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Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]


jc_perez2003

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34 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

They went from a F grade facility to a D grade facility.  They are looking to make it at least a C- with the next step.  Maybe even a full C.

Do we know of a stadium that doesn’t have a regular tenant (like an NFL or college team) that we should look to as a model?

The municipal stadiums I’ve been to (admittedly all in the South) have been in even worse condition than the Citrus.

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1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I don't know many that fit that description, but we have one and it isn't up to snuff.

What’s going to be interesting is to see if the model is sustainable.

Remembering back to the few stadia I visited that did not have dedicated teams (the Tangerine Bowl, Legion Field in B’ham, the Gator Bowl before the Jags, the Orange Bowl even with the ‘Canes), none had the modern amenities you’d associate with an NFL stadium.

In the case of the Tangerine Bowl and the Orange Bowl (I don’t know how the others came about), both were WPA projects built during the Depression with the primary goal of putting men to work rather than either the comfort of patrons or maximizing a team owner’s profitability.

In fact, in the case of the Tangerine Bowl (which became the Citrus Bowl), it was downright tiny to begin with (mostly used for high school games).

The Orange Bowl, especially after Joe Robbie built his own stadium for the Dolphins, basically got so bad even The U had to move across town.

Legion Field in Birmingham, although not far from UAB, has apparently declined enough that UAB is just starting from scratch.

Orlando’s in a unique position given the number of visitors who fund the TDT. It’s an open question whether the number of heads in beds generated by a state-of-the-art facility like you envision will make it worthwhile to the I-Drive poobahs who control the tax by default.

It may simply not be sustainable but I guess we’re on our way to finding out.

 

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Literally nothing is left of the structure built in 1936. The upper decks and lighting towers were built in 1989, and the last "renovation" in 2014 demolished the entire original structure including the field/underdrain/playing surface, and replaced the entire bottom bowl. There is nothing historic about it, other than that site has been used for events for over a hundred years. Here is a photo after they demolished the original structure with only the stands built in the 80s left: 

Citrus_Bowl_-_Upper_Deck.jpg

Edited by dcluley98
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4 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Literally nothing is left of the structure built in 1936. The upper decks and lighting towers were built in 1989, and the last "renovation" in 2014 demolished the entire original structure including the field/underdrain/playing surface, and replaced the entire bottom bowl. There is nothing historic about it, other than that site has been used for events for over a hundred years. Here is a photo after they demolished the original structure with only the stands built in the 80s left: 

 

Citrus_Bowl_-_Upper_Deck.jpg

It wouldn’t matter much if it were historic given Bulldozer Buddy’s disregard for adjoining Tinker Field.

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16 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Literally nothing is left of the structure built in 1936. The upper decks and lighting towers were built in 1989, and the last "renovation" in 2014 demolished the entire original structure including the field/underdrain/playing surface, and replaced the entire bottom bowl. There is nothing historic about it, other than that site has been used for events for over a hundred years. Here is a photo after they demolished the original structure with only the stands built in the 80s left: 

If the majority of the stadium was rebuilt from the ground up only a few years ago, then how come it's so bad?

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44 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It wouldn’t matter much if it were historic given Bulldozer Buddy’s disregard for adjoining Tinker Field.

Can't really blame Dyer for that, IMO. It was a trade off. Either renovate the CB so we could keep on getting big games there, or hold on to an old baseball field that nobody used anymore anyway.

32 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

Because it wasn’t given a lot of money to begin with. Compared to other stadiums at least.

Without a pro team calling it their home, how much money did it deserve and where would it come from? Apparently the renovation was good enough to please the major bowl sponsors, which was the entire point to begin with.

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7 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Can't really blame Dyer for that, IMO. It was a trade off. Either renovate the CB so we could keep on getting big games there, or hold on to an old baseball field that nobody used anymore anyway.

It might be a valid point. The problem comes in that he never really asked anybody.

Think about all the public hearings that go on before changing roads, schools, etc.

