55 West

[Dale]

Why all this stagnancy lately??? In the beginning of the year, it seemed as if a new highrise was being "proposed" every week. Now, here we are, at the end of 2005, and the only progress I've seen is The Plaza and The Vue (which are both, thankfully, coming along nicely). No, I didn't forget the other LowRise projects (Sanctuary, Fed courthouse, FAMU, etc).

I guess I'm just impatient. However, it seems Jax & Miami are getting their highrises much more quickly than we are.

I'm impatient too, but: (1) highrises were not announced every week the past year (2) we've got more going on than Jax (3) there is time and there is 'developer's time'.

[Tim3167]

Just curious - how many 300'+ projects are actually under construction currently in Jacksonville? I promise that's not a statement question...I really AM curious. I have no idea.

Besides under construction how many 300'+ proposed?

[Dale]

Also, to bring South florida into the equation, in my recent drive down US1 from south of downtown WPB to FTL, I saw very little evidence of a boom.

We stack up very well when you consider that we should have a dozen or more highrises u/c in the next very few months.

[orlandonative]

Why all this stagnancy lately??? In the beginning of the year, it seemed as if a new highrise was being "proposed" every week. Now, here we are, at the end of 2005, and the only progress I've seen is The Plaza and The Vue (which are both, thankfully, coming along nicely). No, I didn't forget the other LowRise projects (Sanctuary, Fed courthouse, FAMU, etc).

I guess I'm just impatient. However, it seems Jax & Miami are getting their highrises much more quickly than we are.

This stuff ebbs and flows. Once it is announced then you have to fill it. When you announce ten condos at once thats a lot of units that have to be filled at one time. Owners and investors are now going to sit back and take a, "wait and see attitude". Also when you build condos you price the job at least two years before you plan on purchasing your materials. With escalation the way that it is, it's impossible to hold prices for more than 90 days on anything. If all of that wasn't enough there is a huge shortage of subcontractors to provide the work, even if you can afford it. The good news is that the commercial construction market is now starting to pick up. Its now moving slowly from 90% residential 10% office to just the opposite. Although it makes for some down time currently, in the long run they end up getting built faster because their easier to finance.

Edited November 3, 2005 by orlandonative

[prahaboheme]

I actually prefer midrise projects. Call me strange but I'll take 10 midrise/infill projects to a 400 footer anyday. I think we are doing just fine.

[Dale]

Just curious - how many 300'+ projects are actually under construction currently in Jacksonville? I promise that's not a statement question...I really AM curious. I have no idea.

Besides under construction how many 300'+ proposed?

Just two u/c, I believe. Not to slam Jax of course.

And probably 6 or 7 proposed.

[DelGreco]

Just curious - how many 300'+ projects are actually under construction currently in Jacksonville? I promise that's not a statement question...I really AM curious. I have no idea.

Besides under construction how many 300'+ proposed?

I don't know about Jacksonville but I certainly wouldn't want to compare it to Orlando. Orlando should strive to become a mini-Toronto! Take a look at what a real Metropolis is like:

The list is for buildings greater than 400 feet, or 40 floors or more when height is unknown.

Any Questions?

---------------------------

Toronto's 400ft and up list

Sapphire Tower - 1,122 ft spire (1,030 ft. roof) 88 floors

---------1,100 ft---------

Trump International - 1,064 ft. spire (988 ft. roof) 70 floors

---------1,000 ft---------

First Canadian Place - 978 ft. 72 floors

Scotia Plaza - 902 ft. 68 floors

----------900 ft----------

Canada Trust Tower [bCE Place] - 856 ft. 53 floors

----------800 ft----------

Bay-Adelaide Centre West Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - 797 ft. 62 floors

Commerce Court West [Commerce Court] - 784 ft. 57 floors

Toronto Dominion Bank Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 731 ft. 56 floors

