Greenville Journal contents

[RestedTraveler]

-The Federal Government is now looking at 6 sites downtown for a future courthouse. One of these sites in play is near Camperdown Way and Falls Street. The Memorial Auditorium site is still on the list, but is considered a last option... My only hope is that the site(s) are small, so it keeps the Courthouse compact. The last thing we want is a sprawling building and parking. It's what we're trying to get rid of now...

I hope perhaps this lot adjacent to the old Federal Court House is on that list. I wonder what property near Falls and Camperdown they're talking about - perhaps the postal facility? That would make sense to me.

-The city hopes to take up the issue of another garage for Riverplace in the next 60 days. In addition, the city may do more than a garage for the massive downtown development along the banks of the Reedy River... What other things can the city possibly add to Riverplace besides the garage? Public Art? Be a tenant? or maybe it's referring to artist spaces? Ideas anyone??

Also, "another garage" would seem to refer to Phase III, since it's not simply expanding the same garage... Maybe we'll get that Riverplace tower sooner rather than later

A working fountain? A new visitor's center? More artists spaces are in the works for the next residential building in Phase II. They've already hinted at that. Maybe another pedestrian bridge (such as shown in the RiverPlace renderings)?

[gs3]

Great Issue this week in terms of development stuff...

- A major announcement should be coming from Clemson University regarding automotives sometime in the next week or so... I wonder what this could be? I'm assuming it's in Greenville, and therefore at ICAR and would more than likely not be Rolls. I hope it means more jobs, and not another "partnership with NASCAR" or something. Anyone got any ideas?

-Leaders from ever city in South Carolina will be in Greenville next week to learn more about how the city has pulled off so much development. The Municipal Association of South Carolina is holding its annual meeting here, which means hundreds of hotel rooms will be filled as well... This is great! Looking to Greenville as an example and more hotel rooms full...

Some excellent info this week! I really like these two!

CU-ICAR was suppose to announce a couple of months back I thought.

[GvilleSC]

I hope perhaps this lot adjacent to the old Federal Court House is on that list. I wonder what property near Falls and Camperdown they're talking about - perhaps the postal facility? That would make sense to me.

A working fountain? A new visitor's center? More artists spaces are in the works for the next residential building in Phase II. They've already hinted at that. Maybe another pedestrian bridge (such as shown in the RiverPlace renderings)?

That is going to be a great property right there. If the Feds aren't interested, I hope some quality developer is. Across the street from a huge garage, less than a block from McBee, one block from Main (not counting Brown street)...

I like the thought of the pedestrian bridge. Something I had not thought of. That indeed would be a huge asset, especially for those living at Poinsett Corners, and at Downtown Baptist... We've seen what a great bridge can do for an area (the falls helped, but the bridge is an attraction just as much so as the falls).

[RestedTraveler]

That is going to be a great property right there. If the Feds aren't interested, I hope some quality developer is. Across the street from a huge garage, less than a block from McBee, one block from Main (not counting Brown street)...

That lot currently appears to be a staging area for the 98 East McBee/Peacock project, but you're right...if the Feds do pass up this spot in spite of its location, it would be an ideal site for a massive high rise development (I'm thinking something like a mini version of something like Hearst Tower in Charlotte or 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta - both are favorites of mine).

[GvilleSC]

That lot currently appears to be a staging area for the 98 East McBee/Peacock project, but you're right...if the Feds do pass up this spot in spite of its location, it would be an ideal site for a massive high rise development (I'm thinking something like a mini version of something like Hearst Tower in Charlotte or 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta - both are favorites of mine).

I like the way you think, RT! I could live with a Greenville version of the Hearst tower on that site. Well, if I take the developer road in my career as opposed to being an architect, I'll put it on my list of things to build, but I'll be sure to not dissapoint as a local developer.

[krazeeboi]

That lot currently appears to be a staging area for the 98 East McBee/Peacock project, but you're right...if the Feds do pass up this spot in spite of its location, it would be an ideal site for a massive high rise development (I'm thinking something like a mini version of something like Hearst Tower in Charlotte or 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta - both are favorites of mine).

Both would be excellent prototypes.

[btoy]

That lot currently appears to be a staging area for the 98 East McBee/Peacock project, but you're right...if the Feds do pass up this spot in spite of its location, it would be an ideal site for a massive high rise development (I'm thinking something like a mini version of something like Hearst Tower in Charlotte or 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta - both are favorites of mine).

That lot is owned by Vivian Wong/Independence National Bank and will be their headquarters site when they are ready to build it, probubly a couple years away.

