Fayetteville, Arkansas

[itk]

Here is the link to the video: Joyce/College Video

and here is the link to the article: Road Projects

It looks like they goofed on the video-- the video I'm seeing is the existing intersection, not the proposed CFI. Oh well.

[Mith242]

It looks like they goofed on the video-- the video I'm seeing is the existing intersection, not the proposed CFI. Oh well.

Yeah now that I saw the other one that's certainly the way it's working now. I'm guessing it was supposed to eventually show the new system but dies before it gets there. But the new link shows a video of how it works.

[strmchsr77]

Yeah now that I saw the other one that's certainly the way it's working now. I'm guessing it was supposed to eventually show the new system but dies before it gets there. But the new link shows a video of how it works.

Thanks for that other link Rod. That seems kind of crazy, and I really don't think that I have ever been on that type of system. It seems like it would cost more than 4 million dollars to set up something like that on College and Joyce.

[Mith242]

Thanks for that other link Rod. That seems kind of crazy, and I really don't think that I have ever been on that type of system. It seems like it would cost more than 4 million dollars to set up something like that on College and Joyce.

I suppose the good thing is there seems to be available room. But as I said before I still can't help but think the Fulbright Expressway is a big cause of the traffic headaches at that intersection. I think 'opening up' part of the expressway or cutting down the length and allowing some north south traffic around the Mall Ave area would be a big help.

[CellarDoor135]

So am I crazy or did we not just pay Dover-Khol to map out a general plan for 2025? We sure aren't taking it too seriously from the looks of this confusing and most definitely NOT pedestrian-friendly approach to making north Fayetteville more "accessible." For a forward-thinking town, our plans for this future network of roads is eerily similar to, oh, every other suburban area in America with its impossibly wide highways and intricate intersections that are just begging motorists to get into accidents. Why not actually consider the idea of turning both College and Fulbright into large, wide boulevards where pedestrians can walk the outside and high-speed traffic moves down the center, while slower lanes of traffic service businesses. Sound far-fetched? Check out the Champs Elysees in Paris, it's exactly what Dover Khol was alluding to. And by the way, the fact that they referenced a survey asking people whether or not they would use alternative transportation in that area was very dissapointing seeing that those surveyed had probably NEVER considered or were aware of the better alterntives. I thought that the charettes put forth actually meant something, being attended by citizens of Fayetteville who actually gave a damn about what the city would grow into.

[Mith242]

So am I crazy or did we not just pay Dover-Khol to map out a general plan for 2025? We sure aren't taking it too seriously from the looks of this confusing and most definitely NOT pedestrian-friendly approach to making north Fayetteville more "accessible." For a forward-thinking town, our plans for this future network of roads is eerily similar to, oh, every other suburban area in America with its impossibly wide highways and intricate intersections that are just begging motorists to get into accidents. Why not actually consider the idea of turning both College and Fulbright into large, wide boulevards where pedestrians can walk the outside and high-speed traffic moves down the center, while slower lanes of traffic service businesses. Sound far-fetched? Check out the Champs Elysees in Paris, it's exactly what Dover Khol was alluding to. And by the way, the fact that they referenced a survey asking people whether or not they would use alternative transportation in that area was very dissapointing seeing that those surveyed had probably NEVER considered or were aware of the better alterntives. I thought that the charettes put forth actually meant something, being attended by citizens of Fayetteville who actually gave a damn about what the city would grow into.

I think Fayetteville's biggest concern about this area is that with the traffic problems it will make more people simply go shop in Rogers instead of Fayetteville. In this case I think they have to allow some more vehicular friendly traffic because people from Springdale and other parts of NWA aren't going to be walking to the NWA Mall. I do see what you're saying though, and I do want the city to focus on that as well. But until we can find a better solution I would say let's try to change other sections of College Ave first and then try to figure out something for the Mall area part of the city. If we scare off everyone shopping at the Mall then that's less tax money we'll get to eventually work on these pedestrian friendly measures.

[itk]

I think Fayetteville's biggest concern about this area is that with the traffic problems it will make more people simply go shop in Rogers instead of Fayetteville. In this case I think they have to allow some more vehicular friendly traffic because people from Springdale and other parts of NWA aren't going to be walking to the NWA Mall. I do see what you're saying though, and I do want the city to focus on that as well. But until we can find a better solution I would say let's try to change other sections of College Ave first and then try to figure out something for the Mall area part of the city. If we scare off everyone shopping at the Mall then that's less tax money we'll get to eventually work on these pedestrian friendly measures.

I think that was rather well put. I think Coody's desired vision will be tried for College Avenue. For the Mall area, I think it's too late. Even when they redeveloped a part of that area (Nelson's Crossing), it's still auto-oriented. People who will work at the new P&G complex will drive to lunch. People who shop at the Mall will drive to Starbucks. So on and so forth.

