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Haydon Burns RFP Thread


bobliocatt

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OLD MAIN LIBRARY: Reverse decision to raze building

The recent city decision to raze the existing old Main Library, in favor of a private new building that appears to lack any positive attributes toward the architectural character of the downtown area, should be reversed.

This political approach has been used before, circa 1983. The political front of the times had the bright idea that the Dockmasters Pavilion in Friendship Park should be leveled to the high-water mark to make room for a private restaurant.

No one seemed to notice that 2 acres of riverfront public park were being traded in to create the new vision. So, in favor of a tired toad of a cafe, which has failed about 12 times, the Dockmasters icon was demolished, forever.

The public-to-private game on this one still confounds me. How a private developer swipes 2 acres of riverfront public park to create a profoundly bad cafe is one for investigation, indeed.

The Dockmasters Pavilion was designed by architect Taylor Hardwick in 1965. He also, the same year, designed the state-of-the-art Main Library.

We all recently learned that the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission has now decided the fate of the library. The same 1983 school of public-to-private work is still intact. Here we go once more: a huge public loss in favor of highly dubious private enterprise.

The idea that a suburban postmodern nightmare would replace excellent work suggests that the political process needs sharp realignment, as well as a mandated criteria beyond economics and limited review.

The Disney-Mediterranean tripe illustrated in recent news stories will add zero to the downtown fabric. It will only stand as a tribute to a bad decision in 2005, as well as the creation of a new icon of schizophrenic design. How many disparate elements can be attached to a facade?

Where is the Historic Preservation Board on this? The architectural community? The downtown review board? Principle and aesthetics alone should unhinge this unpopular decision, and I think there are technical problems as well.

Did the chosen applicant modify the proposal during the review process? If the land is valued at $2.2 million without the building, why would the applicant offer $5 million? I think these are important questions, among many others, for the City Council to investigate.

So in favor of principle, architecture, aesthetics and common sense, we urge the City Council to act today and help maintain a diverse and historic fabric consistent with great places all over the world.

We need this building, which has infinite and lasting potential as a landmark in our community.

MICHAEL DUNLAP, architect, Jacksonville

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19253175.shtml.

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OLD MAIN LIBRARY: Reverse decision to raze building

The recent city decision to raze the existing old Main Library, in favor of a private new building that appears to lack any positive attributes toward the architectural character of the downtown area, should be reversed.

This political approach has been used before, circa 1983. The political front of the times had the bright idea that the Dockmasters Pavilion in Friendship Park should be leveled to the high-water mark to make room for a private restaurant.

No one seemed to notice that 2 acres of riverfront public park were being traded in to create the new vision. So, in favor of a tired toad of a cafe, which has failed about 12 times, the Dockmasters icon was demolished, forever.

The public-to-private game on this one still confounds me. How a private developer swipes 2 acres of riverfront public park to create a profoundly bad cafe is one for investigation, indeed.

The Dockmasters Pavilion was designed by architect Taylor Hardwick in 1965. He also, the same year, designed the state-of-the-art Main Library.

We all recently learned that the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission has now decided the fate of the library. The same 1983 school of public-to-private work is still intact. Here we go once more: a huge public loss in favor of highly dubious private enterprise.

The idea that a suburban postmodern nightmare would replace excellent work suggests that the political process needs sharp realignment, as well as a mandated criteria beyond economics and limited review.

The Disney-Mediterranean tripe illustrated in recent news stories will add zero to the downtown fabric. It will only stand as a tribute to a bad decision in 2005, as well as the creation of a new icon of schizophrenic design. How many disparate elements can be attached to a facade?

Where is the Historic Preservation Board on this? The architectural community? The downtown review board? Principle and aesthetics alone should unhinge this unpopular decision, and I think there are technical problems as well.

Did the chosen applicant modify the proposal during the review process? If the land is valued at $2.2 million without the building, why would the applicant offer $5 million? I think these are important questions, among many others, for the City Council to investigate.

