Potential New Office Towers Inside 277 Loop

[csedwards72]

I think once the new arena is built downtown, and if more retail/restaurants could be lured downtown, that would help. Downtown Greenville, SC was completely dead until the early 1990s. Once a performing arts center was built, restaurants followed. Then once people started going downtown again for shows/dining, stores came back. Then once there were people downtown again and things to do there, office construction shifted back downtown. Hopefully Charlotte's CBD will have the same thing happen to it. Charlotte's CBD looks so nice that people probably don't realize that it's really not as successful as it could be in terms of commercial activity that it captures.

[49er]

i'd say the same thing has happened in Charlotte, and on a larger scale than greenville.

csedwards, you should do some research on the percentage of commercial space that most downtowns have in their respective metro area. Charlotte actually ranks very high at 37%. A 50% CBD/Suburban Market split for office space is unheard of in major markets. I did some research on this once, I believe on the CB Richard Ellis site.

[monsoon]

I don't think Duke will be building a skyscraper.

First they have to answer to the regulators on the NC Utilities Commission on their costs when seeking rate hikes on their regulated businesses. Ever wonder why they have never painted their present building? Keeping costs down is the reason.

Also, Duke is trying to get another license granted for the Catawba River System & Lakes. They are walking a very fine line right now as they have been accused of not providing enough access to the lakes, profiteering off the land that was given to them in the first place, and causing flooding, environmental damage, etc. The last thing I think they need is the negative exposure of building a signature tower downtown they don't need.

I don't see any other non-Charlotte company building a tower in the DT area anytime soon.

[dubone]

i only partially agree with the comments that duke will not build a new tower. This is a certainty for the near and medium term, as they have announced the fact that they have all the space they need at the old wachovia tower.

However, there are many cases where new construction could save the business money. All these towers have at some point been justified for their ability to save the business money, including the future wachovia tower on s tryon. Regulators and stock holders alike understand that fact, and would be okay with it if it made good fiscal sense. They would never go overboard with a vanity project, though, that might put them above 30 or 40 stories.

At some point the carrying costs for their old buildings will be too high, and new office space will be preferred from a cost standpoint. however, while there is so much existing space, there will be no need to build that new space.

Most likely, Duke will take up the older office buildings, while the banks arrange to have the new towers built. I just hope at some point we can convince a big F500 company to relocate and build a new tower. How bonus would that be?

[A2]

i'd say the same thing has happened in Charlotte, and on a larger scale than greenville.

csedwards, you should do some research on the percentage of commercial space that most downtowns have in their respective metro area. Charlotte actually ranks very high at 37%.  A 50% CBD/Suburban Market split for office space is unheard of in major markets. I did some research on this once, I believe on the CB Richard Ellis site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would have to agree with you 49er. At nearly 40% the CBD is quite healthy. On another note the vacancy's are not bad at all. With the conversion of office space into condos (ie Mass Mutual) it makes the vacancy's drop that much more. One thing that I have really noticed about CLT compared to other markets is that Charlotte will not build on speculation. However, a lot of cities do. One that comes to mind is Atlanta. ATL's vacancy rates stay very high. (I have seen them at 18-22% in their CBD !) I have seen developers actually build a bldg with less than a 20% space commitment. Interestingly enough ATL always ends up filling these towers up, EVENTUALLY. I think they have the idea that they need to stay ahead of the market. Sometimes I think companies like to see a finished product before commiting to lease terms. I almost think CLT should do this, but I realize that this can also have a reverse effect as well.

A2

[atlrvr]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but Crescent Resources (Duke's real estate arm) makes too much money, and the state regulators are upset about that. In that case it would make sense for them to eventually build a new tower that could be leased to Duke at a below market rate helping Duke Power increase profits, and decrease profits at Crescent helping Duke Energy overall maintain a better profit distribution.

[A2]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but Crescent Resources (Duke's real estate arm) makes too much money, and the state regulators are upset about that.  In that case it would make sense for them to eventually build a new tower that could be leased to Duke at a below market rate helping Duke Power increase profits, and decrease profits at Crescent helping Duke Energy overall maintain a better profit distribution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I say you call em' up atlrvr and speak some sense into these guys.

I want another tower by golly.

B)

A2

[dubone]

also, if Duke cannot build a tower, then why are they keeping a lot on the block with the new Wachovia tower on the firestone block for a future tower? I think it is just that they won't need to build in the 5ish years because of the available space in the old wachovia tower.

[csedwards72]

i'd say the same thing has happened in Charlotte, and on a larger scale than greenville.

csedwards, you should do some research on the percentage of commercial space that most downtowns have in their respective metro area. Charlotte actually ranks very high at 37%.  A 50% CBD/Suburban Market split for office space is unheard of in major markets. I did some research on this once, I believe on the CB Richard Ellis site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've done a lot of research. There are plenty of medium to large MSAs that have far higher percentages of commercial activity downtown. Seattle, Cincinnati and Portland, OR are three that I've recently visited. All 3 have a far larger percentage of office space downtown than Charlotte does, and all 3 have multiple downtown department stores and retail activity downtown. Even Columbia and Greenville, SC have about 50% or more of office space downtown, and Greenville has a larger percentage of retail activity downtown (and Columbia did until the early 1990s). My point is that apart from BofA and Wachovia and businesses that feed off of them, Charlotte's CBD attracts very little office space or other commercial activity. We need to be fixing the factors that create this. I think that Charlotte's upcoming mass transit system will help this, but there need to be other steps to fix this.