This was once again Buddy just letting the bulldozers run with little public interaction. It was basically a repeat of sending out the bulldozers overnight on the Jaymont block.

That’s not how democracies operate, particularly at the local level. If you don’t let citizens have the chance to participate, they become apathetic and cynical and you wind up with the mess we’re currently in at the national level.

(To further cement the point, average voter turnout for City elections is considered successful if it hits 15%.)

Edited by spenser1058
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1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Can't really blame Dyer for that, IMO. It was a trade off. Either renovate the CB so we could keep on getting big games there, or hold on to an old baseball field that nobody used anymore anyway.

Without a pro team calling it their home, how much money did it deserve and where would it come from? Apparently the renovation was good enough to please the major bowl sponsors, which was the entire point to begin with.

This is what i've been thinking from the onset and wondering what exactly people were expecting. I also fail to see in any way whatsoever how the CB is considered a "dump" to people that have actually gone to it since the reno. My question is, in what sense of the word? Everything was modernized and renovated, the number of bathrooms was increased, vending areas got better, seats are significantly nicer.... how exactly is it a "dump"? I can't possibly understand how anyone who went to the CB BEFORE the renovation is calling what we have NOW a "dump". If you're comparing the lack of areas you'll likely never be in during your entire visit to the stadium, like suites, loge boxes, corporate areas, etc, then I think the issue people have is that it lacks optimal high end revenue streams from a group of about 5% of attendees. 

Sorry, but i've never bought the "it's a dump" argument and think it's incredibly short-sighted. 

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2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It might be a valid point. The problem comes in that he never really asked anybody.

Think about all the public hearings that go on before changing roads, schools, etc.

This was once again Buddy just letting the bulldozers run with little public interaction. It was basically a repeat of sending out the bulldozers overnight on the Jaymont block.

That’s not how democracies operate, particularly at the local level. If you don’t let citizens have the chance to participate, they become apathetic and cynical and you wind up with the mess we’re currently in at the national level.

(To further cement the point, average voter turnout for City elections is considered successful if it hits 15%.)

So then you're saying if one special interest group managed whip enough of their dedicated followers into a frenzy over saving Tinker Field to block the CB renovation, and in doing so, caused Orlando to lose the bowl games, that would have been preferable to just going ahead with it as happened?

Sorry, but I can't see any advantage for anyone in that, and today people would be excoriating Dyer over a lack of leadership.

I made basically the same argument with the Jaymont block. Neither of those buildings had any real significance other than pleasant memories and what got built in their place is a major economic generator for downtown, as well as a major visual improvement for the corner of Orange and Church.

 

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1 hour ago, Xander said:

This is what i've been thinking from the onset and wondering what exactly people were expecting. I also fail to see in any way whatsoever how the CB is considered a "dump" to people that have actually gone to it since the reno. My question is, in what sense of the word? Everything was modernized and renovated, the number of bathrooms was increased, vending areas got better, seats are significantly nicer.... how exactly is it a "dump"? I can't possibly understand how anyone who went to the CB BEFORE the renovation is calling what we have NOW a "dump". If you're comparing the lack of areas you'll likely never be in during your entire visit to the stadium, like suites, loge boxes, corporate areas, etc, then I think the issue people have is that it lacks optimal high end revenue streams from a group of about 5% of attendees. 

Sorry, but i've never bought the "it's a dump" argument and think it's incredibly short-sighted. 

I think that's all the result of unrealistic expectations, thinking only in terms of "wow factor" and ignoring the reality that our local government just didn't have the funding to "dump" (npi) a couple hundred million more dollars into it than they did. So calling it a "dump" might just be a way to vent a little frustration at not having something that many NFL cities don't even have. 

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9 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

So then you're saying if one special interest group managed whip enough of their dedicated followers into a frenzy over saving Tinker Field to block the CB renovation, and in doing so, caused Orlando to lose the bowl games, that would have been preferable to just going ahead with it as happened?