So in favor of principle, architecture, aesthetics and common sense, we urge the City Council to act today and help maintain a diverse and historic fabric consistent with great places all over the world.

We need this building, which has infinite and lasting potential as a landmark in our community.

MICHAEL DUNLAP, architect, Jacksonville

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19253175.shtml.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well. he obviously doesn't like the design.. and is a fan of Harwick. :rofl:

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His letter doesnt even make sense. He compares the Harbormasters deal (which gave a portion of a bizarre, Harwick-designed park to a private entity for a restaurant to the Haydon Burns Library deal. For one thing, with the library, ALL the proposals involve selling or giving the public building to a private developer. The only question is how much are they willing to pay and what do they intend to do with it?

we urge the City Council to act today and help maintain a diverse and historic fabric consistent with great places all over the world.

First of all, who is we? One guy signed this. Secondly, I have been to "great places all over the world" such as New York, Chicago, London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Prague, etc. and have never seen architecture this bad in those cities. I really just dont get the preservation argument here. And, since when did ugly buildings from the 1960s become "historic"??

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^ I agree. That letter was just plain strange. He's clearly bitter about stuff well beyond the library debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure why, this topic does stir such emotion on all sides. It can't be just a difference of opinions over architectural style?? I'm clearly behind the demo and re-development by Atkins, but why doesn't this Mayor take the opportunity to get a political victory and make it a win/win for everyone. There is enough city owned sites downtown that he could make the Atkins, Peterbrooke, and Main Branch people all happy!

Everybody has their favorites for a variety of reasons or motivations... think how great it would be for downtown if they could all be addressed !! :huh:

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My concern and head-scratching over this ever depening debate doesn't stem from arguments of architectural style or involved program... more so in where have all of these supporters of the library been for the last 2 years... This isn't the first RFP that has come out looking to demo the building. It's not like this issue just became known last week. Seems like a huge case of too little too late IMO. I have said this several times before and will say it again - being an architect in town, I would like to the see the building "adaptively re-used", I like the prickliness of the building - it definitely generates discussion. However, in favor of a more populous, vibrant, active, and sustainable downtown... if the building needs to go to help that cause... give me a blasting cap and let me help wire it up. I would just like to see some good architecture take it's place - is that too much to ask?

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jaxg8r1:  I think Jenkins is a Democrat and I also believe she dropped her affiliation with the Southern Baptists and joined a more moderate Baptist church.  I do think you could describe her anti-business leanings as liberal.  As to the homeless shelter, who else but naive liberals would propose such a thing.  I use the word "liberal" in these cases because it is this philosophy which leads people to such goofy conclusions like we need a homeless shelter downtown and govt good/business bad.  No offense intended.  I do like your name, by the way.  Go Gators!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, and go Gators :)

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Personally, I believe that first and formost, the city should do what's best for Downtown. If that means saving some historic buildings (like the Carlington & the Laura St. Trio) to give downtown some character, so be it. However, the Library has horrendous street interaction, plus (this is what pisses me off), we demolished the first city hall after the fire to build it!

To me, the Atkins proposal (and to a point, the main branch as well) fills a need in downtown,with things like a theater (Hopefully an IMAX), a grocery store, etc.

Now, we just need a thread here to discuss the nearly $900 million dollar piece of toilet paper Peyton presented last Friday - that thing he calls a budget.

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I am not saying that Peyton is the greatest mayor we have ever had, Far from it, but we also have to keep in mind the strains of being the Mayor of the 13th largest city population wise in the USA. We all critisze him for not doing more for downtwon, and I think he could do more or downtown also, but there are about 20 other zipcodes he has to keep up with other than jsut 32201.