[rockhilljames]

I do think that Duke will be the next builder of a non-bank tower downtown. It's been in their plans for too long, and they do want a signature tower. The real question a few years ago was whether the headquarter tower would be here or in Houston.

It seems now that Duke is re-committed to staying in Charlotte. If that's the case, I'd look for them to build the next time their footprint expands.

On another note, I think all the residential tower activity will drive someone to finally build a speculative tower downtown. Carillion was the last one, and it's done pretty well over the years. Cornerstone was to be the next, and we still could see an office tower on that site...we'll see.

The Westin tower was mentioned, and I do think that has a good chance of happening. I also heard that they were now thinking of going the condo route with that tower, creating a condo/hotel mixture that would give condo owners the benefits of the hotel.

Anyone remember how hard BofA tried to get Microsoft to move downtown? That to me speaks more than anything else as to why we don't have more diversity downtown. In the end, Microsoft decided that they'd rather have complete control over their own campus.

Imagine if Nucor, TIAA-CREF, Lowe's, Microsoft, Goodrich (who really doesn't use all that much office space), Family Dollar, and Belk would have all decided to locate downtown. There wouldn't be a surface lot left!

[A2]

I do think that Duke will be the next builder of a non-bank tower downtown. It's been in their plans for too long, and they do want a signature tower. The real question a few years ago was whether the headquarter tower would be here or in Houston.

It seems now that Duke is re-committed to staying in Charlotte. If that's the case, I'd look for them to build the next time their footprint expands.

On another note, I think all the residential tower activity will drive someone to finally build a speculative tower downtown. Carillion was the last one, and it's done pretty well over the years. Cornerstone was to be the next, and we still could see an office tower on that site...we'll see.

The Westin tower was mentioned, and I do think that has a good chance of happening. I also heard that they were now thinking of going the condo route with that tower, creating a condo/hotel mixture that would give condo owners the benefits of the hotel.

Anyone remember how hard BofA tried to get Microsoft to move downtown? That to me speaks more than anything else as to why we don't have more diversity downtown. In the end, Microsoft decided that they'd rather have complete control over their own campus.

Imagine if Nucor, TIAA-CREF, Lowe's, Microsoft, Goodrich (who really doesn't use all that much office space), Family Dollar, and Belk would have all decided to locate downtown. There wouldn't be a surface lot left!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the way you think RHJ. I agree with 100% of your post. I, like you, believe once we have a resurgence in Uptown Living, that many corporations will be lured back to the core. (even if for just a small presence). A lot of the companies you mentioned have wonderful HQ's outside in the burb's and major operation centers well outside of town (ie Microsoft, Tiaa-Creff). Once you have a "critical mass" of people in the CBD it creates a demand of sorts for employers to accomodate their employee base. I also think that the once we start to land more amentities as the residence base builds many more coprorations will be more likely to build dtwn. It is kind of a domino effect in many ways. One thing will always become a catalyst for another. (ie residential units will lead to retail, which will in turn attract even more residents to that retail, the cycle is repetitive and is how major cities are built.) Alongside more residents, the LRT, being built now will go a long ways to improve transit options for the "uptown professional" adding more incentive for companies to have an uptown location.

JMHO

B)

A2

[SmellyCat]

Imagine if Nucor, TIAA-CREF, Lowe's, Microsoft, Goodrich (who really doesn't use all that much office space), Family Dollar, and Belk would have all decided to locate downtown. There wouldn't be a surface lot left!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TIAA-CREF's was a colossel mistake to do what they did. (This hits close to home for me ) They did not get a great deal on the land they bought from UNCC and then paid an ungodly sum to build a Taj Mahal oasis in the middle of nowhere. It pains me because they could've built an immaculate skyscraper in the heart of downtown Charlotte for a lesser price.

Now they're stuck with a white elephant that can probably only be sold for a huge loss - that is, if they could ever find a buyer for that campus. Just goes to show you how dumb people that work for the corporate real estate areas of major companies can be. Sorry if I've offended anyone here!!!

[Norm2]

anyone have any pics of the TIAA-CREF's campus? ive never seen it.

[Miesian Corners]

Ask and ye shall recieve

TIAA CREF Charlotte

Artwork on the campus ("The Glass Forest")

Talk about some cash being spent. And this is JUST a call center (for the most part).

[SmellyCat]

Nice pics Miesian! Thanks.

[Sabaidee]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but Crescent Resources (Duke's real estate arm) makes too much money, and the state regulators are upset about that.  In that case it would make sense for them to eventually build a new tower that could be leased to Duke at a below market rate helping Duke Power increase profits, and decrease profits at Crescent helping Duke Energy overall maintain a better profit distribution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Due to the merger, Duke Engery might have to sell off Crescent Resources as it might violate interstate energy regulations.

