse when they can go to the mall or the boutique shops in the Heights for free.

If we get significantly more residential, though, we'll need considerably more parking for that anyway.

The point I was trying to make is if you dive into downtown Chicago you have to pay. The same as when you drive a car into downtown Memphis. If your reasoning was true about the establishment of retail then there should also be no retail in downtown Memphis. Although downtown Memphis has a greater population than LR's it is not enough to support their retail at this time. People pay. The retail you mentioned above did not close due to parking. There is alot of free parking in the River Market. A large number of locally owned retailers close no matter where they are located.

Any increase in residential should include their own parking. People who move downtown do not want to drive to shop or eat therefor the more residents the fewer parking places will be needed.

Parking decks are too expensive and take up too much space unless they are included in a mixed development.

One way to make parking decks a useful part of any development. Use a system of Urban Heat Credits for their development. Put a tax of $150 on each parking space of commercial use. Since parking lots are a large source of urban heat buildup. In order to avoid the tax a developer could build a deck. If the developer put in ground floor retail they would get a Heat Credit per parking space. If they landscaped the roof into a green space they would get another Credit per parking space. The same would follow if other development is built atop the deck. An example would be the Metropolitan Tower with a deck of almost 1000 spaces. They would not have a tax because it is a deck. But if they had included street level retail and a green top floor(roof) then they would have Heat Credits of 2,000 spaces. They could then turn around a sell the credits at market value to those with parking lots. This would not only work for a downtown area but all areas of a city. If a shopping center did not want to pay the tax they could build a deck. Then part of their old parking lot would be available for further development.

Money from they tax could go to transit.

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The point I was trying to make is if you dive into downtown Chicago you have to pay. The same as when you drive a car into downtown Memphis. If your reasoning was true about the establishment of retail then there should also be no retail in downtown Memphis. Although downtown Memphis has a greater population than LR's it is not enough to support their retail at this time. People pay. The retail you mentioned above did not close due to parking. There is alot of free parking in the River Market. A large number of locally owned retailers close no matter where they are located.

Any increase in residential should include their own parking. People who move downtown do not want to drive to shop or eat therefor the more residents the fewer parking places will be needed.

Parking decks are too expensive and take up too much space unless they are included in a mixed development.

One way to make parking decks a useful part of any development. Use a system of Urban Heat Credits for their development. Put a tax of $150 on each parking space of commercial use. Since parking lots are a large source of urban heat buildup. In order to avoid the tax a developer could build a deck. If the developer put in ground floor retail they would get a Heat Credit per parking space. If they landscaped the roof into a green space they would get another Credit per parking space. The same would follow if other development is built atop the deck. An example would be the Metropolitan Tower with a deck of almost 1000 spaces. They would not have a tax because it is a deck. But if they had included street level retail and a green top floor(roof) then they would have Heat Credits of 2,000 spaces. They could then turn around a sell the credits at market value to those with parking lots. This would not only work for a downtown area but all areas of a city. If a shopping center did not want to pay the tax they could build a deck. Then part of their old parking lot would be available for further development.

Money from they tax could go to transit.

My point is, if you have the things downtown Chicago has, you might be willing to pay quite a bit to park downtown. Come on, we all saw Ferris Bueller's Day Off. We don't have much yet, though, and need to avoid as many of the disincentives to coming downtown as we can. The same is true of the excellent job of policing the area and avoiding panhandling there that LRPD has done with a mini-station there - that was a good way of removing a clear reason some would avoid the area.

That's a lot of time and effort to come up with an unrealistic idea. I would like to see fewer Allright parking lots downtown, though. They're eyesores.

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My point is, if you have the things downtown Chicago has, you might be willing to pay quite a bit to park downtown. Come on, we all saw Ferris Bueller's Day Off. We don't have much yet, though, and need to avoid as many of the disincentives to coming downtown as we can. The same is true of the excellent job of policing the area and avoiding panhandling there that LRPD has done with a mini-station there - that was a good way of removing a clear reason some would avoid the area.

That's a lot of time and effort to come up with an unrealistic idea. I would like to see fewer Allright parking lots downtown, though. They're eyesores.

I don't think is is unrealistic. It is based on the system of carbon credits. It cost the city nothing and the public gets the benifits.

