Fayetteville, Arkansas

[zman9810]

Here's an early rendering of a possible parking garage and skybridge across College Ave. But still no word on whether St Paul's Episcopal Church will work with the city.

http://www.nwanews.com/nwat/News/68387/

That's a very interesting rendering although I would like to see what other ideas they came up with. The idea of greenery on trellises sounds good but I wonder how well it would actually work- would the plants be green year round? The idea of murals might help overcome any drawbacks with that, though. I really like the the storefronts on the first level facing College and the skywalk connecting to the courthouse. I don't think visiblity for the church will be a problem- because of the elevation difference if you don't know the church is there now it is easy to miss from College. Maybe there is a chance that the church name could somehow be incorporated into the name of the parking deck.

It's easy for me as an anonymous website poster to be critical as opposed to a reporter doing their job but I hope this is refered to as a parking deck or facility instead of a garage. The word garage brings up visions of dark, dirty, stinky places that hopefully this won't be.

[zman9810]

It's halftime of the USA vs. Spain in the Oympics Gold Medal basketball game so I found an article with a more info about Fayette Junction. Seems it is a large 620 acre neighborhood with quite a history as floatman posted earlier. There will be public meetings held starting Sept. 4 at the Staybridge Suites.

Morning News article

Oh yeah- the USA is ahead 69-61 at the half- great game so far.

[butttrumpet]

That's a very interesting rendering although I would like to see what other ideas they came up with. The idea of greenery on trellises sounds good but I wonder how well it would actually work- would the plants be green year round? The idea of murals might help overcome any drawbacks with that, though. I really like the the storefronts on the first level facing College and the skywalk connecting to the courthouse. I don't think visiblity for the church will be a problem- because of the elevation difference if you don't know the church is there now it is easy to miss from College. Maybe there is a chance that the church name could somehow be incorporated into the name of the parking deck.

It's easy for me as an anonymous website poster to be critical as opposed to a reporter doing their job but I hope this is refered to as a parking deck or facility instead of a garage. The word garage brings up visions of dark, dirty, stinky places that hopefully this won't be.

Skybridges are gross. It could be done with some good architecture, and plant sound like a good idea.

I often think about the proposed flyover at College an Expressway as something the city could focus some art or good architecture on and make it into something nice rather than something we all have to just live with.

[thewizard16]

Skybridges are gross. It could be done with some good architecture, and plant sound like a good idea.

I often think about the proposed flyover at College an Expressway as something the city could focus some art or good architecture on and make it into something nice rather than something we all have to just live with.

I disagree. Skybridges can be done relatively attractively, and do add a distinctly urban feel to a city area.

[butttrumpet]

I disagree. Skybridges can be done relatively attractively, and do add a distinctly urban feel to a city area.

They detract from street pedestrian activity.

Edited August 25, 2008 by butttrumpet

[hogwash]

They also get people safely from one side of the street to the other. They serve a valid and needed function.

[thewizard16]

They detract from street pedestrian activity.

Across College Avenue, that's a good thing. If we were talking about Dickson, or a two lane city street, I'd agree that street level pedestrian activity is a good thing. College Avenue, absolutely not.

[Mith242]

Yeah I got to agree with everyone else on this. College Ave isn't set up for pedestrian traffic at all.

[butttrumpet]

College Avenue is undergoing massive improvements right now, partially for the purpose of creating a better pedestrian environment.

[Stormcrow]

They detract from street pedestrian activity.

As do busy 4 lane thoroughfares that are difficult or downright dangerous to cross.

[butttrumpet]

As do busy 4 lane thoroughfares that are difficult or downright dangerous to cross.

So no pedestrian can cross a street with more than 2 lanes? This must only apply to Arkansas.

A more urban alternative to a skybridge would be street level improvements at the intersection which make it easier for pedestrians to cross the street. This could mean lighted, brick crosswalks, a pedestrian median, or even a pedestrian stoplight. At least with this option, the crossing can be used by others not necessarily only going to do business at the courthouse. Eastern downtown residential is connected to Dickson this way. Plus, skybridges are generally ugly. I'm confident Wash. Co. isn't going to spend the money to make this one some kind of architectural wonder.