1 Bloor East - 718 ft. 60 floors

Signature Tower [CityPlace] - 714 ft. 69 floors

----------700 ft----------

Shangri-La - 686 ft. 65 floors

Ritz Carlton Hotel [simcoe Place] - 684 ft. 53 floors

Bay Wellington Tower [bCE Place] - 679 ft. 49 floors

Four Seasons Hotel [Four Seasons] - 672 ft. 55 floors

Wellington Square [simcoe Place] - HEIGHT NEEDED 48 floors

Bay-Adelaide Centre East Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - HEIGHT NEEDED 53 floors

ROM Tower [Royal Ontario Museum] - 648 ft. 40 floors

City Centre Tower [Hummingbird Centre] - 619 ft. 50 floors

Royal Trust Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 600 ft. 46 floors

----------600 ft----------

Richmond-Adelaide Centre [Richmond-Adelaide Centre] - 595 ft. 41 floors

Royal Bank Plaza South [Royal Bank Plaza] - 591 ft. 40 floors

1 King West - 578 ft. 51 floors

MLSE Tower I [MLSE Complex] - 558 ft. 53 floors

151 Front Street West - 549 ft. 36 floors

44 Charles Street West [Manulife Centre] - 545 ft. 51 floors

Bay-Adelaide Centre North Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - 531 ft. 49 floors

MLSE Tower II [MLSE Complex] - 529 ft. 49 floors

Quantum II [Minto Midtown] - 525 ft. 52 floors

One City Hall Phase II [One City Hall Condominiums] - HEIGHT NEEDED 50 floors

The Uptown Residences - 518 ft. 48 floors

Festival Tower - 514 ft. 42 floors

College Park Tower I [RoCP] - 505 ft. 52 floors

*Parkside Village - Tower I [Parkside Village] - 505 ft. 50 floors

79 Wellington Street West [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 504 ft. 39 floors

Harbour View Estates II [CityPlace] - 503 ft. 49 floors

Exchange Tower - 502 ft. 36 floors

----------500 ft----------

The 250 [Eaton Centre] - 494 ft. 35 floors

Two Bloor West - 488 ft. 34 floors

Bank of America Tower [simcoe Place] - 486 ft. 33 floors

West ONE [CityPlace] - 484 ft. 49 floors

Montage [CityPlace] - HEIGHT NEEDED 47 floors

Parkway Forest I [Parkway Forest] - 479 ft. 48 floors

Commerce Court North [Commerce Court] - 476 ft. 34 floors

Spire - 476 ft. 45 floors

Simpson Tower - 472 ft. 33 floors

Cadillac Fairview Tower [Eaton Centre] - 466 ft. 36 floors

Murano Tower I [The Murano] - 459 ft. 41 floors

Pantages Tower [Pantages Place] - 458 ft. 46 floors

*Parkside Village - Tower II [Parkside Village] - 456 ft. 45 floors

*Parkside Village - Tower III [Parkside Village] - 456 ft. 45 floors

Palace Place [The Palace Pier] - 453 ft. 46 floors

Palace Pier [The Palace Pier] - 453 ft. 46 floors

College Park Tower II [RoCP] - HEIGHT NEEDED - 45 floors

Casa - 453 ft. 43 floors

Continental Bank of Canada Building [Richmond-Adelaide Centre] - 449 ft. 33 floors

18 York Street - 449 ft. 37 floors

Pinnacle Building C [Pinnacle Centre] - 449 ft. 46 floors

Sheraton Centre Hotel [sheraton Centre] - 443 ft. 43 floors

Two Bloor East [Hudson's Bay Centre] - 439 ft. 34 floors

Ernst & Young Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 437 ft. 31 floors

