Fayetteville, Arkansas

[Mith242]

I don't think high rise condos would be too popular, either. Look at how our expensive condo projects have fared--very poorly!

Yeah unfortunately even though our metro is still growing we still seem to have a mindset of a suburban area. Seems like we're having problems getting over the hump for getting a bit more of an urban aspect going. It will take some time but we'll get there eventually.

[marmot]

Yeah unfortunately even though our metro is still growing we still seem to have a mindset of a suburban area. Seems like we're having problems getting over the hump for getting a bit more of an urban aspect going. It will take some time but we'll get there eventually.

Well, that "mindset" is enforced by the outrageous prices on these condos around here. Why would you pay $300k for roughly 1000 sq ft worth of condo when you could get a wonderful 3000 sq ft neighborhood home for such a price.

These condo developers need to get over themselves.

[Mith242]

Well, that "mindset" is enforced by the outrageous prices on these condos around here. Why would you pay $300k for roughly 1000 sq ft worth of condo when you could get a wonderful 3000 sq ft neighborhood home for such a price.

These condo developers need to get over themselves.

I won't say the condo prices aren't overpriced, but I also don't think you can blame it all on developers either. During the big building boom, not just here in the US but especially in China as well, the price of building materials such as steel really shot up. I still think the Legacy Bldg was originally going to be a nicer building. But I think when building costs soared Barber went cheap on it. I'm not sure there's going to be a whole lot we can do about it for now either. Even when the economy gets better China is still a huge emerging market that's going to keep a lot of prices up. Guess you can't really blame people for buying homes that are cheaper. But unfortunately it also means more sprawl in the near future, as well as re-emphasizing our suburban mind set.

[zman9810]

I won't say the condo prices aren't overpriced, but I also don't think you can blame it all on developers either. During the big building boom, not just here in the US but especially in China as well, the price of building materials such as steel really shot up. I still think the Legacy Bldg was originally going to be a nicer building. But I think when building costs soared Barber went cheap on it. I'm not sure there's going to be a whole lot we can do about it for now either. Even when the economy gets better China is still a huge emerging market that's going to keep a lot of prices up. Guess you can't really blame people for buying homes that are cheaper. But unfortunately it also means more sprawl in the near future, as well as re-emphasizing our suburban mind set.

I think one reason the condos in the Dickson Street area are so high is the location although you are certainly right about steel prices increasing the cost of construction. The wood frame units like the Locust Street and Campbell buildings are also very high though. There are condos away from the downtown area that are much cheaper- even under $100 sq ft. Until there is more to choose from downtown the developers can afford to keep the prices high.

If the city would follow the City Plan 2025 more closely there would be more residential space downtown and some lower priced units. By encouraging infill and redevelopment and discouraging greenfield development on the edges of town more projects would come forward I think. Using variable impact fees and zoning changes and easing the height restrictions would encourage the type of development that is called for in City Plan 2025. It would also lead to the type of density that would help public transportation thrive and ease the need build new roads and extend basic services further out.

[zman9810]

I don't have a dog in this hunt as far as property in this area, so what I think doesn't mean a thing.

That being said... the Hill place apts. is really a burden on the area around it, noise, traffic, late night parties etc.. It is possible that the council members that voted to not rezone were looking at that.

If the property were to become a high rise condo complex with lower floor mixed use it probably would have gone the other way.

Hill place is new and already leaving a bad taste in some peoples' mouth. It will be hard to sell student complexes to the council.

I'm glad you brought up Hill Place- these turned out very nice- much nicer than the vacant lot with some old abandoned trailers on it that was there. Yes, there is more activity there now- much more than when it was empty- that is to be expected. If one lives in a metro area and has a vacant lot next to them they should expect it to be developed someday- that is the normal growth that any city needs to survive and prosper.

It's a amazing to me the bad rap that the university students get in Fayetteville. People seem to forget that Fayetteville is the town it is because of the university and the university exists because of the students. It's like some residents want the college atmosphere without having the college. At almost 20,000 strong the students make up over a quarter of Fayetteville's population and they have to live somewhere.