[hogwash]

You do realize there are some 25,000 cars that drive along that street everyday? College isn't like a 4-lane in any other downtown. You aren't going to go a block over and use whatever street to get 10 blocks down the way very easily. That's the problem with this whole idea of making N. College into some kind of pedestrian-friendly urban area. College is a major arterial, and drawing pretty pictures about how you want it to look one day won't change the fact that a lot of people have to use that street. I'm not saying you don't provide sidewalks and encourage some level of pedestrian street activity, but get real. This skybridge is proposed in conjuction with a parking structure for a building on the other side of the street. That is a lot of pedestrian traffic, and its not safe. I have to cross a busy 4-lane everyday on my way to work. I've almost been hit several times by people disregarding my walk light.

Even if you put in pedestrian islands and such. Where is that right-of-way going to come from? The road in that area is 4-lanes, not 4+ something. It's tight and constricted.

[butttrumpet]

College isn't like a 4-lane in any other downtown.

wow.

[Mith242]

So no pedestrian can cross a street with more than 2 lanes? This must only apply to Arkansas.

A more urban alternative to a skybridge would be street level improvements at the intersection which make it easier for pedestrians to cross the street. This could mean lighted, brick crosswalks, a pedestrian median, or even a pedestrian stoplight. At least with this option, the crossing can be used by others not necessarily only going to do business at the courthouse. Eastern downtown residential is connected to Dickson this way. Plus, skybridges are generally ugly. I'm confident Wash. Co. isn't going to spend the money to make this one some kind of architectural wonder.

Even with improvements that have been talked about they will make College Ave more aesthetically pleasing and such but I don't think they're planning on doing enough in the near future to make it an easier street to cross. Bigger changes are going to have to happen before that comes about and I think those are going to be farther into the future before they get addressed. Guess I just don't see a skybridge being that big of a problem.

[Stormcrow]

So no pedestrian can cross a street with more than 2 lanes? This must only apply to Arkansas.

A more urban alternative to a skybridge would be street level improvements at the intersection which make it easier for pedestrians to cross the street. This could mean lighted, brick crosswalks, a pedestrian median, or even a pedestrian stoplight. At least with this option, the crossing can be used by others not necessarily only going to do business at the courthouse. Eastern downtown residential is connected to Dickson this way. Plus, skybridges are generally ugly. I'm confident Wash. Co. isn't going to spend the money to make this one some kind of architectural wonder.

Oh please. Of course people can cross College. But I for one wouldn't want to if I don't have to. I'll agree I've yet to see one of these that I really found architecturally appealing but in this case I think could be very beneficial. I'm rather confident that Wash. Co. will spend enough to make it at least modestly appealing.

[butttrumpet]

I just don't like the mindset that College Ave is some impenetrable wall separating eastern town, from Dickson/The Square.

I personally see what the city is doing there as having a traffic-calming effect, not as extreme, but simular to what happened when they rebuilt Dickson. I for one believe that this is the direction the city is trying to proceed on College. So, pedestrian improvements linking either side in this area make more sense in the future than they did in the past.

Refer to the Dover Kohl vision of College Avenue, which is a boulevard at some points, crossable, with retail space up to the sidewalks. Extremely pedestrian friendly.

The point is, if a lot of money is going to be spent to create a "crossing" of some sort in the near future, it would be nice if that crossing looked forward to what College Avenue has been zoned and planned to someday be. It would also be nice if that crossing was something that the rest of the pedestrian traffic could use, rather than removing a certain segment of pedestrian traffic from the streetscape the city claims its trying to create.

I see a skybridge as short-sighted, and incompatible with the longer-term vision the city has for College Avenue.

Plus, I personally think they're ugly.