[vicupstate]

That would be a good location for a new Courthouse. That also begs the question, what will happen to the current courthouse when the new one is built? Will it remain or will it be emptyed and surplused? If it is still used, it would make sense to have the new building next door.

I'm sure for the right price, Independence could be persuaded to find a different location. Besides the feds could use emenient domain, although that would be very unlikely, iMO.

[vicupstate]

Also, "another garage" would seem to refer to Phase III, since it's not simply expanding the same garage... Maybe we'll get that Riverplace tower sooner rather than later

I think that is a stretch. The city had to wait awhile to save up enough for the garage, so I doubt they have enough dough for TWO, an expansion of the current one and an entirely new one for phase 3. Probably just a poor choice of words. JB can say for sure though.

[DowntownCityGirl]

That lot currently appears to be a staging area for the 98 East McBee/Peacock project, but you're right...if the Feds do pass up this spot in spite of its location, it would be an ideal site for a massive high rise development (I'm thinking something like a mini version of something like Hearst Tower in Charlotte or 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta - both are favorites of mine).

That lot is actually being used as a staging area for the City's stormwater project, which is likely to go on for another 6 months at the rate it's moving. But perhaps they'll clear out in time for the Peacock to use it for staging when the City's done.

As for the Federal building, I thought of the Post Office site as well, since it's already Federal property (and what they're using it for now really could be done on a much less expensive or high-profile piece of property). But there's also the old Carolina First building across Camperdown Way from the Post Office site, and it would be great to see something active in that space again.

[GvilleSC]

That would be a good location for a new Courthouse. That also begs the question, what will happen to the current courthouse when the new one is built? Will it remain or will it be emptyed and surplused? If it is still used, it would make sense to have the new building next door.

I was thinking that I had heard on here that the old Fed Court House is going to be a bankruptcy Court building once the new Carroll Campbell Federal Court House is built. Is that correct?

[vicupstate]

I was thinking that I had heard on here that the old Fed Court House is going to be a bankruptcy Court building once the new Carroll Campbell Federal Court House is built. Is that correct?

Now that you mention it, that does ring a bell.

[goodbye]

Great Issue this week in terms of development stuff...

- A major announcement should be coming from Clemson University regarding automotives sometime in the next week or so... I wonder what this could be? I'm assuming it's in Greenville, and therefore at ICAR and would more than likely not be Rolls. I hope it means more jobs, and not another "partnership with NASCAR" or something. Anyone got any ideas?

-Leaders from ever city in South Carolina will be in Greenville next week to learn more about how the city has pulled off so much development. The Municipal Association of South Carolina is holding its annual meeting here, which means hundreds of hotel rooms will be filled as well... This is great! Looking to Greenville as an example and more hotel rooms full...

-Expect to hear something in the next two-to-three months on the plans for the former Memorial Auditorium site as the new ownership group does a market study on what can be built there...

-Plans for the old City Hall site may end up being taller than expected, but that doesn't mean more stories are being added. The ground underneath the site is much more solid than expected, so the entire project will be lifted. The city has set a date of Sept 6 to close on the property with Windsor-Aughtry Co... I'm excited about this. Though it's not more floors, it will increase its impact visually on people entering downtown from the South and West. Cool! Plus, it is going to add density and the taller it is, the more dense it will seem...

-The Federal Government is now looking at 6 sites downtown for a future courthouse. One of these sites in play is near Camperdown Way and Falls Street. The Memorial Auditorium site is still on the list, but is considered a last option... My only hope is that the site(s) are small, so it keeps the Courthouse compact. The last thing we want is a sprawling building and parking. It's what we're trying to get rid of now...

-More plans for the Woodruff Rd Traffic Study should be available in the next 30 days.The State budget included $2 million for work on Salters Rd. Good move for the state government.

-The city hopes to take up the issue of another garage for Riverplace in the next 60 days. In addition, the city may do more than a garage for the massive downtown development along the banks of the Reedy River... What other things can the city possibly add to Riverplace besides the garage? Public Art? Be a tenant? or maybe it's referring to artist spaces? Ideas anyone??

Also, "another garage" would seem to refer to Phase III, since it's not simply expanding the same garage... Maybe we'll get that Riverplace tower sooner rather than later

-----------------------------------------

Nice article on a study that compared our downtown to other similar sized metros, including Charleston. The article says we're growing faster than Charleston and Chattanooga and roughly at the same pace as the other two cities in the comparison, Asheville and Greensboro. It cites that we should not expect any national chain retailers, like Gap, to come downtown any time soon, though regional chains are possible. It says that only 46% of downtown businesses are resturants, which surprised me. In the last four years, it says, 700 units have been built downtown, and they say we can support another 520-640 in the next ten years. Stats that we may or may not know:

-ranked #2 in SC in Metro size

-takes 6 minutes to drive from downtown to I-85

-25% population growth since 1990

-ranks 83rd in metro size nationwide

-150 establishments are downtown

Thanks so much for posting this info, GvilleSC.