The negative sterotype of students that has been put forward is uncalled for. The majority of students are hard working, decent young adults that are more interested in making their grades and a better life for themselves than living the party life. Sure, there are some who don't fit that description but to put the other label on them all is unfair. People don't realize that there are non-students who come to Fayetteville in order to live the party life and try to use the students for their own ends those are who should be looked at more closely. I can't imagine any City Council member and city official voting against an issue because it involves university students- if so they shouldn't be in office.

[marmot]

I'm glad you brought up Hill Place- these turned out very nice- much nicer than the vacant lot with some old abandoned trailers on it that was there. Yes, there is more activity there now- much more than when it was empty- that is to be expected. If one lives in a metro area and has a vacant lot next to them they should expect it to be developed someday- that is the normal growth that any city needs to survive and prosper.

It's a amazing to me the bad rap that the university students get in Fayetteville. People seem to forget that Fayetteville is the town it is because of the university and the university exists because of the students. It's like some residents want the college atmosphere without having the college. At almost 20,000 strong the students make up over a quarter of Fayetteville's population and they have to live somewhere.

The negative sterotype of students that has been put forward is uncalled for. The majority of students are hard working, decent young adults that are more interested in making their grades and a better life for themselves than living the party life. Sure, there are some who don't fit that description but to put the other label on them all is unfair. People don't realize that there are non-students who come to Fayetteville in order to live the party life and try to use the students for their own ends those are who should be looked at more closely. I can't imagine any City Council member and city official voting against an issue because it involves university students- if so they shouldn't be in office.

Excellent zman.

I'll never understand this hypocrisy either.

[Mith242]

I'm glad you brought up Hill Place- these turned out very nice- much nicer than the vacant lot with some old abandoned trailers on it that was there. Yes, there is more activity there now- much more than when it was empty- that is to be expected. If one lives in a metro area and has a vacant lot next to them they should expect it to be developed someday- that is the normal growth that any city needs to survive and prosper.

It's a amazing to me the bad rap that the university students get in Fayetteville. People seem to forget that Fayetteville is the town it is because of the university and the university exists because of the students. It's like some residents want the college atmosphere without having the college. At almost 20,000 strong the students make up over a quarter of Fayetteville's population and they have to live somewhere.

The negative stereotype of students that has been put forward is uncalled for. The majority of students are hard working, decent young adults that are more interested in making their grades and a better life for themselves than living the party life. Sure, there are some who don't fit that description but to put the other label on them all is unfair. People don't realize that there are non-students who come to Fayetteville in order to live the party life and try to use the students for their own ends those are who should be looked at more closely. I can't imagine any City Council member and city official voting against an issue because it involves university students- if so they shouldn't be in office.

Well said. I have to wonder if this was any other type of development rather than student apartments would this still be an issue? I know the veterans would still like to have the property although they waited too long to attempt to buy it. But I'm just wondering what would they complain about if this development was something else. It just seems sad that they're basing their argument on a stereotype.

[zman9810]

The Fayetteville City Council is preparing to get directly involved in the quarrying dispute that has occupied the Washington County Quorum Court for quite some time. There are two rock quarry and red dirt mining facilities outside the western edge of Fayetteville's city limits that have been there many years and provided a local source for those two basic building materials. Although these aren't the only sources for rock and red dirt they are already established and close by. In a classic case of NIMBYism, the neighbors of the area are fighting plans to create a long term source of rock and red dirt by expanding the footprint of the quarries onto adjacent land. The neighbors have been going through the Quorum Court with limited success so now they have pressured the City Council to join with them.