[cowbreath]

Has anyone ever seen a redone 4-lane arterial highway redone to be more pedestrian friendly? I have a hard time imagining it so I was wondering if there was some other precedent. The road itself is full of in-and-out businesses based on car convenience not for pedestrians. In other words, it is basically the same kind of "strip" effect that you see in most metros. I don't think we could ever change the road to pedestrian-friendly without the nature of the human and business activity changing.

I hope we don't waste any money on baseless street improvements. I think skybridges are acceptable on an as-needed basis.

[Mith242]

I just don't like the mindset that College Ave is some impenetrable wall separating eastern town, from Dickson/The Square.

I personally see what the city is doing there as having a traffic-calming effect, not as extreme, but simular to what happened when they rebuilt Dickson. I for one believe that this is the direction the city is trying to proceed on College. So, pedestrian improvements linking either side in this area make more sense in the future than they did in the past.

Refer to the Dover Kohl vision of College Avenue, which is a boulevard at some points, crossable, with retail space up to the sidewalks. Extremely pedestrian friendly.

Yeah that's been talked about from the City Plan 2025. But I don't think it's been seriously considered since. All the improvements being talked about now are more aesthetics rather than a big undertaking to change the aspect of the street itself. I'm not saying it won't be done, but I think if it is ever decided to take College Ave that particular route it will be much closer to the year 2025 than the near future. I think it's a very interesting idea and I wouldn't mind seeing something like that happen. But I can just imagine the big outcry it will cause from some people. If people in Fayetteville are upset at a development like Ruskin Heights because it's not the typical suburban style cookie cutter neighborhood, then some people are going to really freak out when you try to tell them what could be planned for College Ave. A lot of people just seem to fear change, especially when it's a big change to something they're completely unfamiliar with. Either way I'm really curious to see what happens. For that matter I'm curious to see what small changes they have planned for the near future for College Ave.

[Mith242]

Has anyone ever seen a redone 4-lane arterial highway redone to be more pedestrian friendly? I have a hard time imagining it so I was wondering if there was some other precedent. The road itself is full of in-and-out businesses based on car convenience not for pedestrians. In other words, it is basically the same kind of "strip" effect that you see in most metros. I don't think we could ever change the road to pedestrian-friendly without the nature of the human and business activity changing.

I hope we don't waste any money on baseless street improvements. I think skybridges are acceptable on an as-needed basis.

The Dover Kohl plan was rather interesting. Certainly something quite a bit different from anything seen around here. For that matter I don't think I can say I've seen anything quite like it anywhere else for that matter. You'd basically have a 2-3 lanes center road with a speed limit similar to what we probably have now. But then you'd also have a side lane(or I guess like a one way street) on both sides separated by a median on both sides. Those outer lanes would have a slower speed. I believe at every stoplight or intersection you would basically have the ability to get to the outer lane from the center. But if you were just passing through you could stick to the center lane and not be slowed down quite so much. Interesting idea but I'm not sure what people would think about trying to do something like that. Especially since it's quite a bit different than anything else around here. I get the impression it would be too 'radical' for a lot of people. Then there's also the costs involved. I get the impression doing something like that won't be cheap. But it would make it more pedestrian friendly.

[jderose1]

I do agree with trumpet - skybridges can look tacky, either chintzy or too gaudy and pretentious. If done well, it could look ok. There needs to be an improved street level crossing at Dickson. I think there should be a series of improved crossings to include Maple and Lafayette too. Considering the amount of residential area (historic district, mount sequoyah) that is on the other side of College, its makes sense. Plus, how would the skybridge accomodate bikers, people walking dogs, or people who didn't want to mess with climbing stairs/riding elevator just to get across the street? And couldn't the speed be reduced on a portion of College to help with safety anyway?

[Mith242]

I do agree with trumpet - skybridges can look tacky, either chintzy or too gaudy and pretentious. If done well, it could look ok. There needs to be an improved street level crossing at Dickson. I think there should be a series of improved crossings to include Maple and Lafayette too. Considering the amount of residential area (historic district, mount sequoyah) that is on the other side of College, its makes sense. Plus, how would the skybridge accomodate bikers, people walking dogs, or people who didn't want to mess with climbing stairs/riding elevator just to get across the street? And couldn't the speed be reduced on a portion of College to help with safety anyway?

