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Connectivity is important no matter what is built there. It seems that most of the opposition is because it is "student" housing and the opponents are using the stereotypical accusations of unruly behavior to make their arguments. Regardless if it is student housing or aimed at the general public development there will increased traffic through the neighborhoods and this particular design will do so less than most student housing being developed in the city. This design also seems like good transition between the neighborhoods and a commercial area further towards Wedington.

The opposition is primarily due to the increased traffic through the residential neighborhoods between Sang and Razorback Rd. The infrastructure is not built for the increase this property will bring and anyone with sense knows that students are going to flood those streets instead of taking Wedington to Garland.

I will add that my house is in the affected area and I have heard from many (>10) of my neighbors. Not a single one has mentioned unruly behavior as a reason for the opposition. It's a traffic and safety issue. You can't walk on most of those streets right now without risking your life and it will become unbearable if this happens.

Edited by IronScott
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Tell me what type of development would not increase traffic and would be OK with the bordering neighborhood. I have a feeling most would be against most everything that's realistic.

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Tell me what type of development would not increase traffic and would be OK with the bordering neighborhood. I have a feeling most would be against most everything that's realistic.

 

As devil's advocate, there are types of development that would not drive the majority of their traffic through the neighborhood Iron Scott described.  If it were just a traditional housing development, a lot of the morning and evening traffic would be heading to and from I-49 north as commuters to work.  With student-oriented development, its basically going to function as off-campus dorms, and so its legit believe that most of the traffic from that development will be to and from campus, via Cleveland/Sang.  I'm not saying its a good enough reason to deny it, I'm just saying that's why it being student-oriented is more troublesome for that particular neighborhood.

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I think that rsf4 is what this land is worth the least as. Like I said, when the streamside ordinance was passed, it really impacted this parcel. This parcel has a major road (wedington) and interstate frontage. I don't see residential single family 4 in its future. Anything more dense and it's going to attract students anyway. There's way too many students in RSF4 in this city as it is. If it was me, I would flop a movie theater(new AMC home) upscale bowling alley, pads for some fast casuals, microbrewery and local and national retail, a mid rise office building or two catering to tech start ups and other things in downtown feel setting.

Edited by TRB
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I think that rsf4 is what this land is worth the least as. Like I said, when the streamside ordinance was passed, it really impacted this parcel. This parcel has a major road (wedington) and interstate frontage. I don't see residential single family 4 in its future. Anything more dense and it's going to attract students anyway. There's way too many students in RSF4 in this city as it is. If it was me, I would flop a movie theater(new AMC home) upscale bowling alley, pads for some fast casuals, microbrewery and local and national retail, a mid rise office building or two catering to tech start ups and other things in downtown feel setting.

 

All of that sounds like better use of the property.  Honestly I wonder if there is a master plan for the property.  It would be worth it in the long run for the property owner.

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Tell me what type of development would not increase traffic and would be OK with the bordering neighborhood. I have a feeling most would be against most everything that's realistic.

 

wmr said it better than I could. 

 

As devil's advocate, there are types of development that would not drive the majority of their traffic through the neighborhood Iron Scott described.  If it were just a traditional housing development, a lot of the morning and evening traffic would be heading to and from I-49 north as commuters to work.  With student-oriented development, its basically going to function as off-campus dorms, and so its legit believe that most of the traffic from that development will be to and from campus, via Cleveland/Sang.  I'm not saying its a good enough reason to deny it, I'm just saying that's why it being student-oriented is more troublesome for that particular neighborhood.

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I agree with TRB.  There has got to be a better use of this property than student housing.  With the Interstate and a major road like Wedington I would think that housing would not be the best land use.  Hotels, offices, casual and fast food restaurants, theater, small water park, dealerships all sound like a better fit.  I'd assume that this development is only taking up a certain amount and that maybe future plans will add some commercial areas.  There is only so much developable land along he I-49 corridor in Fayetteville.

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I agree with TRB.  There has got to be a better use of this property than student housing.  With the Interstate and a major road like Wedington I would think that housing would not be the best land use.  Hotels, offices, casual and fast food restaurants, theater, small water park, dealerships all sound like a better fit.  I'd assume that this development is only taking up a certain amount and that maybe future plans will add some commercial areas.  There is only so much developable land along he I-49 corridor in Fayetteville.

The land in question does not abut the interstate and is the easternmost portion of the Marinoni farm. A separate property owner owns the frontage.

 

I think the cottage development is about the only thing that can pay the price wanted for the property and add the density that will bring the commercial uses to the area. There isn't enough big box/theater/shops/restaurants to fill a development covering the entire site so there will have to be some RMF component for the property to be appropriately developed.

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The opposition is primarily due to the increased traffic through the residential neighborhoods between Sang and Razorback Rd. The infrastructure is not built for the increase this property will bring and anyone with sense knows that students are going to flood those streets instead of taking Wedington to Garland.

