Fayetteville, Arkansas

[cowbreath]

Speaking of cheap housing, the newspaper today mentioned the affordable housing bid/quest by Fayetteville: Affordable housing

I think if you looked around Fayetteville there are enough houses that look "affordable" (or cheap). Living in Fayetteville isn't really cheap though. If you're not just giving 10% to the church you're giving more than that to the city (strike the church comment, found the rates being similar as funny). The cities intention on using government classifications for affordable housing seems admirable, but it is a confusing issue and is beyond my scope of understanding as to why we need to talk about it and do anything about it at the government level. If anyone has some interesting thoughts that can shed light on the issue I'd like to hear it. I have a suspicion it is a nice project to have on a resume, but I hope it has some real value to it.

[thewizard16]

Speaking of cheap housing, the newspaper today mentioned the affordable housing bid/quest by Fayetteville: Affordable housing

I think if you looked around Fayetteville there are enough houses that look "affordable" (or cheap). Living in Fayetteville isn't really cheap though. If you're not just giving 10% to the church you're giving more than that to the city (strike the church comment, found the rates being similar as funny). The cities intention on using government classifications for affordable housing seems admirable, but it is a confusing issue and is beyond my scope of understanding as to why we need to talk about it and do anything about it at the government level. If anyone has some interesting thoughts that can shed light on the issue I'd like to hear it. I have a suspicion it is a nice project to have on a resume, but I hope it has some real value to it.

The city has been concerned about this for some time and recent findings (some of you may know what I'm talking about, but I can't say anything specific or I'd be in trouble) have overwhelmingly concluded that most people in Fayetteville do not feel there is enough quality affordable housing. Cheap housing is one thing, but decent cheap housing is quite different. Redevelopment of rundown areas is a concern too, and is being looked at.

[Mith242]

I think what's concerned a lot of people is that many of our city employees, teachers, firefighters, etc are actually living outside the city. As was just pointed out, there is some 'cheap' housing to be found. But it may not be very desirable either and perhaps not a place that someone would want to raise their family. I think overall the city just wants there to be some options, especially for people who actually work for the city.

[cowbreath]

I think what's concerned a lot of people is that many of our city employees, teachers, firefighters, etc are actually living outside the city. As was just pointed out, there is some 'cheap' housing to be found. But it may not be very desirable either and perhaps not a place that someone would want to raise their family. I think overall the city just wants there to be some options, especially for people who actually work for the city.

i wouldn't think that would be a reasonable concern, though, because there are many people in our country/world who can't afford to live where they work. It sounds like an unreasonable entitlement if you look at it from that angle. On the other, as you said employees, teachers, firefighters may reasonably need to be located in the city limits. I don't know if the housing prices today are reasonable for the government to compete with because they are so inflated and out of the average salary range. In a few years maybe it'll adjust itself, because I'm sure there was a time when these people could have afforded to live in Fayetteville (15 years ago).

[cowbreath]

The city has been concerned about this for some time and recent findings (some of you may know what I'm talking about, but I can't say anything specific or I'd be in trouble) have overwhelmingly concluded that most people in Fayetteville do not feel there is enough quality affordable housing. Cheap housing is one thing, but decent cheap housing is quite different. Redevelopment of rundown areas is a concern too, and is being looked at.

Yeah I wouldn't consider most housing in Fayetteville (in the affordable or starter home range) to be "quality" housing. I wouldn't mind seeing redevelopment of current housing or infill as options for this kind of affordable development. South Fayetteville has a lot of cheaper housing (although a lot of neighborhoods have gone bad (as far as maintenance). It doesn't make sense to me to make "new" houses to be affordable when old houses can be found. Speaking of infill, it's crazy how much land is undeveloped within Fayetteville itself. South Fayetteville because of its proximity in this region is largely undeveloped and many farms or open land exist just a half mile or mile from downtown.

[thewizard16]

Yeah I wouldn't consider most housing in Fayetteville (in the affordable or starter home range) to be "quality" housing. I wouldn't mind seeing redevelopment of current housing or infill as options for this kind of affordable development. South Fayetteville has a lot of cheaper housing (although a lot of neighborhoods have gone bad (as far as maintenance). It doesn't make sense to me to make "new" houses to be affordable when old houses can be found. Speaking of infill, it's crazy how much land is undeveloped within Fayetteville itself. South Fayetteville because of its proximity in this region is largely undeveloped and many farms or open land exist just a half mile or mile from downtown.

