Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]

[JFW657]

Rather than try to sift through this avalanche of "highly debatable" points using the cumbersome quote feature, I'll just do it this way...

spencer1058: "There had already been resolutions passed about the Jaymont Block also but he ignored them."

Resolutions by whom? We're they legally binding? Apparently not. Again, had Dyer done as you suggest he should have, they'd still be debating the issue today, and we'd still have a run down eyesore block at Orange and Church occupied by a bunch of dilapidated, trashy looking old two story buildings.

spencer1058: "The preservationists could have sued, but Orlando’s group is relatively weak (as opposed if something like that happened in Savannah, Charleston or even in Jacksonville in Riverside/Avondale."

How much power do you need to hire an attorney? Couldn't they find one who shared their views willing to work pro bono? If their views on the subject were as popular as you suggest, it seems like they would have been able to.

And btw, if the cause of preserving that block was as popular as you suggest, where were the crowds of sign carrying protesters? It's not like it hadn't been public knowledge for years that plans were afoot to redevelop that parcel. It's not like it was top secret and kept under wraps behind closed doors, then one day we suddenly woke up to bulldozers and piles of rubble with no warning whatsoever.

Remember the big oak tree at Constitution Green? When people heard it might fall to development, they mobilized. Petitions were circulated. 

There was hue!!!

There was cry!!!

There was hue and cry simultaneously!!! 

Nothing even close was done for the 1940's drug stores. 

Why? 

Nobody cared. 

People wanted that block redeveloped and Dyer got it done.

Good for him. 

I like what's there now a million times better than those ratty looking old drug stores.

spencer1058: "There’s also the fact that he did it before finishing DPAC, even though it was by far the more popular project."

Are you still talking about Jaymont? Or are you thinking of CB? What has a private development have to do with DPAC?

spencer1058: "And that kind of thinking, had Mayor Bill listened to the developers and realtors, would have led to demolishing Eola Heights and having empty lots just like we had next to BoA for 25 years. Again, you’re deciding for the whole community."

Well now you're entering the realm of hyperbole. The idea that knocking down a couple of old two story drugstores from the 1940's that occupied the premier intersection in downtown Orlando in order to construct a major mixed used high rise complex, is somehow tantamount to razing an entire historic neighborhood to put up small condo projects here and there, something that would have happened rarely if ever anyway, is really stretching "logic".

And... aren't you also trying to decide for the whole community? 

spencer1058: "Ummm, I remind you less than 15% of the city elected him (and that’s of registered voters)." 

If that's how politically disengaged Orlando voters are, it's a good thing we don't look to them for guidance on other issues because it would almost certainly result in one ill-advised decision and negative outcome after another.

prahaboheme: "The demolition of the Jaymont block should  never be seen as chalking it up to the greater good. Those facades could have been preserved and the project could have still moved forward." 

You are assuming someone would have wanted to. What if no developer was willing to do that? 

Keep in mind the title "Jaymont block" refers to the name of a real estate company who had once planned to build a modern, glittering 35 story high rise on that block, then told Orlando where to stuff it after being told they had to alter their design for the very same purpose you mentioned.

prahaboheme: "I disagree they weren’t worth preserving. Miami Beach doesn’t demolish its Art Deco Heritage in the name of progress — it’s architecture is a major reason why the place exists in the first place." 

Miami's Art Deco district is a far cry from those two cheesey looking old two story derelicts. Personally, I found the Woolworth's building to be downright ugly. McCrory's might have actually been worth saving had it been about six floors taller with a lot of detail on the north and west facing facades.

prahaboheme: "Whats there is fine - it could have been a much better overall development had the facades been incorporated."

Again... let me paraphrase what Jaymont Realty told O-town back in the 1980's... "Hey Orlando, keep your little drug stores and go take a hike!!! We don't need all this aggravation!!!"

[prahaboheme]

Let’s got confuse facts and opinions. Im not assuming that a developer would ever want to preserve the facades. Before the midnight demolition of the block, there were ongoing discussions about its preservation.

You will have to help me understand why those buildings were “cheesy.”

[JFW657]

23 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

To prahaboheme’s point, developers wanted to bulldoze the Deco district of South Beach and were only stopped by the efforts of the Wolfson family and other passionate volunteers at the last minute.

At the time, South Beach was practically a ghetto and Miami was mostly considered a rapidly fading city.

The renaissance of the Deco district changed everything and led Miami to recover its hipster cred and become one of the “It” cities in the country for the first time in decades.

Thank goodness for that “special interest group.”

Never heard of the Wolfson family, but there's a really interesting documentary on PBS, just saw it again last weekend, about a woman named Barbara Capitman, who is credited with almost single handedly saving Miami's art deco district and for it being on the National Register.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-05-30-9905290368-story.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Baer_Capitman

[spenser1058]

Let’s get our facts straight. They were major chain dime stores, not drug stores.

