Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]

[demon]

If Jax can support a team with 2/3 the population of Orlando, and Tampa can support a team with a metro area where 25% of the population is over 70 years old, Orlando could without a doubt support an NFL team.

Baseball is another story. Too many games and too small of a market. Orlando would not be competitive, just like all the small market teams, St. Petersburg, Kansas City, Pittsburgh. Orlando would be better off with a first class minor league operation.

I wonder which will win out. Jax and Tampa's desire to control North and Central Florida's NFL audience or the NFL's desire to one day expand. LA is always the NFL's first choice. San Antonio always seems to be mentioned as an NFL expansion site, but you don't hear Orlando mentioned. I wonder why, considering Orlando metro area is now slightly larger than San Antonio and Orlando is growing faster as well.

San Antonio already has a NFL ready stadium in place, Orlando doesn't. Once the Citrus Bowl is refurbished I think Orlando will start attracting some attention from the NFL.

We're just now starting to discuss really refurbishing the Citrus Bowl, I doubt we'd be able to build a baseball stadium with the other 3 projects.

[speck76]

San Antonio already has a NFL ready stadium in place, Orlando doesn't. Once the Citrus Bowl is refurbished I think Orlando will start attracting some attention from the NFL.

We're just now starting to discuss really refurbishing the Citrus Bowl, I doubt we'd be able to build a baseball stadium with the other 3 projects.

We don't really need a baseball stadium....we have Crackerjack Field....which is underused, Tinker Field, which is unused, and Osceola Heritage Park, which is underused.....what is a new or additional baseball field going to do for the city?

Now, I am a fan of a new arena (just not how we are financing it) and a new PAC (which is probably our biggest need)....a renovated Citrus Bowl....I would prefer new (but that goes back to funding) and at least the Citrus bowl will be used a few times throughout the year.....but the talk of renovating or replacing Tinker Field....let's not spread the city's budgets too thin......

[illliterate02]

Most football fans are season ticket holders. Most people attending a baseball game are not. That means you need to tap a much larger market.

The $7.00 baseball ticket is not realistic either. That would be for the section called beach seats in St. Pete. Spring training tickets at Disney are $18.00 to $22.00, $13.00 to sit in the grass. Regular good seats for a MLB game range from around $80.00 to $20.00. That's in St Pete, one of the cheapest markets.

Are you serious? you can get seats for 8 dollars in San Diego in the outfield, you can get lower deck outfield for 16 dollars. brand new park. Those seats you are talking about are like maybe 2000 total in the whole stadium. By the way, Disney can ask that much for tickets because they can... People are still going to go. Season ticket holders in babeball are just unrealistic... no one can go to 81 games, lets be real here. But people can surely dish out 20 dollars or so 3-4 times a season. Not to mention, more people would go to football games if they could fit more in the stadium, most of them sell out. I dont think it is unrealistic to have baseball fans attend 5-10 games a season. I know a lot of people that would love to go to Miami or St. Pete to watch the games, but they just dont have the time to drive that far. And you are still discounting the hispanic population, and the growth... You all dont factor so much into your equations. If Oakland can support a team then Orlando could sin problemas...

[facilities man]

Are you serious? you can get seats for 8 dollars in San Diego in the outfield, you can get lower deck outfield for 16 dollars. brand new park. Those seats you are talking about are like maybe 2000 total in the whole stadium. By the way, Disney can ask that much for tickets because they can... People are still going to go. Season ticket holders in babeball are just unrealistic... no one can go to 81 games, lets be real here. But people can surely dish out 20 dollars or so 3-4 times a season. Not to mention, more people would go to football games if they could fit more in the stadium, most of them sell out. I dont think it is unrealistic to have baseball fans attend 5-10 games a season. I know a lot of people that would love to go to Miami or St. Pete to watch the games, but they just dont have the time to drive that far. And you are still discounting the hispanic population, and the growth... You all dont factor so much into your equations. If Oakland can support a team then Orlando could sin problemas...

Last time I looked the outfield was not considered good seats. The cheapest non outfield non upper deck seat in St. Pete is $21.00, an average seat costs $37.00, and the best seats are $125.00, not exactly cheap. The same approximate range applies for San Deigo. Unless you don't care about being able to see the game you can expect to pay about $37.00 for an average ticket to a MLB game. I went to a spring training game for the Washington Nationals in Brevard County too. I believe they charged $16.00 for their seats and two bucks to park. Disney was free to park if you can believe that, so it's not just Disney. Miami has not drawn the crowds either and they have just a few more Hispanics than Orlando, by about a million or so...

[illliterate02]

Last time I looked the outfield was not considered good seats. The cheapest non outfield non upper deck seat in St. Pete is $21.00, an average seat costs $37.00, and the best seats are $125.00, not exactly cheap. The same approximate range applies for San Deigo. Unless you don't care about being able to see the game you can expect to pay about $37.00 for an average ticket to a MLB game. I went to a spring training game for the Washington Nationals in Brevard County too. I believe they charged $16.00 for their seats and two bucks to park. Disney was free to park if you can believe that, so it's not just Disney. Miami has not drawn the crowds either and they have just a few more Hispanics than Orlando, by about a million or so...