The MET Phase I [The Met Condos] - 431 ft. 43 floors

Empire Tower [NY Towers] - 427 ft. 28 floors

One Financial Place - 424 ft. 31 floors

Leaside Towers II [Leaside Towers] - 423 ft. 44 floors

Leaside Towers I [Leaside Towers] - 423 ft. 44 floors

590 Jarvis - 423 ft. 41 floors

Canadian Pacific Tower [Toronto Dominion Centre] - 420 ft. 32 floors

Metro Hall West [Metro Hall] - 420 ft. 27 floors

Parkway Forest II [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

Parkway Forest IV [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

Parkway Forest V [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

Marriott Hotel/Plaza 2 Apartments [Hudson's Bay Centre] - 415 ft. 41 floors

Sun Life Centre East Tower [sun Life Centre] - 410 ft. 28 floors

N1 [CityPlace] - 410 ft. 42 floors

Four Seasons Tower II [Four Seasons] - 410 ft. 30 floors

Pinnacle Building A [Pinnacle Centre] - HEIGHT NEEDED - 41 floors

Yonge Eglinton Centre I [Yonge Eglinton Centre] - 408 ft. 30 floors

Royal York Hotel - 407 ft. 28 floors

Harbour View Estates I [CityPlace] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

Number One York Quay South Tower [Harbour Square] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

*Parkside Village - Tower IV [Parkside Village] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

*Parkside Village - Tower V [Parkside Village] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

---------------------------

Status of Projects

Built

1) First Canadian Place - 978 ft. 72 floors

2) Scotia Plaza - 902 ft. 68 floors

3) Canada Trust Tower [bCE Place] - 856 ft. 53 floors

4) Commerce Court West [Commerce Court] - 784 ft. 57 floors

5) Toronto Dominion Bank Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 731 ft. 56 floors

6) Bay Wellington Tower [bCE Place] - 679 ft. 49 floors

7) Royal Trust Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 600 ft. 46 floors

8) Royal Bank Plaza South [Royal Bank Plaza] - 591 ft. 40 floors

9) 1 King West - 578 ft. 51 floors

10) 44 Charles Street West [Manulife Centre] - 545 ft. 51 floors

11) 79 Wellington Street West [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 504 ft. 39 floors

12) Harbour View Estates II [CityPlace] - 503 ft. - 49 floors

13) Exchange Tower - 502 ft. 36 floors

14) The 250 [Eaton Centre] - 494 ft. 35 floors

15) Two Bloor West - 488 ft. 34 floors

16) Bank of America Tower [simcoe Place] - 486 ft. 33 floors

17) Commerce Court North [Commerce Court] - 476 ft. 34 floors

18) Simpson Tower - 472 ft. 33 floors

19) Cadillac Fairview Tower [Eaton Centre] - 466 ft. 36 floors

20) Pantages Tower [Pantages Place] - 458 ft. 46 floors

21) Palace Place [The Palace Pier] - 453 ft. 46 floors

22) Palace Pier [The Palace Pier] - 453 ft. 46 floors

23) Continental Bank of Canada Building [Richmond-Adelaide Centre] - 449 ft. 33 floors

24) Sheraton Centre Hotel [sheraton Centre] - 443 ft. 43 floors

25) Two Bloor East [Hudson's Bay Centre] - 439 ft. 34 floors

26) Ernst & Young Tower [Toronto-Dominion Centre] - 437 ft. 31 floors

27) Empire Tower [NY Towers] - 427 ft. 28 floors

28) One Financial Place - 424 ft. 31 floors

29) Leaside Towers II [Leaside Towers] - 423 ft. 44 floors

30) Leaside Towers I [Leaside Towers] - 423 ft. 44 floors

31) Canadian Pacific Tower [Toronto Dominion Centre] - 420 ft. 32 floors

32) Metro Hall West [Metro Hall] - 420 ft. 27 floors

33) Marriott Hotel/Plaza 2 Apartments [Hudson's Bay Centre] - 415 ft. 41 floors

34) Sun Life Centre East Tower [sun Life Centre] - 410 ft. 28 floors

35) Yonge Eglinton Centre I [Yonge Eglinton Centre] - 408 ft. 30 floors

36) Royal York Hotel - 407 ft. 28 floors

37) Number One York Quay South Tower [Harbour Square] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

38) Harbour View Estates I [CityPlace] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