In fact, the McCrory’s, which was from the ‘40’s, had their district offices there. The Woolworth’s was even older, going back to the late ‘20’s-early ‘30’s.

And, in fact, there had been an attempt for nearly a decade to save it but Jaymont refused to budge and they had City Hall locked up.

Constitution Green because the Caruso family, deeply entrenched in the community, was approached by their friends and neighbors (including me) to strike a deal. They did because they cared how they were viewed.

Jaymont cared only about the money and has long since left town while the Carusos are still here.

4 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Never heard of the Wolfson family, but there's a really interesting documentary on PBS, just saw it again last weekend, about a woman named Barbara Capitman, who is credited with almost single handedly saving Miami's art deco district and for it being on the National Register.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-05-30-9905290368-story.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Baer_Capitman

The Wolfsons are one of the most powerful families in South Florida. They made the funding possible when the banks were skeptical.

[JFW657]

6 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Let’s got confuse facts and opinions. Im not assuming that a developer would ever want to preserve the facades. Before the midnight demolition of the block, there were ongoing discussions about its preservation.

You will have to help me understand why those buildings were “cheesy.”

Well, the way you proposed it, sounded like you saw it as a foregone conclusion that some developer would have.

As for them being "cheesy", I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. There was really nothing architecturally special about them. And at two stories, they could hardly be described as significant structures. Also, because they were only built in the 1940's, you can't really even say they were historic.

I dunno. Outside of some people's childhood memories of their mothers taking them there for root beer floats, I don't see the big deal about saving them.

Had they looked like the Kress building across Orange Avenue, that of course, would be a whole 'nother story.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

Well, the way you proposed it, sounded like you saw it as a foregone conclusion that some developer would have.

As for them being "cheesy", I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. There was really nothing architecturally special about them. And at two stories, they could hardly be described as significant structures. Also, because they were only built in the 1940's, you can't really even say they were historic.

I dunno. Outside of some people's childhood memories of their mothers taking them there for root beer floats, I don't see the big deal about saving them.

Had they looked like the Kress building across Orange Avenue, that of course, would be a whole 'nother story.

Woolworth’s was every bit as significant with its Beaux Arts facade and McCrory’s with its Streamline Moderne architecture as the Kress Building was (and is).

Chase Plaza, meanwhile, is standard issue boring and poorly designed to boot. 

[JFW657]

4 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Let’s get our facts straight. They were major chain dime stores, not drug stores.

In fact, the McCrory’s, which was from the ‘40’s, had their district offices there. The Woolworth’s was even older, going back to the late ‘20’s-early ‘30’s.

And, in fact, there had been an attempt for nearly a decade to save it but Jaymont refused to budge and they had City Hall locked up.

Constitution Green because the Caruso family, deeply entrenched in the community, was approached by their friends and neighbors (including me) to strike a deal. They did because they cared how they were viewed.

Jaymont cared only about the money and has long since left town while the Carusos are still here.

The Wolfsons are one of the most powerful families in South Florida. They made the funding possible when the banks were skeptical.

It was Barbara Capitman who did the real work and got the rest of the community behind her by making it a cause célèbre.

Try to find the documentary and watch it.

[spenser1058]

Just now, JFW657 said:

It was Barbara Capitman who did the real work and got the rest of the community behind her by making it a cause célèbre.

Try to find the documentary and watch it.

As I mentioned, “passionate volunteers”. I’ve worked on preservation projects for 30 years and you’re telling me to watch PBS? Wow.

[JFW657]

Just now, spenser1058 said:

Woolworth’s was every bit as significant with its Beaux Arts facade and McCrory’s with its Streamline Moderne architecture as the Kress Building was (and is).

Chase Plaza, meanwhile, is standard issue boring and poorly designed to boot. 

As Devo once said: "For you, but not for me."

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

As I mentioned, “passionate volunteers”. I’ve worked on preservation projects for 30 years and you’re telling me to watch PBS? Wow.

Apparently you've never seen the documentary about the woman who single handedly saved Miami's art deco district.

I'm merely recommending you make an effort to see it sometime.

It's quite good.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

As Devo once said: "For you, but not for me."

The failure of retail there (not to mention the bankruptcy of the building and the fall from grace of the developer) tells us much more than a rock band ever could.

[JFW657]

Just now, spenser1058 said:

The failure of retail there (not to mention the bankruptcy of the building and the fall from grace of the developer) tells us much more than a rock band ever could.

Nice theater, though.

And retail in downtown Orlando is almost non-existent anyway, so that's not really an accurate yard stick.