Sorry, but I can't see any advantage for anyone in that, and today people would be excoriating Dyer over a lack of leadership.

I made basically the same argument with the Jaymont block. Neither of those buildings had any real significance other than pleasant memories and what got built in their place is a major economic generator for downtown, as well as a major visual improvement for the corner of Orange and Church.

 

One special interest group? Hardly. But in any event, the point is Buddy is not king. We operate in a democracy, not a monarchy.

According to your philosophy, a mayor who hates oak trees because she’s allergic to oak pollen can just send out a chainsaw gang one night and take down all the oak trees. You’d be fine with that, I’m sure. 

She could even declare it a state of emergency for the well-being of hay fever sufferers throughout the city.

Just because you like something or I like something doesn’t make it right. We already have a problem with apathy in local elections. Tampa has nine candidates for mayor in March. When is the last time we had anything approaching that level of interest?

 

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As far as “one special interest group” goes, I can think of four separate groups with totally different interests who were denied an opportunity to work together with those who agreed with what happened:

(1) The preservationists;

(2) African-Americans who revered Tinker Field as the only place Martin Luther King, Jr. ever spoke in Orlando before he was killed;

(3) Those trying to rejuvenate the neighborhood and did not believe a huge football stadium would help in fostering cohesiveness or a sense of community;

(4) Those (including some on this board) who believe such a large facility belongs in the attractions area.

That’s just four. There are probably others.

We’ll never know what was possible though because one person believed he knew best and never gave anyone a chance to dissent.

 

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6 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

One special interest group? Hardly. But in any event, the point is Buddy is not king. We operate in a democracy, not a monarchy.

According to your philosophy, a mayor who hates oak trees because she’s allergic to oak pollen can just send out a chainsaw gang one night and take down all the oak trees. You’d be fine with that, I’m sure. 

She could even declare it a state of emergency for the well-being of hay fever sufferers throughout the city.

Just because you like something or I like something doesn’t make it right. We already have a problem with apathy in local elections. Tampa has nine candidates for mayor in March. When is the last time we had anything approaching that level of interest?

Re: cutting trees, I think you're conflating two different arguments. First of all, there are ordinances about cutting trees and second of all, Buddy didn't knock down those buildings for his own comfort or convenience or other personal reasons. Furthermore, there is no legitimate argument that could be made that cutting down oak trees was necessary economically.

And the hay fever thing? That's really pushing the boundaries of credibility. :rolleyes:

If you want to make that argument, I could do the same thing by pointing out that Dyer could've declared a state of emergency because the buildings were rat and vermin infested as well being as a structurally unsound public hazard. :dontknow:

In practical terms, if we want things to get done and see progress, a public leader has to say "full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes" then just do it. If he had done what you suggest, we could still be hashing it out while that corner, like the old CB, continued to deteriorate.

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There had already been resolutions passed about the Jaymont Block also but he ignored them.

The preservationists could have sued, but Orlando’s group is relatively weak (as opposed if something like that happened in Savannah, Charleston or even in Jacksonville in Riverside/Avondale.

Besides, what would have been the point. He’d made sure they were already rubble.

There’salso the fact that he did it before finishing DPAC, even though it was by far the more popular project.

It rather reminds me of a situation taking place in DC right now. 

Edited by spenser1058
And that kind of thinking, had Mayor Bill listened to the developers and realtors, would have led to demolishing Eola Heights and having empty lots just like we had next to BoA for 25 years. Again, you’re deciding for the whole community.
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5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

As far as “one special interest group” goes, I can think of four separate groups with totally different interests who were denied an opportunity to work together with those who agreed with what happened:

(1) The preservationists;

(2) African-Americans who revered Tinker Field as the only place Martin Luther King, Jr. ever spoke in Orlando before he was killed;

(3) Those trying to rejuvenate the neighborhood and did not believe a huge football stadium would help in fostering cohesiveness or a sense of community;

(4) Those (including some on this board) who believe such a large facility belongs in the attractions area.