The quarries are inplace and have been for many years. They provide a local source for vital building materials that fuel the economic development that the area depends on. It has been established by testing that the blasts that the neighbors complain about have little effect on the area- Quroum Court members stood by while a blast was set off and noticed little disturbance from it. Yes, it is neccesary to have large dump trucks hauling material out of the area. That will be the case no matter where the operations are and such trucks have been all over NWA during the recent high growth years. The effects of these trucks can be minimized by covering the loads and if needed an improved road to the sites. Dust affects can be minimized also very easily with a water truck.

The neighbors' goal seems to be to shut the quarries down instead of working with them to solve any problems that need solving. While it is the place of the City Council and Quorum Court to regulate the quarries it is not their place to put uncalled for burdens on the companies that will cause them to cease operations. Letting a relatively few neighbors loud complaints cause higher construction costs and the need for new quarry sites on greenfield areas is a mistake.

One of the companies wanting to expand their mining operations is appealing the Quorum Court's denial to Circuit Court. It seems the company thinks it has done everything needed under the zoning regulations to have the expansion approved. If so, then the denial is unlawful and the appeal will succeed. They evidently think that the public opposition alone is not a legal reason to deny their plans and if other court cases like this are any indication, they are right.

The political heat from the quarry debates has evidently caused some Quorum Court members to want to abdicate their responsibilty to their constituents. One Justice of the Peace has brought forward an ordinance to remove the court from the appeals process- the non-elected zoning board would have final say at the county government level on planning and development issues. All public comment would be before the private citizens on these boards and our elected representatives would not have to take a stand either way. One of the cases earlier in the year where the zoning board approved a plan which was denied at the court level would not have been denied with the JP's stands on the issue recorded in the public record. That is not how it should be- I want to know my representative's stand on issues that affect me. If the heat is too hot in the kitchen then get out of the kitchen- don't run for elected office if you don't want to take a stand on and vote on public issues.

Edited October 2, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

No big surprise that the ABC denied allowing Walmart to sell beer at it's Fayetteville locations. As usual Sue Madison and Jeff Tabor complained with the move. Now Walmart can appeal the decision. I guess you can't take anything for granted. But it's hard to imagine Walmart getting denied in the long run. It sells beer in many of it's stores across the state. Don't see how Tabor or Madison can show that allowing it in Fayetteville will be any different in all the other Arkansas communities where it's already happening. Don't think I ever got around to mentioning this but Target in Fayetteville has also applied. Of course there will be the usual complaints and they will be initially denied. Then they'll also appeal and I would have to think it would go the same route that Walmart's decision goes. Assuming those bids get eventually approved I'd also have to think Harp's will eventually apply as well in it's four locations in Fayetteville. While many people at the Harps Home Office are members of First Baptist in Springdale and not huge fans of alcohol sales. They do sell beer in it's Ft Smith locations and can't imagine they'd let Walmart and Target sell and not join in as well.

[Mith242]

The owner of the land next to the Natl Cemetery is now suing the city for not rezoning the land. Overall cases like this don't tend to have any chance. But with the whole weird situation of one of the Council members 'stepping out' so that a tie vote wouldn't have to go to the mayor for a tiebreaker, who knows. It may have some sort of chance with the voting irregularities. We'll have to see where all of this ends up.

[zman9810]

The owner of the land next to the Natl Cemetery is now suing the city for not rezoning the land. Overall cases like this don't tend to have any chance. But with the whole weird situation of one of the Council members 'stepping out' so that a tie vote wouldn't have to go to the mayor for a tiebreaker, who knows. It may have some sort of chance with the voting irregularities. We'll have to see where all of this ends up.

The landowner may have a case- the city attorney himself said that if the "council's action was arbitrary, capricious or unreasonable" the court could step in. Considering that the city's professional staff approved the downzoning and the Planning Commission approved it 6-1 it certainly seems unreasonable for the council to deny it. The denial was unsupported (arbitrary) by the facts - the new zoning was not incompatible with that area. There is already multi-family just a couple of blocks away and the site is in fact a buffer area between the commercial and industrial uses to the north and east and the cemetery to the south and west. There are two street outlets to major thoroughfares from the site so the traffic reason is also unsupported. The council acted without adequate motive and seemingly on a whim in denying the rezoning.