Yeah in this case the skybridge is basically just for those people who are having to park in the parking deck and then cross over. I'm sure people could walk up and use it to get across the street but that's not the purpose of it being put there. It would be great to see some nice pedestrian bridges like the ones you see over in Europe. But I'm sure that's quite a bit of money and I don't see anyone wanting to foot the bill for something like that.

[hogwash]

The Dover Kohl plan was rather interesting. Certainly something quite a bit different from anything seen around here. For that matter I don't think I can say I've seen anything quite like it anywhere else for that matter. You'd basically have a 2-3 lanes center road with a speed limit similar to what we probably have now. But then you'd also have a side lane(or I guess like a one way street) on both sides separated by a median on both sides. Those outer lanes would have a slower speed. I believe at every stoplight or intersection you would basically have the ability to get to the outer lane from the center. But if you were just passing through you could stick to the center lane and not be slowed down quite so much. Interesting idea but I'm not sure what people would think about trying to do something like that. Especially since it's quite a bit different than anything else around here. I get the impression it would be too 'radical' for a lot of people. Then there's also the costs involved. I get the impression doing something like that won't be cheap. But it would make it more pedestrian friendly.

There was talk of adopting a similar street cross section that would permit that design type with the Midtown development in Bryant. It's a great idea, but you almost need to lay that out ahead rather than retrofitting. It takes so much space that its hard to accomodate in your standard arterial right-of-way.

[hogwash]

Has anyone ever seen a redone 4-lane arterial highway redone to be more pedestrian friendly? I have a hard time imagining it so I was wondering if there was some other precedent. The road itself is full of in-and-out businesses based on car convenience not for pedestrians. In other words, it is basically the same kind of "strip" effect that you see in most metros. I don't think we could ever change the road to pedestrian-friendly without the nature of the human and business activity changing.

I hope we don't waste any money on baseless street improvements. I think skybridges are acceptable on an as-needed basis.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the issue.

It may just be me but I don't see City Plan 2025 being anymore successful than the city's previous plans. I may be wrong but everything that is happening on the north end of town just doesn't seem be supportive of the goals of the plan. It seems like the end of this initiative will be an exercise in image-making rather than fundamentally adressing the form and function of development.

I don't mean to be so negative there are so many wonderful things going on in Fayetteville.

Edited August 27, 2008 by hogwash

[butttrumpet]

The improvements taking place on this very section of College are going to make a lot more sense of the streetscape there. Curb cuts will be reduced and realigned. This will make traffic more predictable on the street. The addition of curbing all along this stretch will make speeding less attractive, IMO that it currently is, switching driver mentality from that of "highway" to "city street". I believe that at some sections, trees are going to be put into the median, but I am not sure. If medians are added even just for short distances, the traffic flow will adjust slower, I believe. Finally, the addition of a coherent sidewalk throughout this section on both sides, with trees and lighting will encourage more pedestrian activity. I believe the plan also calls for decorative, textured concrete or brick crosswalks at stoplighted intersections, like the crosswalks on Dickson. In four months or so when this is all done, hopefully we can revisit whether or not a sky bridge is the best option.

I agree a skybridge is the best option for getting people from the garage to the courthouse, regardless. I just wish there was something more multifunctional and less intrusive considered. I also think its an opportunity to bridge some of that distance between east and west in a way so I hope other options are given a closer look. Heck, even a multiuse pedestrian bridge that could be used by cyclists and all others would be better than a sterile, enclosed, air conditioned tube with only two points of access. If the money's being spent, I'd like to see it spent in a way that can benefit the most of us.

[Mith242]

There was talk of adopting a similar street cross section that would permit that design type with the Midtown development in Bryant. It's a great idea, but you almost need to lay that out ahead rather than retrofitting. It takes so much space that its hard to accomodate in your standard arterial right-of-way.

True, you'd only be able to put that type of road in certain areas of College Ave. You wouldn't be able to do it closer to downtown.