Check out the agenda for the MASC conference next week. Definitely good exposure statewide for Greenville.

[distortedlogic]

I like the idea of the ice rink, but i am a little skeptical that two would be able to coexist. I would also prefer one to be part of a much larger entertaiment complex somewhere DT, maybe on the Collins propert.

[gs3]

RBC does have a ATM and Branch at falls Place. Their insurance office is on Wade Hampton in one of the old Liberty Life Buildings.

Look like Ameris Bancorp of Georgia is the new bank moving into Greenville. 7 locations.

http://www.amerisbank.com/

[GvilleSC]

Look like Ameris Bancorp of Georgia is the new bank moving into Greenville. 7 locations.

http://www.amerisbank.com/

7? geeez! Seems like quite a limb they're going out on to move into the market. But maybe they've stolen enough lenders from local banks to make it a safe move. If not, it will pay off in the long run I'm sure.

[Charleston native]

...Nice article on a study that compared our downtown to other similar sized metros, including Charleston. The article says we're growing faster than Charleston and Chattanooga and roughly at the same pace as the other two cities in the comparison, Asheville and Greensboro...

OK, since nobody has brought up the inaccuracy of this newspaper article, I feel inclined to do so. Another UP poster PM'd me about it, and it has to be addressed. Like it or not, Greenville is not the fastest growing metro area in the state. That distinction should be given to the Myrtle Beach metro area. In addition, G'ville's MSA is not growing faster than the Chas MSA. Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville, as indicated by the following estimates from the Census Bureau:

Charleston

2000: 549,033

2006: 603,178

Change: 54,145

% change: 9.86%

Greenville

2000: 559,940

2006: 601,986

Change: 42,046

% change: 7.51%

Myrtle Beach

2000: 196,629

2006: 238,493

Change: 41,864

% change: 21.30%

Now, you also have this development stating the same thing, which is false information. Before somebody starts bashing me, let me be clear that I do not debate the G'ville metro's size. It is obviously bigger than Chas' MSA. However, the growth rate is clearly in my hometown's favor. MB and Chas are the fastest growing areas in the state, and Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville. Somebody from the newspaper seriously skewed their information.

[breed]

OK, since nobody has brought up the inaccuracy of this newspaper article, I feel inclined to do so. Another UP poster PM'd me about it, and it has to be addressed. Like it or not, Greenville is not the fastest growing metro area in the state. That distinction should be given to the Myrtle Beach metro area. In addition, G'ville's MSA is not growing faster than the Chas MSA. Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville, as indicated by the following estimates from the Census Bureau:

Charleston

2000: 549,033

2006: 603,178

Change: 54,145

% change: 9.86%

Greenville

2000: 559,940

2006: 601,986

Change: 42,046

% change: 7.51%

Myrtle Beach

2000: 196,629

2006: 238,493

Change: 41,864

% change: 21.30%

Now, you also have this development stating the same thing, which is false information. Before somebody starts bashing me, let me be clear that I do not debate the G'ville metro's size. It is obviously bigger than Chas' MSA. However, the growth rate is clearly in my hometown's favor. MB and Chas are the fastest growing areas in the state, and Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville. Somebody from the newspaper seriously skewed their information.

What's the old adage about lies, damned lies, and statistics?

Aside from Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head, Georgetown, and Charlotte, Greenville's MSA was the fastest growing between 1990 and 2000. It is conceivable that Myrtle Beach, Georgetown, and Hilton Head's comparative size made them excludable. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is. Depending upon your source, you could argue just about anything you want, especially when you throw in the common ambiguity of what an "MSA" is.

[btoy]

OK, since nobody has brought up the inaccuracy of this newspaper article, I feel inclined to do so. Another UP poster PM'd me about it, and it has to be addressed. Like it or not, Greenville is not the fastest growing metro area in the state. That distinction should be given to the Myrtle Beach metro area. In addition, G'ville's MSA is not growing faster than the Chas MSA. Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville, as indicated by the following estimates from the Census Bureau:

Charleston

2000: 549,033

2006: 603,178

Change: 54,145

% change: 9.86%

Greenville

2000: 559,940

2006: 601,986

Change: 42,046

% change: 7.51%

Myrtle Beach

2000: 196,629

2006: 238,493

Change: 41,864

% change: 21.30%

Now, you also have this development stating the same thing, which is false information. Before somebody starts bashing me, let me be clear that I do not debate the G'ville metro's size. It is obviously bigger than Chas' MSA. However, the growth rate is clearly in my hometown's favor. MB and Chas are the fastest growing areas in the state, and Chas MSA is growing faster than G'ville. Somebody from the newspaper seriously skewed their information.