That’s just four. There are probably others.

We’ll never know what was possible though because one person believed he knew best and never gave anyone a chance to dissent.

Nothing like decisive leadership for gittin 'er done!!!! :thumbsup:

And I don't think it's fair to say Dyer just ignored the concerns of the CB area residents or African Americans. 

Chalk CB and Jaymont block up to the greater good.

Besides, making these kinds of decisions is what we elect people like Dyer for. 

Not to moderate never ending debates over every issue that arises.

If local govt were to cater to every NIMBY group that popped up in every issue, we'd never see anything get done.

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2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

There had already been resolutions passed about the Jaymont Block also but he ignored them.

The preservationists could have sued, but Orlando’s group is relatively weak (as opposed to something like that happening in Savannah, Charleston or even in Jacksonville in Riverside/Avondale.)

Besides, what would have been the point. He’d made sure they were already rubble.

There's also the fact that he did it before finishing DPAC, even though it was by far the more popular project.

It rather reminds me of a situation taking place in DC right now. 

 

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6 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Nothing like decisive leadership for gittin 'er done!!!! :thumbsup:

And I don't think it's fair to say Dyer just ignored the concerns of the CB area residents or African Americans. 

Chalk CB and Jaymont block up to the greater good.

Besides, making these kinds of decisions is what we elect people like Dyer for. 

Not to moderate never ending debates over every issue that arises.

If local govt were to cater to every NIMBY group that popped up in every issue, we'd never see anything get done.

Ummm, I remind you less than 15% of the city elected him (and that’s of registered voters). 

If  only what one person wants matters, we can eliminate much of the city staff and the various review boards, etc. Think of the money we’ll save!

Edited by spenser1058
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The demolition of the Jaymont block should  never be seen as chalking it up to the greater good. Those facades could have been preserved and the project could have still moved forward. I disagree they weren’t worth preserving. Miami Beach doesn’t demolish its Art Deco Heritage in the name of progress — it’s architecture is a major reason why the place exists in the first place. 

Whats there is fine - it could have been a much better overall development had the facades been incorporated.

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33 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

The demolition of the Jaymont block should  never be seen as chalking it up to the greater good. Those facades could have been preserved and the project could have still moved forward. I disagree they weren’t worth preserving. Miami Beach doesn’t demolish its Art Deco Heritage in the name of progress — it’s architecture is a major reason why the place exists in the first place. 

Whats there is fine - it could have been a much better overall development had the facades been incorporated.

The good news is we got the theater although it could have gone elsewhere. Otherwise, it’s been a black hole for retail. The design is also sadly lacking - what Walt would have called the “wienie” leads you back to a back room area (Court St.) that is totally pedestrian unfriendly. 

Had Bulldozer Buddy not been in such a hurry to plow everything down, a much better design could have been devised.

The ultimate irony is that developer Cameron Kuhn achieved success by renovating classic and historic properties all around downtown.

The unnecessary haste of what they did was a significant part of what led to Cameron’s decline and fall.

Just one more part of the Bulldozer Buddy legacy.

Thankfully, Buddy has been better in other parts of his reign. Just as JFK’s “Best and Brightest” crashed and burned, however, the mayor who got the highest score ever on the bar exam after graduating from UF Law fell victim to hubris in this case and at Tinker Field.

There are a significant number of Democrats in town to this day who refuse to support Buddy for those ill-timed moves. That led to us losing District 1 when they encouraged Phil Diamond to abandon his seat and run for mayor.

Edited by spenser1058
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To prahaboheme’s point, developers wanted to bulldoze the Deco district of South Beach and were only stopped by the efforts of the Wolfson family and other passionate volunteers at the last minute.

At the time, South Beach was practically a ghetto and Miami was mostly considered a rapidly fading city.

The renaissance of the Deco district changed everything and led Miami to recover its hipster cred and become one of the “It” cities in the country for the first time in decades.

Thank goodness for that “special interest group.”

Edited by spenser1058
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