[orange87]

So me and my friends just got back from the Pro Bowl. It was raining and freezing and we left at halftime because the weather was unbearable. Anyway, I don't know why anyone would call that stadium a dump. It wasn't anything fancy but it was far from being a dump. My only complaint was that the parking lots weren't paved which made it a muddy mess to walk through in the rain. Other than that, everything about the stadium seemed fine.

[HankStrong]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 3:17 PM, Xander said:

This is what i've been thinking from the onset and wondering what exactly people were expecting. I also fail to see in any way whatsoever how the CB is considered a "dump" to people that have actually gone to it since the reno. My question is, in what sense of the word? Everything was modernized and renovated, the number of bathrooms was increased, vending areas got better, seats are significantly nicer.... how exactly is it a "dump"? I can't possibly understand how anyone who went to the CB BEFORE the renovation is calling what we have NOW a "dump". If you're comparing the lack of areas you'll likely never be in during your entire visit to the stadium, like suites, loge boxes, corporate areas, etc, then I think the issue people have is that it lacks optimal high end revenue streams from a group of about 5% of attendees. 

Sorry, but i've never bought the "it's a dump" argument and think it's incredibly short-sighted. 

I have been to the stadiums many times both before and after the renovations.  I was there yesterday in the pouring the rain.  I'll give you this: the seats in the lower bowl are much better than before.  That's basically it.  The access ways are cramped. The restrooms are poor.  The concessions are like a county fair, although there was a 4Rivers stand. 

This is LESS of a dump than it was.  I guess you could say that a 1979 Dodge Aspen without seats and no muffler is a junker.  That doesn't make a 1989 Dodge Reliant K with seats and a muffler less of a junker just because it isn't the former.

I'm not sure what stadiums you are visiting, but this is way below good.

Edited January 28, 2019 by HankStrong
Spelling

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I have been to the stadiums many times both before and after the renovations.  I was there yesterday in the pouring the rain.  I'll give you this: the seats in the lower bowl are much better than before.  That's basically it.  The access ways are cramped. The restrooms are poor.  The concessions are like a county fair, although there was a 4Rivers stand. 

This is LESS of a dump than it was.  I guess you could say that a 1979 Dodge Aspen without seats and no muffler is a junker.  That doesn't make a 1989 Dodge Reliant K with seats and a muffler less of a junker just because it isn't the former.

I'm not sure what stadiums you are visiting, but this is way below good.

Let's assume that what you're saying is basically true, heavy sarcasm aside.

Given that Orlando has no professional football team or regular revenue generating tenant there, how much classier do you think it should be? Keeping in mind that the more upgrades you want to make, the more expense you'd have to justify to the taxpayers.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I have been to the stadiums many times both before and after the renovations.  I was there yesterday in the pouring the rain.  I'll give you this: the seats in the lower bowl are much better than before.  That's basically it.  The access ways are cramped. The restrooms are poor.  The concessions are like a county fair, although there was a 4Rivers stand. 

This is LESS of a dump than it was.  I guess you could say that a 1979 Dodge Aspen without seats and no muffler is a junker.  That doesn't make a 1989 Dodge Reliant K with seats and a muffler less of a junker just because it isn't the former.

I'm not sure what stadiums you are visiting, but this is way below good.

Not sure about y’all, but I think I prefer the Aspen/Volare over the K-Car...

Edited January 28, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

Maybe if we got them to cover the seats in rich, Corinthian leather....

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

Maybe if we got them to cover the seats in rich, Corinthian leather....

*shouts, “De plane! De plane!”*

[JFW657]

7 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

*shouts, “De plane! De plane!”*

Tattoos being all the rage these days....

[spenser1058]

 

[HankStrong]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Let's assume that what you're saying is basically true, heavy sarcasm aside.

Given that Orlando has no professional football team or regular revenue generating tenant there, how much classier do you think it should be? Keeping in mind that the more upgrades you want to make, the more expense you'd have to justify to the taxpayers.

You obviously can't go back in time and re-do the remodeling.  I know that.  However, the renovations done in 2014 weren't done well.  The amount of money put into this place does not equal what is standing there.  They tore down everything that existed except the 1989 upper decks. 

I'm not sure on the taxpayer burden, but if you want to sell this place for events like the Pro Bowl or attract big events, this isn't it.  You can do stuff like Monster Jam here.  You can do a few bowl games, but this isn't a place that will ever attract big events.  We had friends from Europe with us and they said "Shouldn't a basic stadium in a place like Florida with such extreme weather have some sun protection or rain protection?" It should.

If you want to actually use the stadium more, it should be attractive.

[spenser1058]

30 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

You obviously can't go back in time and re-do the remodeling.  I know that.  However, the renovations done in 2014 weren't done well.  The amount of money put into this place does not equal what is standing there.  They tore down everything that existed except the 1989 upper decks. 