If that is true then no one would pay to see the Devil Rays. And considereing that I used to live down the street from PetCo Park I can tell you that a on the left field fence was 20 dollars last season... I will scan you my stub of the last one I went to if you like. According to the devil rays web site for a single regular season game tickets run 8-90$ with majority of the tickets running less that 37.00$, Not to mention most teams have the same exact set of pricing. I would only think about 2 or 3 teams (Boston, NYY and Cubs) would have different prices, and games circulating record breaking events. Oh well, Im done with it...

And those baseball facilities you mentioned Speck are horrendous. Pros would never play there seriously...

[F-L-A]

Baltimore and DC are half the distance from each other than Orlando and Tampa...

They're also MUCH bigger.

[Magicfan95]

Could baseball survive in Orlando? Maybe. If the team was good...Which in this market would be hard to generate revenue.

The thing is we have 2 MIllion people, however, you must remember that a good percentage are in the service industry. Which leads to working nights and weekends.

One other point almost every MLB ballpark has cheap tickets. I went to a Reds game a few weeks ago and got 17 dollars for 3rd base line tix about 15 rows up. Their outfield seats were 8 bucks.

Outside Fenway, AT&T Park, and Wrigley most MLB parks arent selling out every night

Edited May 23, 2006 by Magicfan95

[Topher1]

^ Fenway is rediculous... I'll be in Boston this weekend, so I was researching Red Sox tickets about a month ago. The cheapest I could find were ~$70 apiece for standing-room-only (a month in advance vs. the Devil Rays)... Marlins tickets start from around $10-12 for same day purchases and Braves tickets can be bought for an absurd $4 same day... As much as I love baseball, it's clear that the southern markets are already overextended, especially compared to other areas of the country.

[speck76]

From a 2004 report:

Orlando has twice the economic capacity needed for an NFL franchise or a National Hockey League team. It also has the highest rating of any market not in Major League Baseball, though its income base falls 7 percent short of the sport's requirements.

Which goes along with the previous comment that we have the people, but not the money for baseball.....it is the most expensive sport to be in...between the long season and lack of a salary cap.....

Perhaps Orlando would be a good spot for a MLS frachise....MLS is expanding, and ever since they pushed teams to get out of football stadiums and into smaller (25K) soccer stadiums (which have been fairly cheap to build) the sport has seen good growth, and is adding a good number of teams in 2007. In addition, Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, and more popular with Latinos than baseball ever has been.

Furthermore, one problem that Orlando faces with established sports is that since most people here are transplants, they continue to cheer for their old home team.....I think we have more Yankee and Red Sox fans in Orlando than Marlins or Devil Ray fans..... With a sport like MLS, there was never an old home team.....so the team is one for ALL residents of the area....

[illliterate02]

In addition, Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, and more popular with Latinos than baseball ever has been.

Well that would be true if most of the latinos in the Orlando area were from Central or South America, but since most are Caribbean, where Baseball is by far the most popular sport, this actually doesn't mean anything for the Orlando area.

And dealing with baseball, the Expos were planning to move to San Juan, PR a few years ago, a metro of 1.4 million where the average income is 1/3 less than that of Orlando. If there wouldnt have been such a large open market in Washington then they would have moved to PR. (Not a good move in my book). I think that they should plan for the future and start designing sports complexes for all sports, especially MLB. I am sure that the Devil Rays will be gone in a few seasons and Orlando would be prime area for a new team. Sure there are a lot of transplants, and a lot of Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, Mets fans that would love to watch their teams play against the Orlando So-n-so's in their own back yard. Plus all you need is a few seasons of success to change peoples minds... Sure they might always like the Red Sox, but they can grow to adopt another team especially if they are in separate leagues. My two pennies...

[Magicfan95]

Furthermore, one problem that Orlando faces with established sports is that since most people here are transplants, they continue to cheer for their old home team.....I think we have more Yankee and Red Sox fans in Orlando than Marlins or Devil Ray fans..... With a sport like MLS, there was never an old home team.....so the team is one for ALL residents of the area....

Exactly,

Go to a D-Rays game when NY or Boston is in town its like Yankee Stadium/Fenway - South.

[facilities man]

Exactly,

Go to a D-Rays game when NY or Boston is in town its like Yankee Stadium/Fenway - South.

That's just like the Bucs games were 15 years ago. Now all the Tampa Bay Bucs games are filled with Tampa fans. It's funny how winning can bring out the fans.

[pip]

So will Jeb help us land an Orlando NFL team?

Governor Jeb Bush Confirms Discussing His Interest in NFL Commissioner Job

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196801,00.html

[orlandonative]

Not sure how to link it, but there is a big article in the Orlando sentinel with regards to the PAC layout.