Of course the city attorney is going to say it was legal- every lawyer is going to say their client is in the right- that's their job.

[mzweig]

The landowner may have a case- the city attorney himself said that if the "council's action was arbitrary, capricious or unreasonable" the court could step in. Considering that the city's professional staff approved the downzoning and the Planning Commission approved it 6-1 it certainly seems unreasonable for the council to deny it. The denial was unsupported (arbitrary) by the facts - the new zoning was not incompatible with that area. There is already multi-family just a couple of blocks away and the site is in fact a buffer area between the commercial and industrial uses to the north and east and the cemetery to the south and west. There are two street outlets to major thoroughfares from the site so the traffic reason is also unsupported. The council acted without adequate motive and seemingly on a whim in denying the rezoning.

Of course the city attorney is going to say it was legal- every lawyer is going to say their client is in the right- that's their job.

It seems to me the City Council should, in general, respect the recommendations of the Planning Dept. and the Planning Commission. I think they may meddle a little too much sometimes, bowing to those who complain the loudest. That said, I don't know we need another large apartment complex in this town--it seems like so many are coming on line. But it ought to be up to the developers to take that risk. Those are my thoughts, at least!

Mark

[zman9810]

It seems to me the City Council should, in general, respect the recommendations of the Planning Dept. and the Planning Commission. I think they may meddle a little too much sometimes, bowing to those who complain the loudest. That said, I don't know we need another large apartment complex in this town--it seems like so many are coming on line. But it ought to be up to the developers to take that risk. Those are my thoughts, at least!

Mark

I can't see them building a complex at this time- like you say there are many new apartments and lots of vacancies right now. It might be years before they would actually build but without the rezoning they can't buy the land or even make plans.

Your point about not needing the complex may have been a factor in the rezoning denial- if some council members took that into consideration it would be another reason that the denial was unlawful. It falls under the same reasoning as the council shouldn't have voted as to who they wanted to have the land- the veterans groups (who don't have the money to buy it) or the developer.

[mzweig]

I can't see them building a complex at this time- like you say there are many new apartments and lots of vacancies right now. It might be years before they would actually build but without the rezoning they can't buy the land or even make plans.

Your point about not needing the complex may have been a factor in the rezoning denial- if some council members took that into consideration it would be another reason that the denial was unlawful. It falls under the same reasoning as the council shouldn't have voted as to who they wanted to have the land- the veterans groups (who don't have the money to buy it) or the developer.

Yep--you are absolutely right about that. Not within their purview.

M

[Mith242]

There was a lot of publicity about Macadoodles opening a Springdale location. Could be more debate coming soon, but this time for Fayetteville. There's a liquor license that's available and Macadoodles along with 8 others are vying for it. But I noticed amongst all the locations listed around Washington County there was a Joyce St address listed for a possible Macadoodles. Get ready for Sue Madison to chime in if that happens. Although she may chime in on the matter no matter who ends up getting the license. No idea who will end up the license. Not really sure how they decide something like this when you have 9 different people going for this one license.

[Mith242]

Not too long ago the name 'Uptown' was becoming more commonly used to refer to north Fayetteville. Now all the businesses in north Fayetteville are joining up to form the Uptown Fayetteville Association. Overall the Uptown region seems to pretty much cover most of north Fayetteville down to Fiesta Square.

[zman9810]

Here's a view of Underwood Plaza with Old Main in the background- if I can get it to post right.

Edited November 9, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

Nice picture. Now I'm trying to figure out where exactly you were to get that angle.

I was going to guess the library but I don't think you'd get that angle. Seems like you'd have to be somewhere closer to the Square maybe to get that angle. So maybe one of the taller buildings over on the Square?

[mzweig]

Here's a view of Underwood Plaza with Old Main in the background- if I can get it to post right.

