Greenville Journal contents

[krazeeboi]

Is the goal to try and make the Haywood Road corridor more urban in form (mixed-use structures pulled up to the street, increased walkability, etc.)? If so, then eliminating the grass medians is preferable.

[Greenville]

Is the goal to try and make the Haywood Road corridor more urban in form (mixed-use structures pulled up to the street, increased walkability, etc.)? If so, then eliminating the grass medians is preferable.

Yes, that is the goal, along with nice landscaping, buried power lines, wayfinders, etc. Good point!

[GvilleSC]

Is the goal to try and make the Haywood Road corridor more urban in form (mixed-use structures pulled up to the street, increased walkability, etc.)? If so, then eliminating the grass medians is preferable.

Can you elaborate? I typically find it more pedestrian friendly when you're not trying to walk next to cars going 45 mph. All of Greenville's best pedestrian friendly environments have a buffer between the cars and the people. On most of those roads it's in the form of parking (parallel or diagonal) and some sort of landscaping element (shrubs, trees, flowers). I'm not sure if the Uptown plans will have street parking on Haywood Rd itself, but if not, then I am hoping for some kind of buffer. The plans for Church Street even involve such elements.

[btoy]

The State transportation department soon will begin work on a sidewalk project along Haywood Road from the mall area to Laurens Road. The five-foot wide sidewalk won't have grass medians and is paid for using stimulus funds...

Are you sure about this? Last I heard was the state wouldn't pay for the grass buffer but that the city was going to provide the additional funds to make the grass strip possible.

If you want people to use the sidewalks they need to be set back from the street. Doing so does not make it any less urban. Look at main street, most of the sidewlak on main is sepated from traffic not just by parking but by planters with trees and a metal barrior.

[gman430]

Are you sure about this? Last I heard was the state wouldn't pay for the grass buffer but that the city was going to provide the additional funds to make the grass strip possible.

If you want people to use the sidewalks they need to be set back from the street. Doing so does not make it any less urban. Look at main street, most of the sidewlak on main is sepated from traffic not just by parking but by planters with trees and a metal barrior.

It was in the Greenville News that the new sidewalk wouldn't have a grass buffer/be more pedestrian friendly like you see on Woodruff Road.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20.../910060304/1001 (page 2)

Bourey said the city has been unable to coordinate the line burial with a new sidewalk the state Department of Transportation is installing on the Haywood Mall side of the road using federal stimulus funds.

The sidewalk is facing tight deadlines, and state officials have declined to wait for the city to design a more pedestrian friendly sidewalk and put power lines beneath it, Bourey said. That means power lines will likely go on the other side of the road.

[krazeeboi]

Can you elaborate? I typically find it more pedestrian friendly when you're not trying to walk next to cars going 45 mph. All of Greenville's best pedestrian friendly environments have a buffer between the cars and the people. On most of those roads it's in the form of parking (parallel or diagonal) and some sort of landscaping element (shrubs, trees, flowers). I'm not sure if the Uptown plans will have street parking on Haywood Rd itself, but if not, then I am hoping for some kind of buffer. The plans for Church Street even involve such elements.

IMO, the buffer ought to be parked cars if the city is truly wanting to urbanize the area. Accentuate the street with planters a la Main Street, which also help serve as a buffer but in a more urban way.

[gman430]

Is the goal to try and make the Haywood Road corridor more urban in form (mixed-use structures pulled up to the street, increased walkability, etc.)? If so, then eliminating the grass medians is preferable.

First time i've heard that before. I would think not having grass medians would decrease walkability not increase it.

IMO, the buffer ought to be parked cars if the city is truly wanting to urbanize the area. Accentuate the street with planters a la Main Street, which also help serve as a buffer but in a more urban way.

The grass median would only be a foot or so wide like you see on Woodruff Road, so it's not like having a 10 foot buffer or anything. The city doesn't have the money currently to add parking spaces along Haywood Road. Also, the DOT might not even allow it if the city did have the money.

[krazeeboi]

If you want people to use the sidewalks they need to be set back from the street. Doing so does not make it any less urban. Look at main street, most of the sidewlak on main is sepated from traffic not just by parking but by planters with trees and a metal barrior.