Buildings Under Construction

1) College Park Tower I [RoCP] - 505 ft. 52 floors

2) West ONE [CityPlace] - 484 ft. 49 floors

3) Spire - 476 ft. 45 floors

4) Murano Tower I [The Murano] - 459 ft. 41 floors

5) College Park Tower II [RoCP] - HEIGHT NEEDED - 45 floors

6) The MET Phase I [The Met Condos] - 431 ft. 43 floors

7) N1 [CityPlace] - 410 ft. 42 floors

8) Pinnacle Building A [Pinnacle Centre] - HEIGHT NEEDED - 41 floors

Residential &/or Hotel Towers In Sales

1) Sapphire Tower - 1,122 ft spire (1,030 ft. roof) 88 floors

2) Trump International - 1,064 ft. spire (988 ft. roof) 70 floors

3) Ritz Carlton Hotel [simcoe Place] - 684 ft. 53 floors

4) Quantum II [Minto Midtown] - 525 ft. 52 floors

5) The Uptown Residences - 518 ft. 48 floors

6) Montage [CityPlace] - HEIGHT NEEDED 47 floors

7) Casa - 453 ft. 43 floors

Proposed Residential, Residential & Office, Residential & Hotel, or Hotel Towers

1) Bay-Adelaide Centre West Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - 797 ft. 62 floors

2) 1 Bloor East - 718 ft. 60 floors

3) Signature Tower [CityPlace] - 714 ft. 69 floors

4) Shangri-La - 686 ft. 65 floors

5) Four Seasons Hotel [Four Seasons] - 672 ft. 55 floors

6) Bay-Adelaide Centre East Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - HEIGHT NEEDED 53 floors

7) ROM Tower [Royal Ontario Museum] - 648 ft. 40 floors

8) City Centre Tower [Hummingbird Centre] - 619 ft. 50 floors

9) MLSE Tower I [MLSE Complex] - 558 ft. 53 floors

10) Bay-Adelaide Centre North Tower [bay-Adelaide Centre] - 531 ft. 49 floors

11) MLSE Tower II [MLSE Complex] - 529 ft. 49 floors

12) Festival Tower - 514 ft. 42 floors

13) *Parkside Village - Tower I [Parkside Village] - 505 ft. 50 floors

14) One City Hall Phase II [One City Hall Condominiums] - HEIGHT NEEDED 50 floors

15) Parkway Forest I [Parkway Forest] - 479 ft. 48 floors

16) *Parkside Village - Tower II [Parkside Village] - 456 ft. 45 floors

17) *Parkside Village - Tower III [Parkside Village] - 456 ft. 45 floors

18) Pinnacle Building C [Pinnacle Centre] - 449 ft. 46 floors

19) 590 Jarvis - 423 ft. 41 floors

20) Parkway Forest II [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

21) Parkway Forest IV [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

22) Parkway Forest V [Parkway Forest] - 420 ft. 42 floors

23) Four Seasons Tower II [Four Seasons] - 410 ft. 30 floors

24) *Parkside Village - Tower IV [Parkside Village] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

25) *Parkside Village - Tower V [Parkside Village] - HEIGHT NEEDED 40 floors

Proposed Office Towers

1) Wellington Square [simcoe Place] - HEIGHT NEEDED 48 floors

2) Richmond-Adelaide Centre [Richmond-Adelaide Centre] - 595 ft. 41 floors

3) 151 Front Street West - 549 ft. 36 floors

4) 18 York Street - 449 ft. 37 floors

Sub-Totals

Built - 38

Buildings Under Construction - 8

Residential &/or Hotel Towers In Sales - 7

Proposed Residential, Residential & Office, Residential & Hotel, or Hotel Towers - 25

Proposed Office Towers - 4

Grand Total: 82 Orlando can become this, right?!?

[Dale]

Miami can beat it dead.

[orlandonative]

I don't know about Jacksonville but I certainly wouldn't want to compare it to Orlando. Orlando should strive to become a mini-Toronto! Take a look at what a real Metropolis is like:

Any Questions?

