Growth: Southwood

[josefk]

The First District Court of Appeal building isn't a civic building in the sense that a County Courthouse or City Hall would be. Many of the attorneys who appear before a district court travel from other places to argue cases before the court. Members of the public rarely attend oral arguments before the DCAs. In some places, the DCAs meet outside courtroom settings; for example, a DCA meets routinely at Stetson law school in St. Pete. Arguably, the Southwood 1st DCA building is more convenient to the airport via Cap Circle, and will have better parking and security that is possible at the existing location. There's little reason for members of the public to have any need to be in the DCA building unless they have nothing better to do than watch appellate layers argue cases.

[fivesfella]

Well Southwood isn't a suburb, its a neighborhood on the periphery of Tallahassee. There are not courthouses in the Bradfordville, Killearn, Miccosukee, Lake Jackson, Fort Braden, or Woodville areas. I see the presence of a Civic Building in an area such as Southwood, which is already calling itself "a St. Joe Town", a threat to Tallahassee's status as the only incorporated municipality in Leon County. It may not be publicly spoken now, but what if Southwood's Residents decide to break away from the City of Tallahassee and form their own Municipal government? The tax dollars we've invested in infrastructure for that area, schools, roads, utilities, and so forth will all go to benefit a new government. I have no problem with Southwood's commercial development -- actually I love it! But it's the movement of Government Jobs, and civic buildings away from downtown that concerns me.

[Florida]

I see your concerns, but there are already government offices and buildings scattered all over town. Blairstone's full of them, for instance.

[poonther]

Sure there are. My concern is with the fact that Southwood's developer has a knack for trying to incorporate communities, other areas of town are Tallahassee pure and simple.

[jpl02]

BTW: two people on my street work at DCA. It will be interesting to see if they move once their jobs move out to the 'burbs.

[Go Gators]

Is Celebration an incorporated city? However they really aren't a St. Joe Development.

So I don't really see a St. Joe trend to make their communities into incorporated cities, but you may know something I don't.

BTW: two people on my street work at DCA. It will be interesting to see if they move once their jobs move out to the 'burbs.

[poonther]

Ha ha Poonther! I also work at DCA and I live in your neighborhood. Isn't it funny how I live in the city center yet work out in the 'burbs? Traffic works in my favor...........everyone goes downtown in the morning, while I leave

[SouthwoodResident]

Well Southwood isn't a suburb, its a neighborhood on the periphery of Tallahassee. There are not courthouses in the Bradfordville, Killearn, Miccosukee, Lake Jackson, Fort Braden, or Woodville areas. I see the presence of a Civic Building in an area such as Southwood, which is already calling itself "a St. Joe Town", a threat to Tallahassee's status as the only incorporated municipality in Leon County. It may not be publicly spoken now, but what if Southwood's Residents decide to break away from the City of Tallahassee and form their own Municipal government? The tax dollars we've invested in infrastructure for that area, schools, roads, utilities, and so forth will all go to benefit a new government. I have no problem with Southwood's commercial development -- actually I love it! But it's the movement of Government Jobs, and civic buildings away from downtown that concerns me.

[SouthwoodResident]

I understand your point SouthwoodResident, but have to disagree b/c in my opinion, that logic could be used to move any one of a number of other buildings out of the downtown area. To me, it isn't about the convenience of access to the out-of-town attorneys appearing before the court- it's about the convenience of the judges, administrators, staff and law clerks that are the lifeblood of the DCA (they all live in Tallahassee) ....

[Go Gators]

^ Interesting points you make. Thanks.

[poonther]

People are allowed to live where they want to live. Businesses go where there are customers. I doubt many of the DCA judges, administrators, or professional staff are living within a mile of the downtown DCA building, even though it might be more convenient, at least until it came time to buy groceries. As for the FSU law students clerking there, I would guess that is a very small number of students who will be inconvenienced. There are FSU students in intern positions in various parts of town and they seem to manage to make it work.

[TD]

SWResident, Your posts seem so negative... Why do you stay here if you dont like Tallahassee and its policy?

[Go Gators]

SWResident, Your posts seem so negative... Why do you stay here if you dont like Tallahassee and its policy?

[TD]

I had a feeling you'd respond like that. It's a differing opinion. Telling someone to leave if they dont like it is immature.