I doubt there are very few of us, myself included, that could deal with all of the pressures of being mayor. The Court house could be veiwed as a failure on his part, but what we seem to forget in cases like that is he was at first saying we need to pay for it if we are going to get it. Only after he was hounded by everyone in BOTH PARTIES did he go "Fine, back to the drawing board" Should he have stuck to his guns? Maybe... but to blame him for everything that goes wrong and saying his budject is crap .. (no offense meant scongro) doesn't realy help. Alot of what he has to deal with he didnt create. We did by moving farther and farther form the core. The Populas did by either being Nimby's or by saying IT HAS TO GO IN MY DITRICT. Politicians did by being subject to too many lobbyist.

Just because we dont agree with someoone doesnt make that person wrong...

It is far too easy to blame they guy at the controls and not see everyone else that is pulling on the wheel, and sometimes that person is ourselves.

Sorry, Not trying to be all philisophical or what have you, I am just sort of tired of everyone railing on those that we tend to forget that WE elected. There is a proper channel for complaints. Weve done that before and even had Lakes comments in the FTU. Go to the public hearings, and meet the mayor meetings. Do something. Doing nothing will only make you more annoyed than before

Anyway, no more soap box...

Cheers

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Josh: Peyton just really isnt a smart guy (I know someone who knew him well when he was younger). He has been riding on his dad's coat tails and using his dad's business acumen as proof that he too is some great businessman (in addition to his dad's money). Why else do you think an unknown candidate was able to win on his first try at elected office? This is perhaps the most annoying thing about him.

Having said that, I have nothing personal against Peyton. I do not know him personally. I am also not his employee like TUC, so I am not partial to him (although I did vote for him). But, I am certain that he bungled the courthouse big time (which will end up costing us millions and result in a worse building) and it does seem that a lot of the downtown progress was stalled during his first 2 years in office. Another example I can cite is the Shipyards project. He cut off the original group, although no one can prove any wrongdoing on their part, and then gave the land to LandMar (who will undoubtably put up some crap based on their pier and park renderings) for a below market price of $7.2 million http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jackso...ml?jst=b_ln_hl). Why was LandMar chosen? Why not a competitive bid? This seems to me to be a poor choice for a cash strapped city. Anyway, these are two of his most glaring mistakes. I just think he is still not quite ready for prime time.

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Vic: I voted for Peyton in the general election. I voted for Carlucci in the primary because I thought he would be best for downtown and Riverside (and I thought he was a real Republican). I did have high hopes for Peyton but was just sorely disappointed.

By the way, on the courthouse issue, I think he likes to play up to the Andy Johnson/Ron Littlepage know nothing crowd who hate all spending of this type and who generally dont like lawyers. Then he can say: "I stood up to the lawyers and the judges". I am for cutting govt spending generally, but not at the expense of the courthouse, which is one of the few things which govt should be doing. I also find it hard to believe that we cant afford this when I hear about the city providing money for downpayments for new homes for people. Since when is that a traditional use of taxpayer dollars?

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I was in the same boat as Riverside, I would have voted for Peyton in the general election (I was a St. Johns County Resident at the time). In the primary, I would have voted for Mike Weinstein.

These last two posts by Riverside and me illustrate why we have Peyton as Mayor. Weinstein and Carlucci both would have been good for Jacksonville, but they ended up splitting the pot. They were very similar candidates. If Carlucci would have dropped out for example, I'd say 80% of his support would have gone to Weinstein.

By the way, I have never mey Peyton in person, so I have no idea how smart he is. However, the impression I get is that he is a few fries short of a Happy Meal, and I say this for basically one reason: People with some sort of intellegence understand that they don't know everything, so when put in a pressure position (like mayor of a large city), they surround themselves with intellegent people. In my opinion, the worst thing for the Peyton administration was when Sam Mousa resigned. Like him or not, he was the only one in the administration with any experience.

For those of you who don't know, Mousa had been involved in city government since the 80's. He knows what it takes to make a city run like a clock. Think about it - during Delaney's administration (8 years), how many large hiccups did we have - very few if any major hiccups. This is not because Delaney is the Einstein of city government. It is because John Delaney knew that he couldn't possibly know everything, so he surrounded himself with people who really knew what they were doing, such as Sam Mousa, and before him, the late Lex Hester, Mousa's predecessor.