Grand Total: 82 Orlando can become this, right?!?

??? Where did that come from? Grant it, thats impressive...but were is the correlation?

Edited November 3, 2005 by orlandonative

[Tim3167]

Oh boy, here we go.......Topic Alert before this goes to far....

[jack]

Just curious - how many 300'+ projects are actually under construction currently in Jacksonville? I promise that's not a statement question...I really AM curious. I have no idea.

Besides under construction how many 300'+ proposed?

I think one, the Pennisula and Strand at St. Johns.

Jax still has a lot of investment. I have never been there, but there downtown looks twice as dense from I-95.

FYI, of the projcts U/C, Jax has $258,547,456 and Orlando has $596,530,000 of investment

[jack]

I am confident in 55 west now. To receive a permit, the developer has to pay all of the impact fees. I am not sure of the exact number, but I believe it is over $6,000. 403 units, do the math

[prahaboheme]

I think one, the Pennisula and Strand at St. Johns.

Jax still has a lot of investment. I have never been there, but there downtown looks twice as dense from I-95.

FYI, of the projcts U/C, Jax has $258,547,456 and Orlando has $596,530,000 of investment

The historic center of JAX is pretty significant. Once they hit a stride (the Kuhn development may likely set a similar precident in JAX as it did in Orlando) we can expect big things there.

[DelGreco]

??? Where did that come from? Grant it, thats impressive...but were is the correlation?

Well, it's motivation I guess. We consider 55 West as massive but it's all relative. We can become a Toronto, one building at a time. But in order to achieve such heights and to attract big time developers like Trump, we need to move west (as in Parramore) where there are no FAA height restrictions. AC-3 land is becoming scarce and the price per sqft is skyrocketing in downtown. In order to satisfy greedy developers and investors such as Trump, we must do away with the 400' limit. I think the price per unit will also be more reasonable if they can add more floors. At $400K-$600K per unit (for less than 1000 sq ft) we are really going far beyond what 90% of the wage earners out there can afford. This means that most of the units will be bought by rich out-of-towners who maybe spend 3 months out of the year in Florida. We we can get the prices down to $200K-$300K per unit, we should be able to get more foot traffic on the streets of downtown much sooner than later. I don't know about you guys but I can't wait another 20 yrs for Orlando to become the Jewel of the South. I want to see it happen in 5-7 yrs.

I predict we will see more and more developers announce major developments in Parramore during the next couple of years. Land is still fairly affordable there and hopefully City Hall will be smart enough to rezone most of it to AC-3 to allow for high rise development.

[orlandonative]

Well, it's motivation I guess. We consider 55 West as massive but it's all relative. We can become a Toronto, one building at a time. But in order to achieve such heights and to attract big time developers like Trump, we need to move west (as in Parramore) where there are no FAA height restrictions. AC-3 land is becoming scarce and the price per sqft is skyrocketing in downtown. In order to satisfy greedy developers and investors such as Trump, we must do away with the 400' limit. I think the price per unit will also be more reasonable if they can add more floors. At $400K-$600K per unit (for less than 1000 sq ft) we are really going far beyond what 90% of the wage earners out there can afford. This means that most of the units will be bought by rich out-of-towners who maybe spend 3 months out of the year in Florida. We we can get the prices down to $200K-$300K per unit, we should be able to get more foot traffic on the streets of downtown much sooner than later. I don't know about you guys but I can't wait another 20 yrs for Orlando to become the Jewel of the South. I want to see it happen in 5-7 yrs.

I predict we will see more and more developers announce major developments in Parramore during the next couple of years. Land is still fairly affordable there and hopefully City Hall will be smart enough to rezone most of it to AC-3 to allow for high rise development.

I dont even know where to begin.