I'm not sure on the taxpayer burden, but if you want to sell this place for events like the Pro Bowl or attract big events, this isn't it.  You can do stuff like Monster Jam here.  You can do a few bowl games, but this isn't a place that will ever attract big events.  We had friends from Europe with us and they said "Shouldn't a basic stadium in a place like Florida with such extreme weather have some sun protection or rain protection?" It should.

If you want to actually use the stadium more, it should be attractive.

The Pro Bowl, the red-headed stepchild event of the NFL, was previously held in Hawaii at a stadium even more ignominious than the Citrus Bowl. I suspect they have the same issue, that there’s not a pro team using it.

It will be interesting to see if, short of convincing the Bucs to move to Orlando,  there’s a way to make a pro stadium of a facility with no team to defray the costs. So far, it apparently hasn’t happened elsewhere in the U.S.

Edited January 28, 2019 by spenser1058

[codypet]

3 hours ago, HankStrong said:

I have been to the stadiums many times both before and after the renovations.  I was there yesterday in the pouring the rain.  I'll give you this: the seats in the lower bowl are much better than before.  That's basically it.  The access ways are cramped. The restrooms are poor.  The concessions are like a county fair, although there was a 4Rivers stand. 

This is LESS of a dump than it was.  I guess you could say that a 1979 Dodge Aspen without seats and no muffler is a junker.  That doesn't make a 1989 Dodge Reliant K with seats and a muffler less of a junker just because it isn't the former.

I'm not sure what stadiums you are visiting, but this is way below good.

As someone who currently owns an early 80's Dodge product:  "Thems fightin words" 

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, codypet said:

As someone who currently owns an early 80's Dodge product:  "Thems fightin words" 

*Sends codypet a box of Lee Iacocca’s cigars and remembers Henry Ford II’s (The Deuce) words when he fired “the Father of the Mustang” : “Sometimes there’s people you just don’t like”. *

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

You obviously can't go back in time and re-do the remodeling.  I know that.  However, the renovations done in 2014 weren't done well.  The amount of money put into this place does not equal what is standing there.  They tore down everything that existed except the 1989 upper decks. 

I'm not sure on the taxpayer burden, but if you want to sell this place for events like the Pro Bowl or attract big events, this isn't it.  You can do stuff like Monster Jam here.  You can do a few bowl games, but this isn't a place that will ever attract big events.  We had friends from Europe with us and they said "Shouldn't a basic stadium in a place like Florida with such extreme weather have some sun protection or rain protection?" It should.

If you want to actually use the stadium more, it should be attractive.

Well, it sounds like they're looking to put another $60 million into upgrades, which is certainly justified, given the economic boost the college bowl games and Pro Bowl have provided the area. I don't know how far $60 million will go, but I don't think it would pay for a roof.

That having been said, it certainly seems like the folks who choose the college bowl and PB venues were happy enough with the stadium to locate the games here, with the PB having been here for the past what... three seasons? 

Besides, I think we need to keep in mind that the stadium is just one factor in the equation. 

Orlando has a lot of other things going for it that make it a hugely attractive venue to play football here in January. The (usually) awesome weather being one, the fantastic, second to almost nowhere hotel amenities and the other unique attractions we have to entertain the fans and players during the days leading up to the game.

What other city has a Disney/ESPN Wide World of Sports, etc, etc, etc.?

None.

A state of the art, covered stadium with first rate gourmet restaurants and beautifully appointed restrooms with ferns, waterfalls, soft music, bidets and attendants in tuxedos to pat your hands dry with fine linen napkins would be nice, but unrealistic for a stadium that sits empty around 360 days of the year.

(Note: I was just being facetious in that last paragraph)  

43 minutes ago, codypet said:

As someone who currently owns an early 80's Dodge product:  "Thems fightin words" 

Wow. I thought I was the only person in the entire USA who owned a vehicle that old!!! 

'83 Nissan pickup, here. (though I don't drive it anymore)

[HankStrong]

39 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

A state of the art, covered stadium with first rate gourmet restaurants and beautifully appointed restrooms with ferns, waterfalls, soft music, bidets and attendants in tuxedos to pat your hands dry with fine linen napkins would be nice, but unrealistic for a stadium that sits empty around 360 days of the year.

(Note: I was just being facetious in that last paragraph)  

 

I know you were playing around, but a roof or dome or covered stadium isn't what my friends were discussing.  Generally speaking, modern sports stadiums have some sun/rain protection when they are in areas prone to bad weather.  It's not an indoor stadium, but offers a bit of cover.

 

On a serious note, it's not empty 360 days a year is it?  That can't be.  Maybe it is??