[Mith242]

I think that was rather well put. I think Coody's desired vision will be tried for College Avenue. For the Mall area, I think it's too late. Even when they redeveloped a part of that area (Nelson's Crossing), it's still auto-oriented. People who will work at the new P&G complex will drive to lunch. People who shop at the Mall will drive to Starbucks. So on and so forth.

The biggest problem for the Mall area too is that they are going to want it to be auto friendly for all the people outside Fayetteville. If it's too hard to get to then you just push more people to shop at the Pinnacle Hills Promenade and any other future shopping area in Benton County. I do agree with City Plan 2025. But at the same time I think we have to be a little realistic and realize we can't change the whole city. At least not initially, it's going to take some time. I do know the Dover Kohl group mentioned that as property values go up then the mall parking lot would become too valuable to simply leave as a lot. It would make sense to build a parking deck and then use some of that land for other uses and such. But I think we're going to have to wait for those property values to go up before they even consider building a parking deck. I'm also a little curious to see just how enthusiastic city officials are on this. Some of what I've seen already makes me question how far they are going to follow the Dover Kohl plan. Cutting down the building height again is going to hinder building up density that will make the Dover Kohl plan work. We might have to do little sections of the city at a time. Some city officials might want to start off slow to see how it will work first. That and I'm still curious to see how far the city is going to allow infill.

[jdevers]

I have a question concerning the CFI option at Joyce and College. If you go to the engineering companies website they have a simple demonstration of how it works. I understand the concept and how they could easily apply to the north bound left turn, but none of the rest of the intersection (at least for anything approaching the cost they have listed). OK, so the N bound left turn lane REALLY backs up and this could help with that a lot, but it won't reduce the number of phases at the intersection if this is the only turn they remove.

[Mith242]

I have a question concerning the CFI option at Joyce and College. If you go to the engineering companies website they have a simple demonstration of how it works. I understand the concept and how they could easily apply to the north bound left turn, but none of the rest of the intersection (at least for anything approaching the cost they have listed). OK, so the N bound left turn lane REALLY backs up and this could help with that a lot, but it won't reduce the number of phases at the intersection if this is the only turn they remove.

I admit I don't know all the details here. I'm not sure if that one north bound turn lane will be the only one or not. That one website just shows the one but that was just a generic one and they might have just shown one to simplify and make it easier to see what's going on. While I see there being room for at least one I'm not sure if they could put in other for the other sides of the intersection or not.

[strmchsr77]

I have a question concerning the CFI option at Joyce and College. If you go to the engineering companies website they have a simple demonstration of how it works. I understand the concept and how they could easily apply to the north bound left turn, but none of the rest of the intersection (at least for anything approaching the cost they have listed). OK, so the N bound left turn lane REALLY backs up and this could help with that a lot, but it won't reduce the number of phases at the intersection if this is the only turn they remove.

The northbound turn lane does really back up but it is not the only one. The westbound turn lanes on Joyce really back up at certain times a day as well. It is not uncommon to have to wait through 3 or 4 lights during the afternoons.

[itk]

I have a question concerning the CFI option at Joyce and College. If you go to the engineering companies website they have a simple demonstration of how it works. I understand the concept and how they could easily apply to the north bound left turn, but none of the rest of the intersection (at least for anything approaching the cost they have listed). OK, so the N bound left turn lane REALLY backs up and this could help with that a lot, but it won't reduce the number of phases at the intersection if this is the only turn they remove.

You're right. For CFI to work, it has to be two opposing left-turning lanes. So if they do the nortbound direction, they must do the southbound direction. If they do the westbound direction, they have to do the eastbound direction.

[aerotive]

Anyone know if there are any plans to connect Milsap to Shiloh? It's insanely inefficient to drive from one to the other, and AFAIK there's no way at all to walk it.

[Mith242]

Anyone know if there are any plans to connect Milsap to Shiloh? It's insanely inefficient to drive from one to the other, and AFAIK there's no way at all to walk it.

I agree, if the Fulbright Expressway didn't act as a wall and totally cut off and funnel traffic to the Joyce/College intersection I think that would also help a lot. They will be extending the Scull Creek Trail northward past the Fulbright Expressway and connect it to the Mudd Creek Trail. I think that could be part of what they'll be working on this year. The Scull Creek Trail is just west of Washington Regional. Right now only a little bit is done till they finish with utility and road work on Gregg.

[jdevers]

OK, so the next question then becomes is there anywhere near enough room to make the southbound L turn lane a CFI? The stop light to enter the mall and the opposing business park is pretty close to the Joyce intersection. Also, for this to work they will have to buy some pretty expensive right of way on the west side of 71B there. Also, while the southbound L turn lane here isn't all that busy now, there are about to be a lot of people living and working at P&G and the Bellafont area. Combine that with the work that is about to happen on Zion road and more people will be using Joyce eastbound.