I find that in life, truly intellegent people prefer to surround thenselves with other intellegent people, because while they know that they are smart, no one knows everything.

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Excellent point. As a testament to Delaney's success, he is now the president of UNF. He's stirred up controversy because he has more of a vision than previous presidents that seeks to specialize in current strengths. Faculty and staff are upset because they feel their departments are in jeopardy, but it isn't feasible to excel in every discipline. At any rate, tension seems to have subsided and I think in the next decade we'll see UNF become a more integral part of the city. If urban planning was offered, I'd double-major in a heartbeat.

Now back to the topic...

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OLD MAIN LIBRARY

Reject group's decision

I totally agree with architect Michael Dunlap's assessment of the status of the old Main Library.

His main points about preserving Jacksonville's architectural integrity, rather than forever wiping out our past, have sincere merit.

Why live with regrets when it is in our power to live with positive impact? Why destroy when the object in question is perfectly useful and ready for a new life? Why, indeed? Just because a commission relied on a financial column rather than common sense?

Our mayor seems to be trying to balance and preserve Jacksonville's economic status with his budget proposal.

He should use this same theory to preserve our historic past: Reject the recommendation of the commission and award the library to Peterbrooke.

Its proposal offers to keep the building intact, install a museum, cafe, tours, classes, production center and much more to attract Jacksonville residents as well as visitors from all over the country.

Look what Hershey did for Pennsylvania and Ghirardelli for San Francisco. Why should we pass up this great opportunity for our own Bold New City of the South? Surely not because an appointed committee made a bad decision.

Fortunately, it can be rectified before the wrecking ball is in place. Please act now!

BOBBI YOFFEE, artist, Jacksonville

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19271988.shtml

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Riverside...

I agree with you for the most part about Peyton, I jsut wanted topoint out to everyone that the job is extremely hard and that a great deal more goes into this stuff than I am sure we know.

On a personal note, I do agree that he is far from an outstanding mayor...

Lake...

To early to git zissed off so I am just not even going to respond to that one...

(I Hate Dumb People)

Cheers

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Come - I am one of the few who like the building, but this person cannot be seriour.... Peterbrooke... Yes Jacksonville residents will come to it - once, maybe twice. What kind of vision is that? I totally agree that we need to preserve our architectural heritage as much as we can... but consider the building a casualty of war. That happens when growth occurs. I like chocolate, but I don;t think it should occupy that particular corner in our downtown. Put it on the riverfront, make it a public destination along the riverwalk - where you can view our wonderful river while experiencing how chocolate is made.

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well, since this posting was about the library and then turned into the "how much i hate peyton" posting i feel the need to take it on another tangent>>> the fallacy of the lack of street interaction of the old main library. like the new main library says, "come on in!" when i walk down the beautiful (insert sarcasm) Monroe street and am faced with a bland parking garage and the 60 or so feet of brick and precast, i say to myself>>> "now there is some street interaction, i feel like i am almost in the new library, that is if i had x-ray vision and an out-of-body experience!"... i sometimes wonder if on the day the libary opens if they are going to lower the bridge over the moat? i remember skimming over some of the posts and someone mention that Delaney had "vision"?? i mean he was a decent mayor, but vision is not something that i would say is a talent of his, unless of course he happens to be King Arthur. the old library gives us a glass base, as one wlaks by and looks in, you can see the books and people roaming the stacks. what kind of street interaction do you want, clowns? street performers? anyways, look whether you like the old building or you don't, what has to be done is what is best for downtown, a chocolate factory? or condos? which one do you think will work better?????????

and Veruca and Augustus have no say in this one!