I will add that my house is in the affected area and I have heard from many (>10) of my neighbors. Not a single one has mentioned unruly behavior as a reason for the opposition. It's a traffic and safety issue. You can't walk on most of those streets right now without risking your life and it will become unbearable if this happens.

Local media reported that a resident that has lived on Sunset Drive for 50 years sent a letter to planning commissioners stating, in part, "have been kept awake until the wee hours by out of control parties and wandering inebriates. The thought of what will happen if 300 to 700 more students are imposed on the neighborhood is terrifying."  This and the common use of students as scapegoats is what led me to make that observation.

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I agree with TRB.  There has got to be a better use of this property than student housing.  With the Interstate and a major road like Wedington I would think that housing would not be the best land use.  Hotels, offices, casual and fast food restaurants, theater, small water park, dealerships all sound like a better fit.  I'd assume that this development is only taking up a certain amount and that maybe future plans will add some commercial areas.  There is only so much developable land along he I-49 corridor in Fayetteville.

I was also thinking that housing was a poor use of the land but as the city planners pointed out this will only take a small portion of the entire area and serve as a buffer to commercial uses further towards Wedington and I49. Imagine the backlash if someone suggested a water park right next to the neighborhoods- I bet it would be even stronger than student housing.

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Local media reported that a resident that has lived on Sunset Drive for 50 years sent a letter to planning commissioners stating, in part, "have been kept awake until the wee hours by out of control parties and wandering inebriates. The thought of what will happen if 300 to 700 more students are imposed on the neighborhood is terrifying."  This and the common use of students as scapegoats is what led me to make that observation.

Fair enough. I had not read that. I'm on a neighborhood email list. This topic, as you can imagine, has been beaten to death. Unruly kids has not been in those conversations, at least none that I recall. It's all been traffic related. That's where my opinion is from.

 

I will say that the neighborhood in general doesn't like the student renters in the neighborhood, so that opinion from the article doesn't surprise me. I have students next door on one side and several across the street. With one exception where some fireworks were shot off after a football game, I've had no trouble with them at all.

 

For my own sake I hope this property doesn't get built. The neighborhood has a lot of seasoned, grouchy people, but I'm in agreement with them about the likely increased traffic. It's already dangerous enough and will only get worse.

 

 

On a separate note, I heard the fraternity house on Markham/Thomas is going to be razed due to structural issues and won't be rebuilt. Probably another parking lot will be put there lot 73 will be expanded. Anyone else hear about this?

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Answer me this IS, Isn't this the same ward that voted in Ms. Streamside Lewis so she could pad her eviro credentials on her resume and split town soon after and now Sarah Marsh, who I hear is getting married and moving off. Both big trail proponents while the needs of sidewalks and stuff in this area received scant attention? I ask cause you mentioned how dangerous it is to walk the area already. How bout quizzing some or your prospective aldermen on their plans of longevity in the hood.

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Answer me this IS, Isn't this the same ward that voted in Ms. Streamside Lewis so she could pad her eviro credentials on her resume and split town soon after and now Sarah Marsh, who I here is getting married and moving off. Both big trail proponents while the needs of sidewalks and stuff in this area received scant attention? I ask cause you mentioned how dangerous it is to walk the area already. How bout quizzing some or your prospective aldermen on their plans of longevity in the hood.

I've only been there about 8 months and don't know the history. Sidewalks are currently being built on Sang and Halsell and one is planned for Thomas. Those are the only ones I know of but there may be more planned.

A neighbor told me that years ago people were against building sidewalks in that neighborhood so they didn't get built. The tune is much different now and that's a good thing, IMO.

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Answer me this IS, Isn't this the same ward that voted in Ms. Streamside Lewis so she could pad her eviro credentials on her resume and split town soon after and now Sarah Marsh, who I hear is getting married and moving off. Both big trail proponents while the needs of sidewalks and stuff in this area received scant attention? I ask cause you mentioned how dangerous it is to walk the area already. How bout quizzing some or your prospective aldermen on their plans of longevity in the hood.

 

Too bad the damage has already been done by Sarah Marsh and the rest of the council members...

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It looks like Collier is thinking retail development with some residential is a good idea for the Dickson/Block lot. He also is looking at plenty of parking for it. Evidently he doesn't have a set plan and is open to ideas. The conventional thinking is that it will have to be a multi-story project because of the price paid for the property.

 

Seems like a good use of the property if done right. I assume he means a larger type retail and not the little boutique type shops that cover the area downtown. Larger retail spaces demand plenty of convenient, free parking in order to bring customers in. Retail on bottom and a couple or more floors of different types of residential on top might keep the neighbors from rising up in opposition although I'm sure they will be unhappy with anything that is proposed. It would be nice if a anchor such as a Lewis and Clark or even a Neighborhood Market could be brought in- something that would be sure to bring in customers and those customers would visit the other retail in the development.