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I don't think is is unrealistic. It is based on the system of carbon credits. It cost the city nothing and the public gets the benifits.

Here's the part that's unrealistic:

Put a tax of $150 on each parking space of commercial use.

Downtown? When we're desperately trying to rebuild it. Are you mad?

You could tax every NEW parking space but that would be a small tax as there aren't really places to build many new parking lots these days (save the late Little Rock Inn). Taxing existing spaces is unfair. You want Doe's or Vino's to pay a bunch of money just to have those spaces?

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Here's the part that's unrealistic:

Downtown? When we're desperately trying to rebuild it. Are you mad?

You could tax every NEW parking space but that would be a small tax as there aren't really places to build many new parking lots these days (save the late Little Rock Inn). Taxing existing spaces is unfair. You want Doe's or Vino's to pay a bunch of money just to have those spaces?

Maybe you should read before you question the sanity of a person. I never restricted this to downtown:"This would not only work for a downtown area but all areas of a city." Those decks now in place would not be taxed and could take advantage by making their tops green. Think how nice it would be for people in highrises to look down on something other than the concrete top floors of parking decks. In order to protect small business owners you could exempt a certain number of spaces. This would encourage development to be more people friendly. Just think how much land would have been put to better use it the Rave had a parking deck built above it. This happens in other places. Why is taxing existing spaces unfair? They contribute to the heat build up problem. Cities add new taxes all the time. This tax can be avoided and it provides a way to produce money to avoid the tax.

A few post back you wanted to use a TIF to fund a free deck. But above you state "there aren't really places to build" so what do you do? You don't want to tax Doe's or Vino's but its ok to take money away from the school district. Anyway I think we have gone way off topic. The parking problem will be taken care of one way or the other no matter what we think about the subject.

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Maybe you should read before you question the sanity of a person. I never restricted this to downtown:"This would not only work for a downtown area but all areas of a city." Those decks now in place would not be taxed and could take advantage by making their tops green. Think how nice it would be for people in highrises to look down on something other than the concrete top floors of parking decks. In order to protect small business owners you could exempt a certain number of spaces. This would encourage development to be more people friendly. Just think how much land would have been put to better use it the Rave had a parking deck built above it. This happens in other places. Why is taxing existing spaces unfair? They contribute to the heat build up problem. Cities add new taxes all the time. This tax can be avoided and it provides a way to produce money to avoid the tax.

A few post back you wanted to use a TIF to fund a free deck. But above you state "there aren't really places to build" so what do you do? You don't want to tax Doe's or Vino's but its ok to take money away from the school district. Anyway I think we have gone way off topic. The parking problem will be taken care of one way or the other no matter what we think about the subject.

You seriously don't think that charging $150 for every commercial parking space in the city would be bad?

Forget the mom and pop restaurants, forget nightclubs like Disco and the Electric Cowboy, and certainly forget about big box retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot, and Best Buy. They would kindly locate themselves just outside of city boundaries leaving a lot of empty spaces behind, which would improve nothing.

This reminds me of the silly idea of the payroll tax, an attempt to strike back at commuters by taxing paychecks based on where they're issued. That would allow LR to collect a lot more revenue than other taxes because most people in Central AR work here. However, ultimately that would just be a major incentive to locate elsewhere - there would be a giant office park in Bryant and NLR's downtown would flourish.

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You seriously don't think that charging $150 for every commercial parking space in the city would be bad?

Forget the mom and pop restaurants, forget nightclubs like Disco and the Electric Cowboy, and certainly forget about big box retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot, and Best Buy. They would kindly locate themselves just outside of city boundaries leaving a lot of empty spaces behind, which would improve nothing.

This reminds me of the silly idea of the payroll tax, an attempt to strike back at commuters by taxing paychecks based on where they're issued. That would allow LR to collect a lot more revenue than other taxes because most people in Central AR work here. However, ultimately that would just be a major incentive to locate elsewhere - there would be a giant office park in Bryant and NLR's downtown would flourish.

Wasn't the payroll tax intended to tax commuters to held pay for city services? I don't see anyone running a company moving the company out of the city to avoid the tax. Most business owners don't care about taxes on their empolyees if the company doesn't have to pay them.

