Courthouse Fiasco

[asonj23]

I know I'm bringing up a sour topic about the courthouse, but why can we not build a suitable courthouse for $190 million? The Peninsula & Strand's combined price tag is $150 million and consisting of one 36 story and one 28 story tower. Why the apparent disapproval of a courthouse tower?

1.) It would greatly enhance the Jax skyline

2.) Should be able to house ALL of the necessary government services

3.) Take up a fraction of the space (parking included) freeing up acres of prime real estate that could be sold off to support the cost

4.) Possibly even provide a bit of space for lease by govt. related firms again easing the price tag.

5.) The new location will also free up the existing waterfront buildings and once again ease the price tag.

I would bet that with those incentives added to the $190 million, the actual funds available would exceed $300 million giving the city even more cash to make something happen.

Are there any negatives to a signiture tower?? What makes the "White House" design superior??

A LOT could be done in a relatively small amount of time with $190 million clams, get with the picture Peyton and give us something to be proud of.

[mcruder]

That would be cool, Tampa went that route.

[vicupstate]

Since the courthouse issue was raised at the Town Meeting last night, was this question asked?

[merlin]

There are obvious costs that aren't need3ed in the residential towers that are a judicial one. Security is the big one. When designing for a courthouse, the judges and inmates can never cross paths. That means separate stairs and elevators for each. Not to mention public circulation.

There is also the level of finishes...which in a courthouse is going to have to be more than gyp. bd. for maintainability and durability.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see the courthouse as a tower on the skyline. I am not sure you are comparing apples to apples though.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

Also, the Court House Buildings are traditionally built more sturdy and durable than traditional office towers and/or residential towers. Thus you probably will be looking at heavier material needed for building and construction which would justify the need for added security, etc.

It is possible that a, say 40 story tower will probably cost the same or even more than any of the proposed complexes that were/are on the table at present; but who knows? All it takes is prudent foresight, ingenuity, intelligence, and an open mind to select the architect and developer who can pull an office tower off, without a hitch, and keep down cost(s) but still produce such a tower with all of the right security features and construction materials needed for the right and "in code" justice/court house facility.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[JaxInvestor]

if Tampa, and other municipalities, did it, must be possible and at least somewhat economically feasible. maybe there should be one of those focus group committees (that i love so much) put together that could study this idea for about 6 months.

[RiversideGator]

Highrise, lowrise, classical or modern, I think we may not see a new courthouse till mini-mayor leaves office. I think the Judges (and the lawyers on the City Council) have decided to wait till he is out of office, hopefully sooner rather than later, or until the city can afford to devote a more realistic amount to building an appropriate courthouse.

[jjoshjl]

Honostly, Ive gotten so annoyed witht the whole thing I will be happy to see ANY movement on this (so long as it doesnt include keeping the current site)

[asonj23]

Also, the Court House Buildings are traditionally built more sturdy and durable than traditional office towers and/or residential towers. Thus you probably will be looking at heavier material needed for building and construction which would justify the need for added security, etc.

It is possible that a, say 40 story tower will probably cost the same or even more than any of the proposed complexes that were/are on the table at present; but who knows? All it takes is prudent foresight, ingenuity, intelligence, and an open mind to select the architect and developer who can pull an office tower off, without a hitch, and keep down cost(s) but still produce such a tower with all of the right security features and construction materials needed for the right and "in code" justice/court house facility.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

I see your point, but could a 30 story tower be justified? Something along the lines of the Federal Courthouse (which is a good looking building I might add). Was it buit to different standards than that of the county courthouse?

There are obvious costs that aren't need3ed in the residential towers that are a judicial one. Security is the big one. When designing for a courthouse, the judges and inmates can never cross paths. That means separate stairs and elevators for each. Not to mention public circulation.

There is also the level of finishes...which in a courthouse is going to have to be more than gyp. bd. for maintainability and durability.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see the courthouse as a tower on the skyline. I am not sure you are comparing apples to apples though.

My point is that a tower (understanding that a courthouse is built to much more strict guidelines) will take up less space, therefore, freeing up acres of prime real estate. The classical design, which I do prefer, takes up most of the alotted land removing a huge revenue source that would help with the cost. How else would the city drum up more money, raise taxes?

[crazy cuban]

hey, you know what, these all sound like great solutions to the problem... except for one thing... this issue is more poiltical than financial now. The mayor keeps pulling money out of the courthouse budget to pay for the wonderful main library "fortress" and othe BJax projects, that pretty soon there will be nothing left for the courthouse... but on top of that, we have committees>>> one for how the courthouse should be programed and then the city council and then the mayor and then the judges>>> did i forget someone. personally, as a design professional in this city, i wouldn't touch the courthouse with a 10' pole!!!! it would be commiting suicide! of course nothing is going to happen till the next mayorial election, because peyton can come out with his new plan on how to pay for it, and then his opponent can come out with another plan. that's good ol'southern politics!!

of course a tower would be the better option>>> if we have 4 blocks of the city, let's use them wisely>>> vertical courthouse, parking garage, and move the jail there as some brutal concrete windowless behemoth that no one in there right mind would want to be in (no cable tv)>>> and away from the stadium and "entertainment" district....its been done folks, just in cities that think about how they operate... out

[Urban_Legend]

I'm sorry to say that I've washed my hands of the situation. It really darkens my day to think that our "lovely" Bay Street will be haunted by that old courthouse for quite some time....