Some things to think about, not haveing the article in front of me. Your statistics show growth over a period of six years, what time period was the article looking at? Also was it looking actual growth or projected, anyone have Claritas' projections?

And didn't the MSA for Greenville change? didn't they recently spereate Spartanburg and Greenville again. Didn't it go from Greenville-Spartanburg to Greenville-Mauldin-Easley with Spartanburg as a seperate MSA?

[erm1981]

^^^Sources say yes. Greer and Mauldin were two of the fastest growing cities in the state and they are directly linked to Greenville and Spartanburg. It is odd he decided to post this in the Greenville Journal contents. We have a seperate thread to talk about population figures. And dont be surprised if Greenville ends up passing charleston and columbia in the future census figures as far as Urban Areas and MSA's are concerned.

[Charleston native]

Please. What the newspaper reported is inaccurate, and I only mentioned it because another poster told me of this inaccuracy. The growth rate in Chas during the 90s was also considerably high, but the most accurate measure of a growth rate starts from the last official census. The numbers from last census show a higher rate in Chas, and a much higher rate in MB. There's no getting around it.

I know, everybody wants to live in their utopia and ignore reality, but I can't let it slide. Am I being critical of G'ville? No, but I am going to point out fallacies from a supposedly unbiased and objective news medium.

[GvilleSC]

I think it's interesting that two things, one a website for a high-end development and the other a study of comparable metros, both cited this. Where is their information coming from and I'm sure there's probably more things out there using the same information. I highly doubt they just made it up.

[erm1981]

Well if your using the last official census then the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA was together then. If that is the case in the 2010 census then Charleston would never catch up. We suspect that the 2010 census will have GSA back together again at around 1.2 million + people. No other area in the state has this kind of population or growth when GSA is combined like it was in the 2000 "official" census. So according to the last "official" census GSA is still one metro. How do you like dem apples?

[Charleston native]

Geez, here we go with the pissing contest. Did I say Chas was going to catch up? Did I say that the Chas MSA would be bigger than G'ville's? Did I ever make that comparison? No, all I did was point out that the newspaper and the development website was wrong and inaccurate on the growth rate. I'm looking at true to life numbers, while you and the G'ville media manipulate the numbers to make false statements. Now, if G'ville made the claim that it is the largest MSA in the state, I wouldn't debate that at all. Cola and G'ville backers can debate that until they're blue in the face.

But again, the rate of growth is different from actual population numbers. Will Chas or MB catch up with G'ville in actual population? Probably not, since G'ville is sandwiched between 2 major cities. However, the growth rate is higher in both locations, making the coast of SC the fastest growing areas in the state.

[krazeeboi]

Here are the latest MSA and CSA statistics from Demographia.com (their numbers are based on Census figures/estimates):

MSA

Charleston

2000: 549,033

2006: 603,178

% change: 9.9%

Columbia

2000: 647,158

2006: 703,771

% change: 8.7%

Greenville

2000: 559,940

2006: 601,986

% change: 7.5%

Myrtle Beach

2000: 196,629

2006: 238,493

% change: 21.3%

CSA

Columbia-Newberry

2000: 683,257

2006: 741,533

% change: 8.5%

Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson

2000: 1,128,077

2006: 1,203,795

% change: 6.7%

Myrtle Beach-Conway-Georgetown

2000: 252,422

2006: 299,353

% change: 18.6%

Charleston does not have a CSA.

These figures make the current MSA designations retroactive so as to give a more accurate picture of growth. In other words, the Greenville MSA figure for 2000 is for Greenville, Pickens, and Laurens counties--the counties that make up the MSA today--instead of those that made up the then Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA in 2000. Otherwise, when comparing the 2000 and 2006 figures, it would appear as though Greenville experienced a significant population decrease, going from almost 1 million to ~600K.

I think just about any way you cut it, Myrtle Beach is going to come out on top in terms of growth rate in SC since 2000.

Well if your using the last official census then the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA was together then. If that is the case in the 2010 census then Charleston would never catch up. We suspect that the 2010 census will have GSA back together again at around 1.2 million + people. No other area in the state has this kind of population or growth when GSA is combined like it was in the 2000 "official" census. So according to the last "official" census GSA is still one metro. How do you like dem apples?

Cut it out.

And metropolitan areas can officially be redesignated in non-Census years.