Fayetteville, Arkansas

[zman9810]

Marsh's strategy seems to be to ask for much more than she knows she will get and then when negotiating give up those items she knew were unlikely. An item like the LEED certification was never going to happen but by adding it she could keep the residential requirement even though it is equally cumbersome. Think about it- if P&G wanted to add a 8 story building to their Fayetteville campus on Joyce Blvd. they would have to have residential space in it. At least that is they way I read it. If so, I think they may say no thanks, we will just move to Pinnacle and take all the jobs and tax revenue with us. This ordinance needs to be defeated when it comes up for the full Council vote and a more realistic approach to the problems it supposedly attempts to address made.

[comreguy]

Marsh's strategy seems to be to ask for much more than she knows she will get and then when negotiating give up those items she knew were unlikely. An item like the LEED certification was never going to happen but by adding it she could keep the residential requirement even though it is equally cumbersome. Think about it- if P&G wanted to add a 8 story building to their Fayetteville campus on Joyce Blvd. they would have to have residential space in it. At least that is they way I read it. If so, I think they may say no thanks, we will just move to Pinnacle and take all the jobs and tax revenue with us. This ordinance needs to be defeated when it comes up for the full Council vote and a more realistic approach to the problems it supposedly attempts to address made.

 

Very well said and you and I have both read Ms. Marsh's tactics in the same manner. I think this in in Chapter 1 of the book "Negotiating to get what you want" subtitle "Without giving up a darn thing you cared about".

[JamesE]

Marsh's strategy seems to be to ask for much more than she knows she will get and then when negotiating give up those items she knew were unlikely. An item like the LEED certification was never going to happen but by adding it she could keep the residential requirement even though it is equally cumbersome. Think about it- if P&G wanted to add a 8 story building to their Fayetteville campus on Joyce Blvd. they would have to have residential space in it. At least that is they way I read it. If so, I think they may say no thanks, we will just move to Pinnacle and take all the jobs and tax revenue with us. This ordinance needs to be defeated when it comes up for the full Council vote and a more realistic approach to the problems it supposedly attempts to address made.

 

Good point - I read a while back that Washington Regional couldn't have been build as-is had this ordinance had been in place back when it was built due to the residential requirement, and Washington Regional doesn't exactly loom over uptown.  With required setbacks and height limits, it won't be possible to squeeze enough squarefootage out of high value parcels to make them cost effective for development, which would tend to leave derelict but valuble real estate such as the former Mountain Inn site vacant for a long time yet to come.

[TRB]

She is bringing the Hipster Northwest thinking to Fayetteville. It will be rejected eventually. Even Adelia can't fathom it costing us another hotel on the square one day.

As for P&G, I'm shocked they haven't moved. I know they want some escrow money back from the city that was suppose to go for connecting Vantage Drive with the flyover. The head man down there lead the WAC board's charge for the new facility in Bentonville.

[JamesE]

She is bringing the Hipster Northwest thinking to Fayetteville. It will be rejected eventually. Even Adelia can't fathom it costing us another hotel on the square one day.

As for P&G, I'm shocked they haven't moved. I know they want some escrow money back from the city that was suppose to go for connecting Vantage Drive with the flyover. The head man down there lead the WAC board's charge for the new facility in Bentonville.

 

Even Portland OR isn't hip (or dumb) enough to limit buildings to less than 100' in downtown.

[TRB]

I've been around long enough to remember the likes of Zurcher, There's always one or two idealist on this council. A CivE family member of mine refuses to do work in Fayetteville and that's still based on his dealings with Planning back in the Anthes days, he and I still talk about one meeting where she hammered one developer's subdivision because the streets were too straight and and there should be more curves and such and the very next proposal was a subdivision with lots of curvy streets and she went on about roads needing to be straighter. We sat there in shear amusement and disgust.  Sometimes it almost bordered on the absurd, She and Clarke once tried to tell one developer exactly what tree species that they'd like to see instead of the ones he was putting in. It's no wonder that there seems to be no unified vision of construction at the U of A because she's right there controlling it all, it's how we end up with the albatross they attached to Vol Walker.

[zman9810]

The more I try to figure out what Marsh's ordinance means the more confusing it gets. I wonder if that isn't another part of her strategy- to enact a law that will cause so much legal wrangling that it in itself will discourage development. It approaches being deceitful if that is the case. If the ordinance throws up enough roadblocks at every phase of the planning process and even puts the fate of a project in jeopardy after it has been completed that would cause any investor in the city to reconsider. That is exactly what the LEED, setbacks as proposed and residential requirements would do. This ordinance seems more and more like a case of the small but vocal anti-growth segment of Fayetteville residents having an undue influence on how the City leaders govern. The City Council should look at how this ordinance will negatively affect all the citizens and not just the loudest. The ordinance should be defeated and a less biased effort made to address any concerns that led to it being proposed.