Much of South Fayetteville should be becoming increasingly prominent in city-focused TIF districts and local neighborhood infill plans in the near future as well.

[Mith242]

I still think it's a good idea to at least look into this. With Fayetteville still showing so well in so many rankings I don't think we'll drop in desirability and many people will continue to want to live here. But that also keeps prices up, especially as people wanting to relocate take notice of our rankings. It might not have to be something to worry about but I still like to use Santa Fe as a model. Another city around our size that is also known for it's strict city ordinances. It's a very nice city, but it's become a place where prices have gone to extremes. So many people from the east and west coasts have moved in. It's now become a place that so many job positions in the city are done by people who live well outside the city because it's too expensive to live there now. I wish I could remember what magazine I read this in, perhaps Natl Geographic, but it focused a bit on this woman who worked more than one job and I was thinking it said she made around $50K and she said she still couldn't afford to live in Santa Fe. Maybe Fayetteville would never get to that extreme but I'm not sure I'd want Fayetteville heading down that path.

[thewizard16]

I still think it's a good idea to at least look into this. With Fayetteville still showing so well in so many rankings I don't think we'll drop in desirability and many people will continue to want to live here. But that also keeps prices up, especially as people wanting to relocate take notice of our rankings. It might not have to be something to worry about but I still like to use Santa Fe as a model. Another city around our size that is also known for it's strict city ordinances. It's a very nice city, but it's become a place where prices have gone to extremes. So many people from the east and west coasts have moved in. It's now become a place that so many job positions in the city are done by people who live well outside the city because it's too expensive to live there now. I wish I could remember what magazine I read this in, perhaps Natl Geographic, but it focused a bit on this woman who worked more than one job and I was thinking it said she made around $50K and she said she still couldn't afford to live in Santa Fe. Maybe Fayetteville would never get to that extreme but I'm not sure I'd want Fayetteville heading down that path.

Even more importantly, since I doubt Fayetteville would ever reach that level, is making sure the affordable areas of town aren't slummy. We already have issues with places being run down, which the city attributes mostly to rental properties and lazy landlords. That's probably right, and I have no doubt that the ordinances they've been kicking around for those problems might help, but the single family home, in decent neighborhoods, with good upkeep, at an affordable price (payments of less than 30% of a family's annual income) is the type of development goal they want to promote right now.

[cocothief]

Even more importantly, since I doubt Fayetteville would ever reach that level, is making sure the affordable areas of town aren't slummy. We already have issues with places being run down, which the city attributes mostly to rental properties and lazy landlords. That's probably right, and I have no doubt that the ordinances they've been kicking around for those problems might help, but the single family home, in decent neighborhoods, with good upkeep, at an affordable price (payments of less than 30% of a family's annual income) is the type of development goal they want to promote right now.

Perhaps the city should focus on increasing incomes and attracting higher paying jobs rather than on downgrading home prices.

I see so much in Fayetteville that needs revamping property-wise, I find it hard to believe we are anywhere near to being unaffordable as compared to other cities nationwide.

New home prices in the past few years aside, I think there are still affordable houses in Fayetteville.

There probably isn't a city in the USA where a person can purchase a home making less than 20k per year.

[mzweig]

Perhaps the city should focus on increasing incomes and attracting higher paying jobs rather than on downgrading home prices.

I see so much in Fayetteville that needs revamping property-wise, I find it hard to believe we are anywhere near to being unaffordable as compared to other cities nationwide.

New home prices in the past few years aside, I think there are still affordable houses in Fayetteville.

There probably isn't a city in the USA where a person can purchase a home making less than 20k per year.

Good points, as usual, Coco. That seems like a more positive approach to the problem.

M

[thewizard16]

Perhaps the city should focus on increasing incomes and attracting higher paying jobs rather than on downgrading home prices.

I see so much in Fayetteville that needs revamping property-wise, I find it hard to believe we are anywhere near to being unaffordable as compared to other cities nationwide.