[A2]

Wachovia's had an opportunity to have more uptown workers as well within a huge tower (or possibly a family of smaller skrapers 30-40 story range). What did they do??? They went and built the 2nd largest office building (the Pentagon in DC is numero uno) in terms of sq footage and plopped it right on WT Harris. It employees over 12K people in one Bldg ! To give you an idea of what that would have done to the CLT CBD, think of it this way. As it stands now the BofA HQ tower houses roughly 3600 workers. Now triple that ! Before Crutchfield left (Former CEO of Wachovia) the tower that he envisioned was going to be one of the tallest in the world. Over 80 stories tall. It dwarfed the BofA tower in its rederings. Too be completely honest though, the bldg was U-G-L-Y, and would have been out of place, with respect to the rest of the CLT skyline.

BTW, here is a link to the CIC center I am referring to off of WT harris.

http://www.shelcoinc.com/images/projects-a2.jpg

Consequently, TIAA-CREFF, Microsft, and IBM must like that spot too, because that is where they are all at. GEEEZ ! Come on guys, gimme some towers baby !!!

B)

[skysdalimit]

Yuck, that makes me sick. Think of all the employees who could be uptown instead of way out there.

[Miesian Corners]

I've always been told Hugh McColl practically begged Crutchfield not to build CIC and put the office space uptown. Even went as far as looking at some land swaps to make it work for First Union (I love Hugh!) just to keep the employment base strong uptown and to help mass transit work better.

We all know what happened.

[csedwards72]

Yuck, that makes me sick.  Think of all the employees who could be uptown instead of way out there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point exactly, and we need to make sure that something like that doesn't happen again. But if pretty much every employer except BofA/Wachovia/Duke Energy shuns uptown, it will.

Uptown has about 55,000 workers. Wachovia's 12,000 in that building in URP would have really added substantially to the uptown consumer base and could have helped get more stores, restaurants, etc. uptown.

[A2]

I've always been told Hugh McColl practically begged Crutchfield not to build CIC and put the office space uptown.  Even went as far as looking at some land swaps to make it work for First Union (I love Hugh!) just to keep the employment base strong uptown and to help mass transit work better. 

We all know what happened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I sure miss the guy. I see him occasionally dtwn. He is truly a unique fellow. Most of the times I see him, he is in Jeans w/cowboy boots (and occasionaly you will catch him w/ his cowboy hat on). What a guy? It kind of makes me sad when I see that the former leaders of the city (such as Crutchfield and McColl) are no longer at the steering wheel driving uptown development. When those boys wanted to do something they just did it...They really built the Charlotte we now see today. Now it seems as though the banks have become less concerned about building more, but now are focussed on staying lean and limiting cost. This is the whole reason I started this thread. WE REALLY NEED A FRESH NEW PLAYER ! Don't get me wrong I am all behind the banking mecca CLT has become, but would love to see someone else in the mix dtwn.

B)

A2

[cinco]

I sure miss the guy. I see him occasionally dtwn. He is truly a unique fellow. Most of the times I see him, he is in Jeans w/cowboy boots (and occasionaly you will catch him w/ his cowboy hat on). What a guy? It kind of makes me sad when I see that the former leaders of the city (such as Crutchfield and McColl) are no longer at the steering wheel driving uptown development. When those boys wanted to do something they just did it...They really built the Charlotte we now see today. Now it seems as though the banks have become less concerned about building more, but now are focussed on staying lean and limiting cost. This is the whole reason I started this thread. WE REALLY NEED A FRESH NEW PLAYER ! Don't get me wrong I am all behind the banking mecca CLT has become, but would love to see someone else in the mix dtwn.

B)

A2

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, i miss McColl big time. i would give anything for that guy to run for mayor. even then, he would not be as powerful to the shaping of charlotte as he was with BoA....but just imagine. he loves this town and if you ever get a chance to hear him speak....very, very smart and interesting guy.

[monsoon]

yeah, i miss McColl big time.    i would give anything for that guy to run for mayor.  even then, he would not be as powerful to the shaping of charlotte as he was with BoA....but just imagine.  he loves this town and if you ever get a chance to hear him speak....very, very smart and interesting guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhhhh. Before all of you start worshiping him like Dale Earnheart, remember that during most of the time he presided over the bank, he was responsible for much of the urban renewal that "sterialized" Charlotte of all street life, eliminated endless historical buildings, and drove thousands to the suburbs. There are still fewer people living in the CBD than the day that he took over reigns of the bank.

[atlrvr]

Are you including the homeless in your population counts? You might be right if you are.

[cinco]

Uhhhh.  Before all of you start worshiping him like Dale Earnheart, remember that during most of the time he presided over the bank, he was responsible for much of the urban renewal that "sterialized" Charlotte of all street life, eliminated endless historical buildings, and drove thousands to the suburbs.  There are still fewer people living in the CBD than the day that he took over reigns of the bank.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

still, i'd vote for the guy. his good decisions outweigh his bad.

i heard him on "charlotte talks" one time, mike collins asked him if he might ever consider politics. in a true politician fashion, he politely evaded the question.