[south park county]

C'mon now TD. SouthWoodResident didn't write all that just to hate on Tallahassee. What he is saying is very legitimate and interesting. The purpose of this board is to speak your mind and he did a great job.

[Go Gators]

Well that's fine. And thanks for continuing to make my point for me.

[poonther]

Come on folks, let's please stick to the points of the threads and agreeing or disagreeing w/what is said. Let's not make it personal about each other b/c if we do that, well then we've just dissolved into my most hated place in all of Tally................the Democrat Chat Boards!

[josefk]

And some of them live in Southwood. Southwood is in Tallahassee. I live in Southwood and work downtown. It takes me about 15 minutes to get from my front door to my office. Before I moved to Southwood, I lived in Killearn Estates (which is closer than Killearn Lakes, Golden Eagle, etc.) and getting to work took 30-40 minutes to get to the same job downtown. People in Tallahassee act like Southwood is a million miles from downtown. It's closer to town than just about every subdivision built in Tallahassee in the last 25 years.

I know some people are unhappy with the shift of commercial/residential activities away from downtown. People were unhappy when the Northwood Mall was built and stores left downtown to move there. And then the Tallahassee Mall. And then Killearn Estates. And then Governor's Square. And as much as the city moaned about it, they did nothing to make it hospitable for business or residents to remain downtown. Streets were blocked or turned into one-way speedways with limited parking. Professional offices pushed out retailers who were dying because customers weren't there anymore. The parking situation in the actual core of Tallahassee was intolerable for years, and it's not much better now. (The Kleman plaza garage is frankly a mess. I've parked there a number of times, and it routinely looks like a garbage truck exploded inside.) It's just the typical progression of a small town's downtown. Were it not for the state government making it at least appear that there was something going on in downtown Tallahassee, it would look like Havana by now (Florida, not Cuba.)

People are allowed to live where they want to live. Businesses go where there are customers. I doubt many of the DCA judges, administrators, or professional staff are living within a mile of the downtown DCA building, even though it might be more convenient, at least until it came time to buy groceries. As for the FSU law students clerking there, I would guess that is a very small number of students who will be inconvenienced. There are FSU students in intern positions in various parts of town and they seem to manage to make it work.

[TD]

I understand your points SR, but they still don't address my (and others) desire to keep the judiciary centralized downtown or the benefits to the law school that I mentioned. With respect to the convenience issues that you originally brought up, and which were addressing the convenience of out of town attorneys, etc. and the proximity to the airport- my point was directed more at the fact that (aside from the judges), there probably aren't many other staff/administrators or other employees that can afford to live in Southwood, and that while many of them may not live within walking distance of the old DCA right now, at least there are some nearby options to do so as Poonther mentioned. Finally, when I referenced clerks, it is important to note that these are not FSU law students we're talking about, but recent law school graduates from many different law schools/cities with very impressive credentials and are just the type of creative people that we need in the downtown area to rejuvinate and enliven it- if we're going to have these young, brilliant aspiring professionals, professors, etc. in our midst early on in their legal careers, I'd prefer to have them trying to find places to live, eat and drink downtown in the urban core so that perhaps they'll consider staying in Tallahassee once their clerking stint is over. Once again, I respect you opinions SR, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the DCA issue.

As for the other business relocation issues you raise, I haven't been in Tallahassee nearly as long as you have so I can't really comment on the frustration and lack of activity that you describe- I know that I've heard it from many others as well though. In any event, I do think some of the comparisons were a bit overstated ("typical progression of a small town's downtown"), and I can only say that I think we do have some new leadership in Tallahassee (Commissioners Dailey and Desloge, for instance) taking root that (notwithstanding the difficult financial times we're in) is actively working to move us in the right direction. I just hope that they can convince some of the non-believers to jump on board as the train starts to move a little further away from the station.....

[Florida]

SWR, that was a very thorough and sharp response. You're right, the state has had a history of scattering its operations throughout the city. The building I currently work in for example, the one you referred to as the Old DNR (Natural Resources) which is now Department of Environmental Protection, first housed a financial/insurance company. And the complex the state occupies at W. Tennessee Street and Capital Circle adjacent to Harvey's used to be a shopping center, so too was the Northwood Mall Complex. I mention these to note that the state has made a choice to flee the downtown area often to rescue distressed areas of town and occupy otherwise under utilized space, often helping to sustain or revitalize certain parts of the city.