[TRB]

I recently found an apt complex rendering online that wouldn't meet Marsh's standards but one that would satisfy some of us wanting a more traditional design for some of these student oriented developments.  Here's one with Old Main elements, what do you think?

 

[zman9810]

That is agreeable although I have liked all of the Modus (that's my reference name) properties. Even looking north from Dickson at Sterling Frisco I think it fits what a dense downtown should look like. I guess that why I wasn't too concerned when the upgraded power lines went in across Dickson. A city of 75,000 in a metro of 500,000 isn't going to have a out in the country view. Thanks for that pic.

[TRB]

That is agreeable although I have liked all of the Modus (that's my reference name) properties. Even looking north from Dickson at Sterling Frisco I think it fits what a dense downtown should look like. I guess that why I wasn't too concerned when the upgraded power lines went in across Dickson. A city of 75,000 in a metro of 500,000 isn't going to have a out in the country view. Thanks for that pic.

 

I think it would be an excellent dorm design as well.

 

In the ideas thread, I mentioned the the U of A needing a new HYPR facility with an ice rink as part. Not to be partial to cold weather stuff. Here's Texas Tech's aquatics center for students:

Students can enjoy a slow ride down the lazy river, or take part in either a game of water volleyball or basketball with friends. For the kids, or just the kids at heart, a separate pool is home to a 15-foot slide and a diving board. In case hunger strikes, a poolside Sam’s Place offers fresh sandwiches, smoothies and refreshments.

More interested in relaxation? Then soak in the large hot tub which seats up to 20 people. One of the most exciting new features is the bubble couch, which consists of an isolated aquatic bench that massages its users with a chorus of bubbles while they recline and enjoy the afternoon.

- See more at: http://today.ttu.edu/2009/06/texas-tech-making-a-splash/#sthash.AnpVC5zt.dpuf

 

 

But add a flow ride to the lazy river to make it better

Edited November 23, 2013 by TRB

[wmr]

I'd like to see an attempt at a more historical looking building for the next mid-rise.  I like the 5 story height, too.  Its a good level of density.  I see people complaining about Sterling Frisco being too big or overwhelming.  Even driving right beside it, it just isn't a very imposing building, IMO.  I like that level and hope to see more of it.

[Mith242]

I'd like to see an attempt at a more historical looking building for the next mid-rise.  I like the 5 story height, too.  Its a good level of density.  I see people complaining about Sterling Frisco being too big or overwhelming.  Even driving right beside it, it just isn't a very imposing building, IMO.  I like that level and hope to see more of it.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there.  And for that matter many of the other recent posts in this topic as well.

[JamesE]

I'd like to see an attempt at a more historical looking building for the next mid-rise.  I like the 5 story height, too.  Its a good level of density.  I see people complaining about Sterling Frisco being too big or overwhelming.  Even driving right beside it, it just isn't a very imposing building, IMO.  I like that level and hope to see more of it.

 

Good point - lots of university towns have very similar buildings adjacent to campus. The anti-development types will complain no matter what is built,

[wmr]

And I agree, Hillcrest's exterior renovation is looking great.  I had hoped for more, but a simple paint job and it looks like maybe new windows? in some sections will make a huge difference.

 

EJ Ball Plaza really did wonders for the look of their building with those new blue-tinted windows a few years ago.  

 

With the Cosmopolitan looking sharp, and now Hillcrest and EJ Ball, Fayetteville's three tallest non-university structures have all had updates over the past three years.  Our skyline looks better than ever.

[JamesE]

And I agree, Hillcrest's exterior renovation is looking great.  I had hoped for more, but a simple paint job and it looks like maybe new windows? in some sections will make a huge difference.

 

EJ Ball Plaza really did wonders for the look of their building with those new blue-tinted windows a few years ago.  

 

With the Cosmopolitan looking sharp, and now Hillcrest and EJ Ball, Fayetteville's three tallest non-university structures have all had updates over the past th

ree years.  Our skyline looks better than ever.

 

And if Sarah Marsh has her way, that'll be the only skyline we'll have for a long while...

Edited November 25, 2013 by JamesE

[wmr]

They city council passed the height restrictions, almost as they were originally proposed, except that it only applies to single family home adjacent properties in the downtown area.

 

I don't understand.  Sarah Marsh and Matthew Petty actually voted AGAINST the ordinance, and were trying to get it amended to address many real concerns.  In other words, Marsh and Petty were trying to pass something MORE FRIENDLY to developers overall.  The rest of the council voted in favor of the original ordinance.

 

I no longer have any doubts that our city is being run by utter morons.  

Edited December 4, 2013 by wmr

[TRB]

They city council passed the height restrictions, almost as they were originally proposed, except that it only applies to single family home adjacent properties in the downtown area.