The big box retailers would not have to move they could build a deck and not pay a tax. They could also sell of their credits to pay for the deck. They could sell excess parking lot area no longer needed. As for locating outside the city it would cost them more. Does the city not control zoning just outside its boundaries. How much would it cost to connect to city services if they did build? They would no longer be under city fire and police protection.

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Wasn't the payroll tax intended to tax commuters to held pay for city services? I don't see anyone running a company moving the company out of the city to avoid the tax. Most business owners don't care about taxes on their empolyees if the company doesn't have to pay them.

The big box retailers would not have to move they could build a deck and not pay a tax. They could also sell of their credits to pay for the deck. They could sell excess parking lot area no longer needed. As for locating outside the city it would cost them more. Does the city not control zoning just outside its boundaries. How much would it cost to connect to city services if they did build? They would no longer be under city fire and police protection.

I still think all of that is irrational. Every store in LR can't have a parking deck, density doesn't mandate. Companies may not relocate because of extra taxes but new companies looking to relocate will avoid them, that's for sure. Over a decade or two the result is the same, an exodus of jobs.

Payroll taxes don't impact employers because they don't have to pay them? That's insane, it forces them to pay that much more to have the same take home pay. Wonder why Texas and Tennessee are so good at getting corporate relocations? Part of it is because they have no state income tax and it makes employees' dollars go further.

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I still think all of that is irrational. Every store in LR can't have a parking deck, density doesn't mandate. Companies may not relocate because of extra taxes but new companies looking to relocate will avoid them, that's for sure. Over a decade or two the result is the same, an exodus of jobs.

Payroll taxes don't impact employers because they don't have to pay them? That's insane, it forces them to pay that much more to have the same take home pay. Wonder why Texas and Tennessee are so good at getting corporate relocations? Part of it is because they have no state income tax and it makes employees' dollars go further.

Your statement that "it forces them to pay that much more to have the same take home pay" does not hold water. If this was true then Arkansas would have higher wages than Tenn and Texas.

Why can Wal-mart build a parking deck in Salt Lake City? Why can Target build parking decks? Why can Sam's and Wal-mart build above their parking lots? Not every store has to build one. It would be up to them. Why can LR not control what it is built in the city when other cities do?

As for the tax the employee would be the one to choose if they pay the tax. Its up to them to pick where they live. I do not believe that city empolyees should live outside the city they work. I read the other day that Ford does not allow empolyees to park other make of cars on their parking lots. If you work for someone you should support them.

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. I do not believe that city empolyees should live outside the city they work. I read the other day that Ford does not allow empolyees to park other make of cars on their parking lots. If you work for someone you should support them.

I think that's a different animal completely. I can assure you if I worked at an auto plant in Detroit, I wouldn't live there. I grew up living in Little Rock, going to school there, and my family worked there. Still, in an integrated community people will live in NLR. Should a nurse working at Conway Regional married to a businessman working downtown not compromise and live in Maumelle? Why not? This is the real world and idealism only goes so far.

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I think that's a different animal completely. I can assure you if I worked at an auto plant in Detroit, I wouldn't live there. I grew up living in Little Rock, going to school there, and my family worked there. Still, in an integrated community people will live in NLR. Should a nurse working at Conway Regional married to a businessman working downtown not compromise and live in Maumelle? Why not? This is the real world and idealism only goes so far.

They could live any where they want but also pay taxes to they city they work in. They pay taxes to the city they live in. Why not support the city they work in? I don't know if there are any auto plants left in Detroit for you to work in. Have you ever lived in Detroit? If not how can you say you wouldn't live there. Why wouldn't you live there? At one time I did work in Detroit and I also lived there.

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They could live any where they want but also pay taxes to they city they work in. They pay taxes to the city they live in. Why not support the city they work in? I don't know if there are any auto plants left in Detroit for you to work in. Have you ever lived in Detroit? If not how can you say you wouldn't live there. Why wouldn't you live there? At one time I did work in Detroit and I also lived there.

When it's bad enough that a major city lacks a movie theater, I won't live there. The same is true of Newark and I wouldn't live there, either. Neither is relevant when we're talking about Little Rock, where I did and would live. I'm just saying for many people it's impractical. It's absurd to support penalizing people for working in one city and living in another. It's an impossibility in lots of cities, though not in Arkansas. Most of the people living in Florida's affluent beach communities can't afford to live there, nor can those in the Park Cities here in Dallas County.

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