New home prices in the past few years aside, I think there are still affordable houses in Fayetteville.

There probably isn't a city in the USA where a person can purchase a home making less than 20k per year.

That's a good point and a major concern as well, but one the city probably doesn't feel it can influence as much. I think they're just finding it easier to encourage "affordable" development than attract better jobs, or at the very least feel they can influence that more. I doubt we're much less affordable than many cities in the US, and I'm not all that concerned about it personally, but I can understand why some people might be. It's hard to find low-income people willing to fix places up too, a problem that's nearly universal. Once something gets cheap and slummy, it tends to stay that way unless an investor or realtor fixes it up. I bought a slight fix-it in Mtn. Home (not slummy, just had been tied up in lawsuits for two years between family members before the bank got it, and needed some freshening since it's not the 70s anymore) and it's worth twice what it was five years ago, but more importantly, it's now a nice place that was obtained for not a whole lot of money, with a reasonably small amount of monetary investment into it and just a little work. If more people were willing to do that around Fayetteville, we wouldn't have a lot of the neighborhoods that are being complained about. (Note: I do realize that perhaps some people that buy these places can't afford to fix them, and I understand that, I'm not attacking those people, I'm complaining about the apathetic.)

[masons_dad1]

Its really a shame that so many people in Fayetteville would rather just bring in wealthier people who can afford rising housing costs than to provide affordable housing for those who aren't as fortunate as those people profiting from buying older homes and making them unaffordable. I for one wouldn't live in a city where only the wealthier residents can afford decent housing, whether I could afford to or not.

[thewizard16]

Its really a shame that so many people in Fayetteville would rather just bring in wealthier people who can afford rising housing costs than to provide affordable housing for those who aren't as fortunate as those people profiting from buying older homes and making them unaffordable. I for one wouldn't live in a city where only the wealthier residents can afford decent housing, whether I could afford to or not.

I agree with that, it's impossible to have everyone make a "healthy" income, or you wouldn't have fast food employees and maids. Those people (when married, I don't see how on one income) shouldn't be forced to live in slummy old houses or apartments, they should have a chance to have a decent home too. I for one didn't buy the older house I bought to profit off of it (yet), I bought it because it was the best investment I could see at the time: 1600 sq. ft. (it's now 2200, I turned the relatively large screened in porch into house with minimal modification to the wall between them, and just added a regular deck out back), a mile from city limits, quiet dead-end street neighborhood, on 2 acres, for under $80k. It's now been cleaned up inside with new paint, a little new carpet here and there, and a little extra space, and it appraised at $165,000. Hard to beat for that market unless you're buying something in really bad shape. (well, there was one property that beat it deal-wise, but I got beat to the sale on that by an older couple which I still get a little annoyed about when I think of it, but hey, that's how it goes) When I no longer have need for the house, I'll probably sell it at a decent profit, but for now, it's just an affordable home I've made a little nicer. I don't see why many of the people here that buy these 60s and 70s homes couldn't do the same (for themselves, not just to resell), or at least keep the outside looking like it's not in a state of disrepair, but that doesn't seem to be the style in some parts of town.

[cocothief]

Its really a shame that so many people in Fayetteville would rather just bring in wealthier people who can afford rising housing costs than to provide affordable housing for those who aren't as fortunate as those people profiting from buying older homes and making them unaffordable. I for one wouldn't live in a city where only the wealthier residents can afford decent housing, whether I could afford to or not.

Thats one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that people want to live here. Why not do your best to attract jobs that those people who are already here can aspire to do?

Housing is, in my mind, much like transportation.

Everybody needs it.

Some can afford a Lexus, while others are stuck with a bicycle.

A person's ability to create wealth determines what type of housing/ transportation they can afford.

I have never understood the mentality of entitlement.

Fayetteville has much more pressing issues right now than so-called "affordable housing".

I do like the idea that has been presented that would provide some city incentives for fire and police and teachers, etc, because I see how having those people living nearby their work is beneficial for all. I also think that those people are all terribly underpaid.

Otherwise, I believe that housing should be determined by market forces.