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The Peterbrooke bandwagoneers are too busy boasting their personal preference for the chocolatier and are overlooking the true benefit of a neighborhood they probably rarely visit. Peterbrooke is no Hershey or Ghirardelli. The location is not suitable for a touristy chocolate factory that will do nothing more than fizzle out in a couple years. Look at the Whetstone factory in St. Augustine. The factory is in a tourist town and is a fairly popular name in the area and probably conducts 20 or so self guided tours in a weekend. I've been told by Whetstone employees that people don't walk in for the tours (other than the occasional school field trip), they walk in to buy some chocolate.

I am also a supporter of the Adkins proposal. Not because it replaces an eyesore downtown, not because its a pretty structure, but because it meets the necessities of a reviving downtown core. It adds taxable population, offers consistent entertainment venues/destinations, provides a grocery store, and supplys the corner with walkable street interaction. Peterbrooke does none of these, therefore, is not the most suitable option for that particular parcel of land.

If you want to argue that the building should be saved, then the Main Branch proposal is most suitable.

Also, the majority of the Peterbrooke support came from the consistent press coverage which obviously supported the proposal wholeheartedly. Why not lay out the facts of all of the proposals giving the pros and cons of each and letting the people decide what they think is best?

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well, since this posting was about the library and then turned into the "how much i hate peyton" posting i feel the need to take it on another tangent>>>  the fallacy of the lack of street interaction of the old main library.  like the new main library says, "come on in!"  when i walk down the beautiful (insert sarcasm) Monroe street and am faced with a bland parking garage and the 60 or so feet of brick and precast, i say to myself>>> "now there is some street interaction, i feel like i am almost in the new library, that is if i had x-ray vision and an out-of-body experience!"...  i sometimes wonder if on the day the libary opens if they are going to lower the bridge over the moat?  i remember skimming over some of the posts and someone mention that Delaney had "vision"??  i mean he was a decent mayor, but vision is not something that i would say is a talent of his, unless of course he happens to be King Arthur.  the old library gives us a glass base, as one wlaks by and looks in, you can see the books and people roaming the stacks.  what kind of street interaction do you want, clowns?  street performers?  anyways, look whether you like the old building or you don't, what has to be done is what is best for downtown, a chocolate factory?  or condos?  which one do you think will work better?????????

and Veruca and Augustus have no say in this one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other than the mix of uses along Laura Street, I'm not a fan of the new library, as well. Somebody should be thrown in jail for allowing the prison walls to line Duval and Monroe Streets.

As far as the Haydon Burns goes, imo, the only side that adds any life to the street is the corner of Adams and Ocean and the glass wall that lines Adams. The Forysth side was basically ignored for some reason, despite the street being a major commercial corridor during the era the building was constructed.

Imo, given that the building won't be used as a library anymore, anybody wanting to save the building should have attempted to redesign the building at street level, to add to the vitality of downtown. Main Branch attempted to do this, but Peterbrooke wanted to just pressure wash it, patch up some cracks and bring the U-haul trucks in.

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In defense of the new library (which isnt perfect, I agree), I think the architects have to limit the numbers of entrances for security purposes. With a library, you just cant have 6 different entrances b/c the security staff would just cost too much. The only way to have more street interaction would be to incorporate retail into the design of the building and, in my opinion, this would be sort of tacky. The Boston Public Library pictured above is a classic library design and probably one of the nicest in the country yet it doesnt have much street interaction. I guess I am saying that a library should probably be exempted from this requirement as should other government buildings (although few other buildings should).

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Imo, they should have found a way to incorporate the old Rhodes Furniture building into the project. Anyway, its understood, that you'll have a limited amount of openings when the project is a large single use tenant. However, that doesn't mean your only option is to put a flat block long 70' high brick wall. Compared to the Haydon Burns, at least Hardwick, threw in a garden on top of his 8ft high wall along Forysth. It doesn't add much to the street, but I'll admit, its more pleasent then a blank wall. Anyway, what's done is done, so we'll just find a way to live with it and consider this a lessoned learned.

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