Planters are a bit different than grass strips. Grass strips just scream "suburban." If any main street were to have those separating the sidewalk from the street, it would look awful. Planters, on the other hand, give a much different impression as they are part of the sidewalk itself and are spacially situated to provide space for the pedestrian to enter the sidewalk every so often. The sidewalk is punctuated with them, not lined with them. This also makes planters more practical. Now if Haywood isn't really going to have parking along the street and is going for some sort of suburban-urban hybrid, then maybe grassy strips would be the way to go. Otherwise, it's being done right with no strips.

[krazeeboi]

The grass median would only be a foot or so wide like you see on Woodruff Road, so it's not like having a 10 foot buffer or anything. The city doesn't have the money currently to add parking spaces along Haywood Road. Also, the DOT might not even allow it if the city did have the money.

Just by mentioning Woodruff Road, you should understand what I'm getting at. It's not anything nearly approaching an urban thoroughfare, at least the last time I ventured there. If the city is serious about adding on-street parking in the future, and plans to truly urbanize the corridor or a particular stretch of it, then not having the planting strips is good. Give it the Main Street treatment, except allow for slightly higher speeds. But if the city decides to scrap on-street parking, then a minimal planting strip wouldn't be so bad, like this example in Buckhead after Peachtree was streetscaped:

[gman430]

I'm only referring to the newly widened portion of Woodruff Road between Verdae Blvd. and Laurens Road. It's slowly starting to become more urban thanks to new development like Verdae. I agree it still has a long way to go though. The city wants to do something to Haywood Road like you see in Buckhead, but like I said earlier they don't have the money currently to do that due to the recession. Due to this money problem, they were willing to at least put in a small grass median but the DOT said no.

[GvilleSC]

I understand that the time table for spending this money must be running out, but this is one of those times when Greenville's attention to detail and REAL efforts to enhance itself are being hindered. Now, not knowing all the details, I may be wrong, but there just seems to be a lack of willingness to work together. I didn't even realize this was going to make the power line burial even more difficult. Sometimes it feels like Greenville and its efforts to improve quality of life and itself as a whole could be better off without the State's "help". Is that too harsh? Some cities across the state would be fine with this, but I think Greenville's standards are higher (i.e. I-385 median, Max Heller Gateway, etc). Not to mention that this is a critical time in history to change a strip of suburban sprawl into a new urban node that focuses on mass transit, pedestrian environments, and urban development standards. This is better for the quality of life, growth, and a model solution to a problem that plagues much of the state.

I guess we'll live with what we get.

As far as the buffer goes: with a sidewalk being placed up against the street, there will be no room for parking without removal and replacement of the sidewalk. As a result, without incurring ridiculous expenditures, I'm assuming that we're now locked in with 45 mph cars passing by inches away from pedestrians. Thank you South Carolina!

[GvilleSC]

For those who have no taken a look at the Haywood Rd Master Plan, check it out here on the City's website: Haywood Rd Corridor Master Plan

Here's a link to the plan's immediate recommendations:

Immediate Recommendations

[btoy]

First time i've heard that before. I would think not having grass medians would decrease walkability not increase it.

The grass median would only be a foot or so wide like you see on Woodruff Road, so it's not like having a 10 foot buffer or anything. The city doesn't have the money currently to add parking spaces along Haywood Road. Also, the DOT might not even allow it if the city did have the money.

Just by mentioning Woodruff Road, you should understand what I'm getting at. It's not anything nearly approaching an urban thoroughfare, at least the last time I ventured there. If the city is serious about adding on-street parking in the future, and plans to truly urbanize the corridor or a particular stretch of it, then not having the planting strips is good. Give it the Main Street treatment, except allow for slightly higher speeds. But if the city decides to scrap on-street parking, then a minimal planting strip wouldn't be so bad, like this example in Buckhead after Peachtree was streetscaped:

That is what I think they were going for, not just grass but trees too, just like in that picture, shame the state has to be in such a rush to get things done. I know it is stimulus funds but really it would be better to wait and do it right then to rush it jsut so you can create a few jobs.

As for the state if Haywood is a state road then that is another issue too, its been a issue with Church St. its hard to sell the state on a road diet for a state highway, it was an issue with Church and I am sure will be an issue when they want to do the same thing to Wade Hampton.