I cannot afford a house on Mount Sequoyah, and I am fine with that. I do not believe that it is my right to have it, regardless of my income.

I extrapolate that reality out to the larger community and I do not understand the whole issue, except in cases like Mith presented in the Santa Fe example, being something the city should be involved in.

Economic development, on the other hand, is something I believe the city should be greatly involved in.

[cowbreath]

I have never understood the mentality of entitlement.

Nowadays, people have to work hard for their house as it probably is meant to be. One of the confusing things for me is the escalating housing prices that have really come around without as much increase in pay. I mean, it is difficult to understand how house prices increased so fast and how land prices are regulated or controlled. Obviously at the end of things it just market value being related to supply and demand, but I guess I'm just surprised how things got. Was it wrong beforehand for house prices to be so low? Or is it wrong now that prices have gotten so high? Either way it was something on steroids that caused the one or the other I guess. I'm pretty sure state or city workers are screwed though.

[cowbreath]

Thinking about it I'm getting more appreciative that the city is looking into affordable housing solutions with the developers themselves. If it was up to developers they would work on what could give them the best profit margin (or it seems that is their motivation). Adding government aid can help in motivating them to develop more quality conscientious developments. Also it can help the city to at least see what the developers are willing to do or come up with. It gives the city some options, too, to dwell upon. It is kind of the city's responsibility to provide housing for those type of people (firefighters, city workers, etc.), but it could also be construed as market manipulation or avoidance of salary increases (or inability to increase salary guidelines at a state level). Normally the city has that type of housing, but not these days. Housing is at its height of inaffordability. Which makes this seem more like a "new deal" style operation for the government to embark on.

[cocothief]

Nowadays, people have to work hard for their house as it probably is meant to be. One of the confusing things for me is the escalating housing prices that have really come around without as much increase in pay. I mean, it is difficult to understand how house prices increased so fast and how land prices are regulated or controlled. Obviously at the end of things it just market value being related to supply and demand, but I guess I'm just surprised how things got. Was it wrong beforehand for house prices to be so low? Or is it wrong now that prices have gotten so high? Either way it was something on steroids that caused the one or the other I guess. I'm pretty sure state or city workers are screwed though.

I agree that affordability is rarer these days.

I was just thinking about how when my grandad bought a house, it was maybe 6,000.00. Of course, he only made 3,000.00/yr. But, he also didn't have a college education. Being able to buy a house with two years' income and not having higher education is a thing of the past, and we are worse off in that regard.

I understand the idealism that motivates some in Fayetteville to prioritize this idea of affordable housing.

If people couldn't afford to pay the prices, then the market would adjust. Developers have to make money, too.

Fayetteville jobs don't pay well in general, and a lot of the higher priced homes go to retirees with $, or corporate workers commuting north.

I say the primary thing Fayetteville could control is to increase incomes in Fayetteville by attracting better paying jobs.

No one seems too concerned about all the traffic created by the Vendorville employees commuting OUT of Fayetteville for jobs.

It seems that some of the same reasons given for increasing affordability in Fayetteville could be given for improving employment opportunities in Fayetteville as well.

[Mith242]

Thats one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that people want to live here. Why not do your best to attract jobs that those people who are already here can aspire to do?

Housing is, in my mind, much like transportation.

Everybody needs it.

Some can afford a Lexus, while others are stuck with a bicycle.

A person's ability to create wealth determines what type of housing/ transportation they can afford.

I have never understood the mentality of entitlement.

Fayetteville has much more pressing issues right now than so-called "affordable housing".

I do like the idea that has been presented that would provide some city incentives for fire and police and teachers, etc, because I see how having those people living nearby their work is beneficial for all. I also think that those people are all terribly underpaid.

Otherwise, I believe that housing should be determined by market forces.

I cannot afford a house on Mount Sequoyah, and I am fine with that. I do not believe that it is my right to have it, regardless of my income.

I extrapolate that reality out to the larger community and I do not understand the whole issue, except in cases like Mith presented in the Santa Fe example, being something the city should be involved in.

Economic development, on the other hand, is something I believe the city should be greatly involved in.

Very well put.