The movement toward Southwood away from facilities downtown, simply doesn't make good financial sense if I'm allowed to be as frank as you. At a time when we desire to diversify the makeup of downtown and save the taxpayer some money, it does no good to remove the Government employees and "hope" that a developer comes eyeing large empty state buildings for a new project - while tax payers spend millions building NEW buildings elsewhere.

Private money often follows Public money, consequently the best example of this in Tallahassee is Southwood. I don't know if I can speak for everyone here, but it is actually my desire to see more towers downtown, filled with people doing the business of the state than build more sprawling 300,000 sq.ft. low rise plain box buildings all over the place. Keeping the jobs downtown building more towers may infact lure private investors and companies to plug in a dollar or two into building a tower of their own, or perhaps intise a restaurant or store to locate nearby.

It's one thing to address the need for more parking, and better transportation through the downtown, its another thing to remove the people who make up our BIG industry from it -- which is what the state continues to do when it vacates property downtown in favor of relocating to Southwood. Sounds like we agree on the fact that the state has been in the business of moving jobs away from downtown for quite a while, seems we disagree on wether or not it should be perpetual. I think enough damage has been done to our downtown. It's now time for other parts of town to give back.

[SouthwoodResident]

SWResident, Your posts seem so negative... Why do you stay here if you dont like Tallahassee and its policy?

[SouthwoodResident]

SWR

The movement toward Southwood away from facilities downtown, simply doesn't make good financial sense if I'm allowed to be as frank as you. At a time when we desire to diversify the makeup of downtown and save the taxpayer some money, it does no good to remove the Government employees and "hope" that a developer comes eyeing large empty state buildings for a new project - while tax payers spend millions building NEW buildings elsewhere.

Private money often follows Public money, consequently the best example of this in Tallahassee is Southwood. I don't know if I can speak for everyone here, but it is actually my desire to see more towers downtown, filled with people doing the business of the state than build more sprawling 300,000 sq.ft. low rise plain box buildings all over the place. Keeping the jobs downtown building more towers may infact lure private investors and companies to plug in a dollar or two into building a tower of their own, or perhaps intise a restaurant or store to locate nearby.

It's one thing to address the need for more parking, and better transportation through the downtown, its another thing to remove the people who make up our BIG industry from it -- which is what the state continues to do when it vacates property downtown in favor of relocating to Southwood. Sounds like we agree on the fact that the state has been in the business of moving jobs away from downtown for quite a while, seems we disagree on wether or not it should be perpetual....

[csmurphy8885]

We really do grow in spurts... It may seem like a lull now, but it will turn around.

Building more state space at SW saddens me for the same reasons FL mentioned. I really dont think that we will just vacate all the sprawling buildings around town to recharge DT... But a change in attitude could place any more growth DT instead of at satellite complexes all over town. That is my opinion, a simple change in opinion. "Warm bodies" are priceless pawn's! It would be worth it to improve our core. Intising more "things to do" and "Places to spend our moneys."

I still don't see a Court House anywhere outside of DT... Not SW... not Killearn..

[stjoe]

"as much as you'd like to see a vibrant downtown (and frankly so would I) it's not going to happen anytime soon. "

I think most folks issue is they want to see the big city type of downtown.

Southwood isn't preventing that. As I have said many times before....it takes private industry to give the posters on this board what they want. You will never get the amenities and downtown type of atmosphere with govt like you are hoping.

If Tally would do more than worry about state job and consider it an opportunity. State jobs are moving away from downtown. That is a done deal...more or less. Maybe the empty buildings downtown could be used to attract industry.

It takes ideas and ambition.....but Tally too often just laments and holds on dearly to state jobs and that is not a winning receipe.

[TD]

"as much as you'd like to see a vibrant downtown (and frankly so would I) it's not going to happen anytime soon. "

I think most folks issue is they want to see the big city type of downtown.

Southwood isn't preventing that. As I have said many times before....it takes private industry to give the posters on this board what they want. You will never get the amenities and downtown type of atmosphere with govt like you are hoping.

If Tally would do more than worry about state job and consider it an opportunity. State jobs are moving away from downtown. That is a done deal...more or less. Maybe the empty buildings downtown could be used to attract industry.

It takes ideas and ambition.....but Tally too often just laments and holds on dearly to state jobs and that is not a winning receipe.