[itk]

Anyone know if there are any plans to connect Milsap to Shiloh? It's insanely inefficient to drive from one to the other, and AFAIK there's no way at all to walk it.

Yes... it was in the paper. It was one of the 4 options that was talked about. A connection from Millsap/North Hills Blvd to Steele/Shiloh under Fulbright. Check out the article on-line-- NWA Times has their archives in pdf , so you can see the pictures. If I was smart and had time, I would post it.

[itk]

OK, so the next question then becomes is there anywhere near enough room to make the southbound L turn lane a CFI? The stop light to enter the mall and the opposing business park is pretty close to the Joyce intersection. Also, for this to work they will have to buy some pretty expensive right of way on the west side of 71B there. Also, while the southbound L turn lane here isn't all that busy now, there are about to be a lot of people living and working at P&G and the Bellafont area. Combine that with the work that is about to happen on Zion road and more people will be using Joyce eastbound.

That's something the consultants will be looking at in the months to come. You're right, it'll be tight. If this were to be a reality, there would probably be a few impacts on adjacent businesses. But it's all about getting your bang for your buck. Typically, CFI's are being considered, and have been considered, in lieu of the ultimate drastic solution to intersection congestion-- building a grade-seperated interchange, which is very expensive.

Here's an example of a major one Utah DOT is constructing in Salt Lake City: google earth lat: 40 41 47.85 N and long: 111 58 50.96 W, which is 3500 South and Bangerter (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=109039, http://www.udot.utah.gov/download.php/tid=...South%20CFI.pdf). Here, they have a mature grid network. But it's an intersection of two major roads, and it's congested. They will definitely have impacted businesses. But constructing a CFI instead of a grade-seperated interchange is, they decided, an attractive option to help reduce their congestion. Just an example.

[Mith242]

I forgot to mention this yesterday but there was a nice detailed list of what streets in Fayetteville would get a new layer of asphalt in the Northwest Arkansas Times. I think it equaled about 5 miles for each ward.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Mith242

[mzweig]

I forgot to mention this yesterday but there was a nice detailed list of what streets in Fayetteville would get a new layer of asphalt in the Northwest Arkansas Times. I think it equaled about 5 miles for each ward.

Saw that! My street is one of them--yea! I just hope I can convince the powers to be about the need for an island at the bottom of the hill on Prospect where it hits Park. Way too wide of an intersection there, and no one knows where they should be lane-wise. It's hazardous to the pedestrians to have a street that wide and completely unnecessary.

[jiggyK]

all i know is is that college through the downtown area and on into the mill district (archbald yell)sp? really needs help. the road is so jacked through there that it's hard not to bounce right off it. i've driven on dirt roads that were --dare i say-- miles better. surely they're going to re-surface that-- with someting that will last more than five years.

[zman9810]

all i know is is that college through the downtown area and on into the mill district (archbald yell)sp? really needs help. the road is so jacked through there that it's hard not to bounce right off it. i've driven on dirt roads that were --dare i say-- miles better. surely they're going to re-surface that-- with someting that will last more than five years.

Since it's a state highway the city won't be resurfacing that one. Until the Ren Tower is finished and a definite plan for beautification along the sides is in place I imagine it will be rough.

[Mith242]

Since it's a state highway the city won't be resurfacing that one. Until the Ren Tower is finished and a definite plan for beautification along the sides is in place I imagine it will be rough.

Yeah I agree with you there. Because it is a state highway the city isn't in full control of it. But like you said some of this will also probably wait till after the Renaissance Tower is done. But first we have to get it started.

[Mith242]

On another note looks like Fayetteville is going to push for having a single high school instead of two.

[cowbreath]

On another note looks like Fayetteville is going to push for having a single high school instead of two.

That kind of sucks I guess if it is true. Might as well have two. I blame it all on football and wanting the highest state football classification.

[cocothief]

That kind of sucks I guess if it is true. Might as well have two. I blame it all on football and wanting the highest state football classification.

Its almost a foregone conclusion that there will eventually be two in Fayetteville.

I found some of the commentary from residents during the open forum to be very short-sighted, especially that from teens currently attending FHS.

The decision will eventually be made.

I think the school district should build a smaller high school somewhere NE for about 600 students, and at first make attendance flexible and optional. Some students would not care as much about athletics as long as academics could be made comparable.

If the smaller NE high school is built, build it with a definite floor plan of how it can be easily expanded when needed.

That would allow the SD to lock in some of the construction and land prices at today's cost, while not alienating all of the residents who base their school choices on athletic classifications.