There is plenty of zoned land downtown for high rises. As far as high rise devlopment in Paramore is concerned. It's not right and it certainly will not happen in the next couple of years let alone the next 15, trust me. As far as adding more floors to decrease sq. ft costs. Mathematically it sounds right. The only problem is that the higher you build the more it costs. The higher you buy the more it costs. Also, if the 30 story property next to you is pulling down $400k to start, are you really going to lower your pirces to $200k because you have an 80 story building with a lower break even point per unit? Of course not. As far as Donald Trump goes, TTT has prices that would have been comparable to Ridgley Manor. Look around the CBD of Tampa the closest residential standard is in Channelside. And he is asking way more than what they want over there. Asking for more affordable units and then wishing for Donald Trump in the same sentence makes no sense.

I've got an idea. Lets stop trying to compare our city to any other one than Orlando. Lets stop buying out low income housing at fair market value because we can. Instead, build character. Lift those families up. Help them help the city. Stay realistic and realize that its not all going to be high rises. I love them just as much as the next. In fact, its what puts food on my table, but not at the cost of displacing the very essence of what makes a city great and thats its people. Not just the ones that can afford the glitz, but all of them.

Go Magic!!!

[depechecureguyorl]

I'm impatient too, but: (1) highrises were not announced every week the past year (2) we've got more going on than Jax (3) there is time and there is 'developer's time'.

Hence I said that last year it SEEMED as if highrises were announced every week. Sheesh! I haven't looked at Emporis lately to compare Orl construction w/the rest of Fla, so my earlier viewpoint on Jax & Mia was pretty skewed (also, I had just finished reading in the Jax forum...lots of good news there). anyway...just my impatience getting the best of me.

[DelGreco]

I dont even know where to begin.

As far as high rise devlopment in Paramore is concerned. It's not right and it certainly will not happen in the next couple of years let alone the next 15, trust me.

As far as adding more floors to decrease sq. ft costs. Mathematically it sounds right. The only problem is that the higher you build the more it costs. The higher you buy the more it costs. Also, if the 30 story property next to you is pulling down $400k to start, are you really going to lower your pirces to $200k because you have an 80 story building with a lower break even point per unit?

I've got an idea. Lets stop trying to compare our city to any other one than Orlando. Lets stop buying out low income housing at fair market value because we can. Instead, build character. Lift those families up. Help them help the city. Stay realistic and realize that its not all going to be high rises.

As much as I want to trust you, I can't because it is your opinion only and not everyone is in agreement with you, especially the people that used to live in Parramore and are the owners of any heritage that existed when Parramore was thriving. All these decent and hardworking people were forced to move to Washington Shores and Pine Hills. The city allowed Parramore to deteriorate by allowing industrial uses next to residential....BIG mistake. Now the City has a chance to fix that by rezoning to commercial and mixed-use....including low-income housing.

The next time you find yourself in Parramore get out of your nice car and start walking the streets and look around. What do you see? Drug dealers and users, alcoholics, prostitutes, homeless people and people in general with lack of self esteem and respect for others. There is litter everywhere and the housing consists of slums that rent on a weekly (if not nightly) basis to transients and dealers. DO you think this is worth salvaging? Do you think there is any History in that? Maybe 5% are owner occupied by good folks (mostly elderly). The decent folks who were educated and employed all moved out of Parramore. The City and Police has always known this but know finally they have realized that Downtown Orlando cannot growth and become a destination without cleaning up the west side. The only thing that has any historical value and is worth keeping is the Dr. Well's Afro-American Museum and his home next to it.

Therefore, let's make Parramore a multi-cultural, multi-race, multi-income level community where you find a 1000' highrise standing next to a low income housing project. That's what great cities are made of!

[up+down=midtown]

Miami can beat it dead.

same thing i thought

[firemick]

Del Greco, man you hit the nail on the head. You cannot help those that don't want to help themselves. I know as i run calls in that area all the time. For those that dont , they always have some polyana, pie in the sky idea. Most of the people that live there now, have not been there that long. As for the Coalition for the Homeless, they need to relocate that somewhere down OBT near all the other riff raff. I know , some of you will call me insensitive. But facts are Facts. Go down and give a urban outdoorsman 10 dollars to get something to eat and later you will see him walking around with alcohol. Its not an easy problem. I just get tired of transporting the same people ALL the time to the ER because they are sick of the Coalitions food and fain some illness.