[Mith242]

Nowadays, people have to work hard for their house as it probably is meant to be. One of the confusing things for me is the escalating housing prices that have really come around without as much increase in pay. I mean, it is difficult to understand how house prices increased so fast and how land prices are regulated or controlled. Obviously at the end of things it just market value being related to supply and demand, but I guess I'm just surprised how things got. Was it wrong beforehand for house prices to be so low? Or is it wrong now that prices have gotten so high? Either way it was something on steroids that caused the one or the other I guess. I'm pretty sure state or city workers are screwed though.

I think it in part is the way the housing market was slow to keep up with demand for so many years as we were booming. I also think Fayetteville gets it the most. Even though many of the higher paying jobs that are coming into the area (vendors) work in Bentonville, there's still plenty who like what Fayetteville has to offer. Then you also have people like the Californians who move to Fayetteville who also help drive the prices up. We are still dirt cheap compared to what they are used to. While I do like the idea of having some affordable housing, I'm also not sure if Fayetteville could really make it happen. If demand is there then it seems prices are dictated by that.

[thewizard16]

I think it in part is the way the housing market was slow to keep up with demand for so many years as we were booming. I also think Fayetteville gets it the most. Even though many of the higher paying jobs that are coming into the area (vendors) work in Bentonville, there's still plenty who like what Fayetteville has to offer. Then you also have people like the Californians who move to Fayetteville who also help drive the prices up. We are still dirt cheap compared to what they are used to. While I do like the idea of having some affordable housing, I'm also not sure if Fayetteville could really make it happen. If demand is there then it seems prices are dictated by that.

That's another good point: there's no assurance that this will work. Fayetteville is wanting to work with developers to encourage redevelopment of run-down neighborhoods into "affordable" housing, but that doesn't mean that it'll necessarily work. Obviously, if there isn't a good market for it, it won't work because no developer would jump on a sinking ship knowingly, but another problem is what the city considers "affordable". They define it as "payments of 30% or less of a household's income". Well, they didn't release an average income or target figure for that either. I'm pretty sure that say, by Houston Nutt's income, we're all doing great. On the other hand, if we go by the single lady that takes out the trash, it's all screwed, and probably not fixable.

I have a feeling that before any serious strides are made on this, there will be some more "real" guidlines that show what, exactly, the city is wanting to promote. Right now they've just found out that most people here think that there aren't enough single family homes, first time homebuyer homes, or affordable housing, so they're paying lip service to make us all feel better. I'm interested to see what they'll actually do.

[masons_dad1]

If people couldn't afford to pay the prices, then the market would adjust. Developers have to make money, too.

That's really the key to affordable housing. Most people argue that affordable housing is based on one's "ability to pay", but in reality affordable housing is based on one's "willingness to pay". As long as houses are selling and apartments are renting then there's no need to lower prices and rents or even provide affordable housing options.

The problem then arises when those who are "unable to pay" what those who are "willing to pay" cannot find a decent place to live. How does the city know when that happens? Homelessness and crime are very good indicators that there is a need for more affordable housing. But, as long as homelessness and crime are lower than the national average noone cares. So prices and rents continue to rise until homelessness and crime reach national averages; then obviously the city steps in and pushes for more affordable housing.

Unfortunately, for those who are "unable to pay" life will not get any better in NWA because homelessness and crime have always been much lower than the national average; or just go unreported. These people tend to leave NWA and move to metros that offer more homelessness and higher crime rates, where, ironically, affordable housing is easy to find.

[Mith242]

Oh I'd say crime is certainly less than the national average, not just unreported. Growing up in southern Arkansas I can see a huge difference between here and there. But speaking of people going elsewhere, it's hard to tell since we still seem to be growing in population. But this brings up another issue which reminds me of the Seven Hills Shelter. They eventually scaled it back because it was getting a bit too successful. It was becoming rather well known in the area and was drawing more and more homeless people. Some people in the city didn't mind helping those in the city who needed it. But then they balked when it began drawing people from other areas who started hearing more about it. I've wondered if this in any way could apply to the affordable housing situation. Let alone the fact what keeps someone from buying the 'affordable housing' and then rent it out or sell it a few years later at a higher price because demand will allow them? Affordable housing sounds great, but can you stipulate conditions such as what you can do with the house once it's sold?