We had a Fay Jones School of Architecture Dean's Circle dinner up there last Friday night in a top floor condo. Beautiful views. It's a really nice building.

Mark

[Snaple4]

So, I was talking to my father today and he said that the city hospital shut down last week and they fired all the employees. Anyone know if this is true or not. The place is here. I know the place is old so it wouldnt suprise me.

On a side note, does anyone know if this place is private, city, or state owned?

[Mith242]

So, I was talking to my father today and he said that the city hospital shut down last week and they fired all the employees. Anyone know if this is true or not. The place is here. I know the place is old so it wouldn't surprise me.

On a side note, does anyone know if this place is private, city, or state owned?

News to me. But I guess I always wondered about that place. To be honest just seemed like I never really heard anything about that place. I just kept wondering if it was going to stay open or for that matter what kind of place it was. But still you'd think if all that was true some media source would have picked up on it. I know it's not that big of a place but I can't imagine it closing and the media not even taking notice of it at all.

[aerotive]

It's a non-profit nursing home run by Washington Regional. Don't know whether it's been closed or not.

My grandfather lived there for a few years. Decent place but still a nursing home--depressing vibe all in all.

Edited November 11, 2009 by aerotive

[wmr]

It's a non-profit nursing home run by Washington Regional. Don't know whether it's been closed or not.

My grandfather lived there for a few years. Decent place but still a nursing home--depressing vibe all in all.

Its in a great location for some high quality lofts or apartments. Right between Dickson and Mill District, walking distance to the Square.

[Mith242]

Its in a great location for some high quality lofts or apartments. Right between Dickson and Mill District, walking distance to the Square.

During the Dover-Kohl City Plan 2025 meetings this was mentioned as well as Hillcrest Tower. Then it was also mentioned on here and got a few people riles up. This forum even got mentioned in someone's editorial in the newspaper. Both places do serve important functions. But I still have to agree that overall those particular spaces could be better served with other developments. Now there's not really any rush for anything at Hillcrest Tower. But if the city hospital really has closed then might as well discuss possible uses for that space. I certainly agree that could be a very great spot for a new development. Had all of this happened a few years ago there would probably be a lot of talk about a possible development. The current economy certainly doesn't help matters. But still that's a great location with a lot of potential. It's right there next to the library as well. A nice development there could really help getting things going for that area and the Mill District. Of course we'll have to see if the rumors are true. I also doubt any developer is going to jump in and immediately build something. But it would be great to hear about some possible ideas for that spot.

[aerotive]

During the Dover-Kohl City Plan 2025 meetings this was mentioned as well as Hillcrest Tower. Then it was also mentioned on here and got a few people riles up. This forum even got mentioned in someone's editorial in the newspaper. Both places do serve important functions. But I still have to agree that overall those particular spaces could be better served with other developments. Now there's not really any rush for anything at Hillcrest Tower. But if the city hospital really has closed then might as well discuss possible uses for that space. I certainly agree that could be a very great spot for a new development. Had all of this happened a few years ago there would probably be a lot of talk about a possible development. The current economy certainly doesn't help matters. But still that's a great location with a lot of potential. It's right there next to the library as well. A nice development there could really help getting things going for that area and the Mill District. Of course we'll have to see if the rumors are true. I also doubt any developer is going to jump in and immediately build something. But it would be great to hear about some possible ideas for that spot.

I called them earlier today and they were very much open. I'm curious about the status of the land and the building--they might be owned by the city and leased to WR, similar to how WR leased their old building from the county for $1/year. Or the city might've sold to WR with covenants requiring non-profit or medical use.

If neither of those cases are true I can see something more upscale and profit-oriented being built there if WR decides to close it. But if not, and the city provides/provided the property at no or low cost, it should stay non-profit and continue to provide a necessary community service.

Hillcrest is another beast entirely; it's decrepit, ugly, has a terrible rep, and is surely nearing the end of its useful life. I'd like to see new, modern, more humane public housing rebuilt on that spot.