[Dale]

Del Greco, man you hit the nail on the head. You cannot help those that don't want to help themselves. I know as i run calls in that area all the time. For those that dont , they always have some polyana, pie in the sky idea. Most of the people that live there now, have not been there that long. As for the Coalition for the Homeless, they need to relocate that somewhere down OBT near all the other riff raff. I know , some of you will call me insensitive. But facts are Facts. Go down and give a urban outdoorsman 10 dollars to get something to eat and later you will see him walking around with alcohol. Its not an easy problem. I just get tired of transporting the same people ALL the time to the ER because they are sick of the Coalitions food and fain some illness.

Having worked with folks like this before, mick, it's easy to understand your frustration. Keep your chin up. I appreciate your hard work, even if some of the folks you attend to don't.

[firemick]

^^Thanks, i really do have compassion for people otherwise i wouldn't do what i do. However it does get frustrating though. I know there are good people in Parramore, i am just used to meeting the frequent flyers, and the ones that even if you helped them....after awhile they would revert back to thier old ways. Anyway back to the topic at hand. Now 55 West...now thats some project!!!! You know if 34 floors is accurate and we add 20 feet to the 396 feet, I can add it to my "400 club"

Edited November 4, 2005 by firemick

[jack]

I did not realize that 55 West would be taller. I just assumed that they made room for more floors by getting rid of the office space.

And they do not need to rezone Parramore. The main streets are AC/2 wich is good enough for me.

[JRS1]

I agree. Miami will out-pace Toronto- which is a feat in and of itself.

Orlando can't be Toronto w/re to highrises. ever.

screw parramore district. its a feeder for "urban outdoorsmen" in the nicer parts of downtown, which is really getting irritating.

I swear, i'm going to borrow a B&G garbage truck and start hauling human jetsum out of here. no PC here.

Does anyone know the new height of 55W??

[jack]

I agree. Miami will out-pace Toronto- which is a feat in and of itself.

Orlando can't be Toronto w/re to highrises. ever.

screw parramore district. its a feeder for "urban outdoorsmen" in the nicer parts of downtown, which is really getting irritating.

I swear, i'm going to borrow a B&G garbage truck and start hauling human jetsum out of here. no PC here.

Does anyone know the new height of 55W??

Urban outdoorsmen. Is that a nice way for saying homeless? And what is human jetsum anyway? Did you mean jetsam?

[DelGreco]

Del Greco, man you hit the nail on the head. You cannot help those that don't want to help themselves. I know as i run calls in that area all the time. For those that dont , they always have some polyana, pie in the sky idea. Most of the people that live there now, have not been there that long. As for the Coalition for the Homeless, they need to relocate that somewhere down OBT near all the other riff raff. I know , some of you will call me insensitive. But facts are Facts. Go down and give a urban outdoorsman 10 dollars to get something to eat and later you will see him walking around with alcohol. Its not an easy problem. I just get tired of transporting the same people ALL the time to the ER because they are sick of the Coalitions food and fain some illness.

Firemick you are a true hero for what you do! I am very familiar with Parramore and yes there are a few good people there, but not many. For them I think the city will insure low-income housing mixed in with the rest of the commercial development. Folks who think like orlandonative and JRS1 are why a thriving Parramore was allowed to deteriorate over the years. Without developing the west side of I-4 (Parramore), projects like 55 West will have difficulty providing security for pedestrians. The harassing from homeless and drug pushers will continue. That is why the west side (at least as far west as Westmoreland Ave needs to be cleaned up and developed via strategic rezoning).

Parramore has become a transient community and there is no History or Tradition here to keep. It is ripe for development and that is why Dyer is focusing on it. The east side development is in auto-pilot and doesn't need any assistance. Development there will continue based on demand.