 

I don't understand.  Sarah Marsh and Matthew Petty actually voted AGAINST the ordinance, and were trying to get it amended to address many real concerns.  In other words, Marsh and Petty were trying to pass something MORE FRIENDLY to developers overall.  The rest of the council voted in favor of the original ordinance.

 

I no longer have any doubts that our city is being run by utter morons.  

Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it.

[zman9810]

Looks like there will a couple of ways to deal with the restrictions. One- get a variance, which will probably be next to impossible with the current Council makeup.  A second way would be if a developer wants to build next to a single family home in those zones they could buy the lot the home is on and tear it down- problem solved. I don't think that was the aim of ordinance but it's like TRB says- watch what you ask for.

[JamesE]

They city council passed the height restrictions, almost as they were originally proposed, except that it only applies to single family home adjacent properties in the downtown area.

 

I don't understand.  Sarah Marsh and Matthew Petty actually voted AGAINST the ordinance, and were trying to get it amended to address many real concerns.  In other words, Marsh and Petty were trying to pass something MORE FRIENDLY to developers overall.  The rest of the council voted in favor of the original ordinance.

 

I no longer have any doubts that our city is being run by utter morons.  

 

Yup.  Marsh & Petty were trying to extort the city into compromising on something they thought would wind up being only slightly tedious to developers and instead they got the ball rolling on an ordinance that evectively submits the Fayetteville 2030 Plan to seppuku when it comes to downtown in-fill - and to top it off, Marsh & Petty had the audacity to blame developers for this colossal trainwreck they put into motion.

 

As you said, our city is being run by utter morons - two camps of morons, in fact: cynical morons with negiotiation skills and plain stupid morons with no vision for the future of our city.  The only remaining questions in my mind are how long is it going to take for this insanity to get repealed and how much damage will be done in the interim.

Edited December 4, 2013 by JamesE

[comreguy]

Yup.  Marsh & Petty were trying to extort the city into compromising on something they thought would wind up being only slightly tedious to developers and instead they got the ball rolling on an ordinance that evectively submits the Fayetteville 2030 Plan to seppuku when it comes to downtown in-fill - and to top it off, Marsh & Petty had the audacity to blame developers for this colossal trainwreck they put into motion.

 

As you said, our city is being run by utter morons - two camps of morons, in fact: cynical morons with negiotiation skills and plain stupid morons with no vision for the future of our city.  The only remaining questions in my mind are how long is it going to take for this insanity to get repealed and how much damage will be done in the interim.

 

Once again Fayetteville shoots itself in the foot.

[aerotive]

Yeah, if people around here cannot deal with height downtown--even the marginally high buildings that would happen in a college town--well, that's a really bad sign.  Maybe there's some good-ole-boy corruption behind this.  Otherwise it makes so little sense.

[wmr]

Its very disappointing.

 

This city wastes all this time and energy PROHIBITING good infill, yet when suburban sprawl developments are proposed, they pass without a whimper.  

 

Sadly, we get the leadership we vote for.  

[wmr]

Here's where you can send some emails, although phone calls would be better.  In my experience, the council NEVER responds to email.

 

http://www.accessfayetteville.org/government/city_council/

 

Everybody voted for this except for Marsh & Petty.  But Marsh proposed the original language, so its as much her fault.  Adella Gray stated that she would support no height restrictions in the last meeting, yet she also voted FOR this ordinance.  

[JamesE]

Once again Fayetteville shoots itself in the foot.

 

With a shotgun.

[JamesE]

Here's where you can send some emails, although phone calls would be better.  In my experience, the council NEVER responds to email.

 

http://www.accessfayetteville.org/government/city_council/

 

Everybody voted for this except for Marsh & Petty.  But Marsh proposed the original language, so its as much her fault.  Adella Gray stated that she would support no height restrictions in the last meeting, yet she also voted FOR this ordinance.  

 

Marsh owns this, despite her belated attempts to divert the trainwreck she put into motion.  We can only hope the damage will be undone sooner rather than later, very likely by new council members and only after many missed opportunities finally jolt the remaining members back into reality.

 

Nothing exposes cynicism and poor leadership quite like voting against one's own proposal - and then blaming the very same people who objected to the ordinance from the begining for it having passed, as Marsh did this morning on the Fayetteville Flyer.  Her argument seems to be this would have wound up being a very good and beneficial ordinance if only those who opposed her would have negiotiated nicely with her gun pointed at their heads (or at the very least, their business plans), helping her to craft something far more sensible and less destructive than what she had actually demanded, in the brief time before her foolish collegues took her threat seriously and actually pulled the trigger - which they did.  And now it's the hostages' own fault he got shot. Pure foolishness.

Edited December 4, 2013 by JamesE