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It looks like Collier is thinking retail development with some residential is a good idea for the Dickson/Block lot. He also is looking at plenty of parking for it. Evidently he doesn't have a set plan and is open to ideas. The conventional thinking is that it will have to be a multi-story project because of the price paid for the property.

 

Seems like a good use of the property if done right. I assume he means a larger type retail and not the little boutique type shops that cover the area downtown. Larger retail spaces demand plenty of convenient, free parking in order to bring customers in. Retail on bottom and a couple or more floors of different types of residential on top might keep the neighbors from rising up in opposition although I'm sure they will be unhappy with anything that is proposed. It would be nice if a anchor such as a Lewis and Clark or even a Neighborhood Market could be brought in- something that would be sure to bring in customers and those customers would visit the other retail in the development.

 

The site that Collier purchased isn't large enough to do anything box wise and still get parking he wants. Expect ground floor restaurants and boutiques, if he does anything. Paying nearly $50 per sf for dirt is going to make it very difficult to do anything that isn't 5-6 stories tall and with the step backs we now have, the developer is really squeezed on the site. You need mass on the ground floor to compensate for the loss of square footage going vertical. If he wants self contained parking, it further diminishes the rentable area.

 

This one is going to take some creativity, flexibility from city and Sharkey, some time, and some serious $$$

 

Of course, all this is assuming that he cares about a return on investment and not just in adding parking to the area to support the drug store. Seems like a huge price to pay for that though.

Edited by comreguy
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I agree it will take some flexibility by all parties involved. I actually was thinking one of the Express stores and not a Neighborhood Market- it would still be a draw and not nearly as large. I would think putting a deck at the same spot Barber planned would give plenty of parking and free up the property along Dickson and Block for store fronts.

 

Although I am all for it I'll be surprised if a 5-6 story building is not fought by Shirkey and others. Like you say- it will take some creativity to convince the City to go along with it in face of that opposition. I think it can be done and if the idea is good enough maybe a variance to that ordinance can be obtained.

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I agree it will take some flexibility by all parties involved. I actually was thinking one of the Express stores and not a Neighborhood Market- it would still be a draw and not nearly as large. I would think putting a deck at the same spot Barber planned would give plenty of parking and free up the property along Dickson and Block for store fronts.

 

Although I am all for it I'll be surprised if a 5-6 story building is not fought by Shirkey and others. Like you say- it will take some creativity to convince the City to go along with it in face of that opposition. I think it can be done and if the idea is good enough maybe a variance to that ordinance can be obtained.

The Shirkeys don't get to dictate development in the heart of the city.  The fact that we've gone as far as we have to satisfy them is a bit embarrassing.  We've put the property rights of ONE family on a pedestal and thrown the property rights of several other residents out the friggin window.  Its past time for them to get over it and deal with the fact that central Fayetteville is going to grow.

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The Shirkeys don't get to dictate development in the heart of the city.  The fact that we've gone as far as we have to satisfy them is a bit embarrassing.  We've put the property rights of ONE family on a pedestal and thrown the property rights of several other residents out the friggin window.  Its past time for them to get over it and deal with the fact that central Fayetteville is going to grow.

Well...I don't think it is one individual or family so much as that name is simply the latest figurehead for what has always been a segment of Fayetteville's population that doesn't want the city to change much. That segment was around back in the early 80's when what is now the East Square Plaza- Chancellor Hotel area redo was planned. It is the same group that tried to implement a Historical District for the Dickson St. area very recently, which if that had passed we likely wouldn't be discussing what should go on this property.

 

As is often the case, a small but very vocal group of Fayetteville's residents have gained the ears of our city leaders and gotten their wishes put into an ordinance that makes it more difficult for development to occur. During the economic downturn of recent years that group had free rein to enact what they wanted without opposition from those who wanted to invest and develop new projects in the city. Witness this ordinance and the stream side ordinance- the developers and investors that would have appeared at city meetings to fight those were instead for fighting for their own economic survival. Now that the economic situation has recovered and there is not only the interest to develop but also the means I think there is a better chance of the City working with individuals and groups who want to invest in the city and grow it. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the years to come.

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Marinoni / Capstone project is cancelled.

I got this in email with no privacy disclaimer so I hope it's okay to post. Delete if necessary.

...

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

The Marinoni family and Capstone Properties have terminated the contract for the proposed development on our property.

Ultimately we were not able to come to agreement on who was paying for all the extra costs imposed on the project.

The family will be bringing forward a request to the City to drop connections that would funnel traffic thru the neighborhood to the east, as is proposed in the Master Street Plan. We hope the neighbors will join us in that effort.

We will look to come to an agreement with the City of Fayetteville and the neighbors to the east regarding connectivity and access prior to the next proposal for development.

Sincerely,

Mary Sue Shaw

For the Marinoni Family

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