[masons_dad1]

Oh I'd say crime is certainly less than the national average, not just unreported. Growing up in southern Arkansas I can see a huge difference between here and there. But speaking of people going elsewhere, it's hard to tell since we still seem to be growing in population. But this brings up another issue which reminds me of the Seven Hills Shelter. They eventually scaled it back because it was getting a bit too successful. It was becoming rather well known in the area and was drawing more and more homeless people. Some people in the city didn't mind helping those in the city who needed it. But then they balked when it began drawing people from other areas who started hearing more about it. I've wondered if this in any way could apply to the affordable housing situation. Let alone the fact what keeps someone from buying the 'affordable housing' and then rent it out or sell it a few years later at a higher price because demand will allow them? Affordable housing sounds great, but can you stipulate conditions such as what you can do with the house once it's sold?

Crime itself is not usually something that goes unreported, but homelessness is. Not many people want to admit to their employers that they are homeless or even want anyone else to know about it. Being homeless doesn't always mean you live in the streets. Most homeless people live with family members or even friends. They are categorized as homeless because they don't have a home of their own for whatever reason; mostly due to the absence of affordable housing, although many homeless people can afford housing costs they are just unwilling to pay what many consider unfair housing costs. Many choose to be homeless so they can put away enough money to move to another city that does provide affordable housing.

The sad thing is that many people seem to confuse affordable housing with charity. A homeless shelter is provided for people who are usually destitute and not usually a desirable option for most homeless people who would rather live with a family member or a friend until they can afford to escape from the unaffordable city they currently live in. The destitute that tend to use homeless shelters really have no other options. The fact that the Seven Hills Shelter became overwhelmed may have to do with a lot of destitute people seeking a better life in Fayetteville and finding that there aren't any jobs for the destitute. People who are destitute have very few options to get out of their situtation other than crime or suicide, but occasionally a few do get lucky.

Again, affordable housing is NOT charity so if someone who qualifies for affordable housing does buy a house they can do whatever they want with it; sell it or rent it out. What's right for one homebuyer should be right for the other. What prevents affordable housing from being abused is stipulating who qualifies for affordable housing by enforcing strict income guidelines. Its what our governement likes to refer to as the "American Dream" and organizations like HUD and Fannie Mae are trying to make affordable to ALL Americans.

[cowbreath]

Very well put.

Agreed. Your point also and others were very good, too.

I'm thinking some of the most underdesirable structures might make for some better affordable housing. I'm thinking of Hillcrest Tower as a possible example although I don't have an idea of its cost. The condos planned near the mill district all seem to be a little cheaper in their look, but for the purpose of condos near downtown at cheaper prices. These kind of concrete style structures (also like the dorms at UA) seem to be able to spring up so easily in other countries with populous metros. I'm guessing it must be a cheap solution. However, I'm not sure people are willing to welcome them into the city, and I'm not sure that is what they are looking for in terms of affordable housing.

Edited October 2, 2007 by cowbreath

[cocothief]

Agreed. Your point also and others were very good, too.

I'm thinking some of the most underdesirable structures might make for some better affordable housing. I'm thinking of Hillcrest Tower as a possible example although I don't have an idea of its cost. The condos planned near the mill district all seem to be a little cheaper in their look, but for the purpose of condos near downtown at cheaper prices. These kind of concrete style structures (also like the dorms at UA) seem to be able to spring up so easily in other countries with populous metros. I'm guessing it must be a cheap solution. However, I'm not sure people are willing to welcome them into the city, and I'm not sure that is what they are looking for in terms of affordable housing.

Like Cabrini Green? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green

Every neighborhood isn't going to have the same character.

I suppose they could with some massive social engineering, but I really don't think our city should focus on that.

I know it seems heartless to be so anti-affordable housing. I've just had bad encounters with Section-8 in the past.

I work hard, and dammit, if I want to use my money to be exclusive in my decision as to where I live, I will.

I don't want the government subsidizing some crime infested crack den next door "for the greater good". I know thats an extreme example and generalization, but its my fear.

I used to be much more "socially conscious" until I started paying real taxes.

Edited October 2, 2007 by cocothief