I agree with R. Gator in that we might have to wait for the next mayor to straighten this out. I'd rather see Peyton concentrate on other, more fruitful downtown projects, like all this Landing hubbub.

[120North]

Is it me, or did all of the BJP budget money just kind of vaporize? Think of all the intersections that didn't get approval to be improved, Thats at least $75,000,000 to $100,000,000. This would be enough to cover the courthouse overruns. I am assuming that these funds are being diverted to other projects that have exceeded their budgets. Is an accounting of the BJP funds available for public review? I sure would want to take a look at it.

It seems like all of the projects were over budget by some amount. Is that poor project or program management or was it the fact that Delaney used a Ouiji Board to determine budgets for the projects. I worked on one whose budget was about half of what it needed to be. Subsequently the project was cancelled.

[asonj23]

It seems like all of the projects were over budget by some amount. Is that poor project or program management or was it the fact that Delaney used a Ouiji Board to determine budgets for the projects. I worked on one whose budget was about half of what it needed to be. Subsequently the project was cancelled.

Material costs have wreaked havoc on the BJP projects. Road projects are very hard to estimate because they take so long to complete. By the time they are finished the costs for the same materials may have doubled in some cases. If all of the proposed projects were started and completed in 2000 I would think that only a few may have been over budget. I'm sure, however, that there is some faulty planning tied into overruns as well.

[merlin]

By the time they are finished the costs for the same materials may have doubled in some cases.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

try quadrupled or quintupled... especially in the case of steel and concrete... both of which are major materials in roadway construction.

[up+down=midtown]

i must say a courthouse cost a crapload of alot more money than a res.tower we just finished are 15 story or was it 13 story federal courthouse and i believe it costed alteast 110million..ofcourse it was one of the most advanced and was all glass so that skyrocketed the price....i would love to see jacksonville take the same step and build a new courthouse..but whatever you build must be able to withstand time and be an iconic building

[RiversideGator]

Is that the new Miami Fed Courthouse??

[asonj23]

i must say a courthouse cost a crapload of alot more money than a res.tower we just finished are 15 story or was it 13 story federal courthouse and i believe it costed alteast 110million..ofcourse it was one of the most advanced and was all glass so that skyrocketed the price....i would love to see jacksonville take the same step and build a new courthouse..but whatever you build must be able to withstand time and be an iconic building

A courthouse like the one pictured is what I'm talking about. I use the word "tower" loosely in that I would like to see something 10 floors or more.

And you say that building cost about $110 million? If that is the case, $190 million should be more than sufficient.

try quadrupled or quintupled... especially in the case of steel and concrete... both of which are major materials in roadway construction.

Man, I didn't realize material costs were going up so much. No wonder none of these recent projects are on budget.

[merlin]

Don't forget also, that the courthouse programmed for Jacksonville is more than 900,000 s.f. of stuff. How many s.f was the miami federal?if you look at cost of 110 mil. that is about $100.00/s.f..... courthouse aint happenin for that. and that is just building cost, not to mention all of the soft costs, fees, etc.

[jjoshjl]

I dont personally see how 90Mil is that bad. (100 * 900000 SF)

If that was the case, and Jax doesnt want to spend more than 190, for that price you can get 1.9 M SF of space for $100 per SF

Not a bad price if you ask me

[RiversideGator]

I think the problem is the courthouse would cost $200-300 a square foot, not $100 a square foot. The city just needs to toughen up and realize that this is a large city (by virtue of consolidation one of the largest in the country) and we need a large, central courthouse. To be done properly, this will cost probably $250-300 million. Sell some bonds or something. Get it done.

[up+down=midtown]

ok here are the stats for the miami courthouse 577,784sq ft,130ft 14 stories,$163million

[merlin]

ok here are the stats for the miami courthouse 577,784sq ft,130ft 14 stories,$163million

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that is the case, the math works out to $282/sf. Using that logic... $282/s.f x 900,000sf = $253,800,000. already over the 232 amount and way over the 190 amount Peyton is refusing to go over.

[Viper]

It might be slightly cheaper in Jax than Miami so I wouldn't doubt that it could be done for at least the $232 million if not less.

[merlin]

It might be slightly cheaper in Jax than Miami so I wouldn't doubt that it could be done for at least the $232 million if not less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

building cost or project cost?

[Viper]

If Miami can build a 577k sqft 14 story courthouse for $163 million, why can't we build a 900k sqft 20+ story courthouse for $232 million?

Didn't we just recently learn that the $232 figure included the domed design?

Besides, the longer they wait, the harder it is to beat even that $232 number. In fact, he may as well forget the $190 number existed. That number was pulled from years ago.

If the cost of courthouses is following the trend in the cost of homes, which it seems like it is, now is he time to buy before it's twice that.

Sometimes, it's just better to commit to something before it gest worse.