[uncreativeusername]

Not sure how to link it, but there is a big article in the Orlando sentinel with regards to the PAC layout.

Arts-center plan takes a bow

Advocates envision a sprawling downtown Orlando complex with 3 performance halls.

Mark Schlueb and David Damron | Sentinel Staff Writers

Posted May 25, 2006

Orlando arts boosters unveiled long-awaited plans Wednesday for a $376 million performing-arts center that would sprawl over two downtown blocks, sit on a European-style public plaza and be surrounded by a half-billion dollars in private development.

The plan, presented Wednesday to the nonprofit Orlando Performing Arts Center's board of directors, will be the centerpiece of a pitch for public land, more than $300 million in tax dollars and tens of millions more in private contributions in the coming months.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/yahoo/...wsaol-headlines

[demon]

Well that would be true if most of the latinos in the Orlando area were from Central or South America, but since most are Caribbean, where Baseball is by far the most popular sport, this actually doesn't mean anything for the Orlando area.

And dealing with baseball, the Expos were planning to move to San Juan, PR a few years ago, a metro of 1.4 million where the average income is 1/3 less than that of Orlando. If there wouldnt have been such a large open market in Washington then they would have moved to PR. (Not a good move in my book). I think that they should plan for the future and start designing sports complexes for all sports, especially MLB. I am sure that the Devil Rays will be gone in a few seasons and Orlando would be prime area for a new team. Sure there are a lot of transplants, and a lot of Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, Mets fans that would love to watch their teams play against the Orlando So-n-so's in their own back yard. Plus all you need is a few seasons of success to change peoples minds... Sure they might always like the Red Sox, but they can grow to adopt another team especially if they are in separate leagues. My two pennies...

The Devils Rays aren't going anywhere.

[bulldogger]

Arts-center plan takes a bow

Advocates envision a sprawling downtown Orlando complex with 3 performance halls.

Mark Schlueb and David Damron | Sentinel Staff Writers

Posted May 25, 2006

Orlando arts boosters unveiled long-awaited plans Wednesday for a $376 million performing-arts center that would sprawl over two downtown blocks, sit on a European-style public plaza and be surrounded by a half-billion dollars in private development.

The plan, presented Wednesday to the nonprofit Orlando Performing Arts Center's board of directors, will be the centerpiece of a pitch for public land, more than $300 million in tax dollars and tens of millions more in private contributions in the coming months.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/yahoo/...wsaol-headlines

I think the order of things should go:

1) PAC

2) New arena

3) Citrus Bowl renovation (if at all)

[Magicfan95]

I've heard all three are definites so long as the county passes it by a 5 of 7 vote.

[prahaboheme]

The PAC sounds amazing, though I don't like the idea of closing that section of Magnolia. There are plenty of ways to incorporate roads with plazas (ie Lincoln Road Mall, South Beach).

[Topher1]

^ It seems like it would create a minor inconvience at most for drivers if that section of road closed... As long as a pedestrian plaza kept what little pedestrian access there already is between Magnolia and it's terminus at Orange, I'd be happy... Of course, if this becomes a monolithic structure that effectively dead ends the street for all uses, then that would be a bit more tragic...

[mrh3]

Its seems to me that the project does sound positive. I checked the seating capacity (2,800) against Avery Fischer Hall at Lincoln Center (2,700), Carnegie Hall (2,804), and the Kodak Theatre (4,000) and it stacks up as a comparable seating capacity. Having only one smaller theatre maybe limiting, however. What bothers me the most about the project is that it seems to lack focus. Kodak Theatre in L.A. was built in the style of Old World Opera houses. If the history and tradition is to follow form it would seem to me that they focus on building a venue for the arts. As far as the office building, the OC Administration building, the residential condos, they seem to be add-ons that will complicate the project. While other interests may want to have a hand in what will be a hallmark project with global impact, I would hope that the powers that be realize that the point is simply to build a world-class performance arts space.

Edited May 25, 2006 by mrh3

[sunshine]

OBJ has an article on this as well and it sounds like we will have 4 or 5 more towers added to our skyline when the project is done.

Here is the link to the article

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/sto...tml?jst=b_ln_hl

[Magicfan95]

As nice as the plan sounds, the project will not cost $900M once it is run by the city/county further. I don't expect hotels on site, etc. The impact fees alone will scale this project down.

[illliterate02]

The Devils Rays aren't going anywhere.

Good evidence, I can see your point...

[demon]

Good evidence, I can see your point...

Here's my point.....where would they go?? What market is big enough & has a stadium ready for a baseball team to move into? A few years ago they placed a team in San Juan, PR because there was no viable market in the US. The Marlins are talking about claiming San Antonio & that's a smaller market than Tampa.

Tampa is a good size market, and if the Devil Rays are the local team for Orlando it's a huge market. The reason people don't go to the games isn't because of location & the stadium, or because the market is oversaturated it's because this team has never finished out of the basement. You have to blame ownership for that.