[gman430]

Well, this is the perfect time to tell you guys that the sidewalk improvement project for Haywood Road has been removed from SCDOT letting. It was supposed to be let in Oct-09 with construction starting in Nov-09 but it is now listed as removed. Here is the link: http://www.scdot.org/doing/lettings/RESURF...10_for_9=09.htm Look under Oct-09. Oh and Wade Hampton Blvd. improvements are supposed to start early next year.

[GvilleSC]

Is the City still having problems with the state on Church Street, or is that a resolved issue at this point? After all, there's a master plan that clearly states the why, how, and results of their plans.

[gman430]

Is the City still having problems with the state on Church Street, or is that a resolved issue at this point? After all, there's a master plan that clearly states the why, how, and results of their plans.

That is resolved. In fact, it was the state who gave the city the money to do the improvement project. Same goes with Fairforest Way although i'm not sure if that's a state road or not.

[GvilleSC]

That is resolved. In fact, it was the state who gave the city the money to do the improvement project. Same goes with Fairforest Way although i'm not sure if that's a state road or not.

Do you know when we'll see progress on Church Street?

[gman430]

Do you know when we'll see progress on Church Street?

April 2010 is when construction is scheduled to start.

[distortedlogic]

TBAs from Friday October 9, 2009 (Vol. 11, No. 41)...

A major announcement will come for downtown within the next 30 days. Whether it is the unnanmed 100,000 sq. ft tenant or the Main Street CVS is not being said. Or it could be another project that has flown under the radar...

I am not really sure how to read this one. Why add the last phrase if it is not the true one, and why throw in the first two if neither is what is expected? Is he saying he doesn't know which one will be announced (in which case the last one must be a possibility (meaning there is in fact a major announcement that has flown under the radar) otherwise it wouldn't be listed), or that these 3 projects are the particular ones that the announcement will be one of; or is he saying "it is not generally known" which one, or is he purely speculating on all 3 (thus implying that there could be other possibilities out there as well)?

[vicupstate]

Someone in the know must have said " a big announcement is coming but I can't say what". Knowing that it could be CVS or Clemson, he included those, but included the 'under the radar' to cover it, if it is ANYTHING else.

[distortedlogic]

Then that would mean he himself does not even know what the announcement is going to be. But hasn't the Clemson tie in with the 100k sq ft already been unoffically announced? Why put a TBA for an announcement that has already come out, officially or unofficially? And IMO, a CVS would not be a "major announcement for DT." Perhaps a "nice announcement for a street corner," but come on, "a major announcement for DT"? That seems like a hugh overstatement for that type of thing; ie a CVS and the Washington Sq tennant announcement should not be analogized (IMO!).

[gman430]

Then that would mean he himself does not even know what the announcement is going to be. But hasn't the Clemson tie in with the 100k sq ft already been unoffically announced? Why put a TBA for an announcement that has already come out, officially or unofficially?

Because Clemson has not formally announced that they are locating in Washington Square yet. The Clemson thing was leaked not announced.

[Greenville]

Because Clemson has not formally announced that they are locating in Washington Square yet. The Clemson thing was leaked not announced.

My guess is that this announcement will be Clemson locating its MBA program in Washington Square. Hopefully we will hear more about Washington Square too - if not in conjunction with this announcement, then soon. I am optimistic that this will mean construction begins sooner, although I know that they are pondering a redesign.

[gman430]

My guess is that this announcement will be Clemson locating its MBA program in Washington Square. Hopefully we will hear more about Washington Square too - if not in conjunction with this announcement, then soon. I am optimistic that this will mean construction begins sooner, although I know that they are pondering a redesign.

The city has asked several architectural firms to make designs for this mixed use complex. I highly doubt you'll see Washington Square built like what the current renderings show. The only way is if that design is better than the new ones, which I highly doubt it will be.

[Greenville]

The city has asked several architectural firms to make designs for this mixed use complex. I highly doubt you'll see Washington Square built like what the current renderings show. The only way is if that design is better than the new ones, which I highly doubt it will be.

Hopefully they will still have a couple of highrises as part of it. I know they don't want to ignore street-level retail and a pedestrian-friendly development, but we could really use some height there. It will be disappointing if it is changed to some boring midrise buildings, but I suppose even that would be better than what is there now.