Georgia Population Figures

[gah]

I don't think metro means CSA...just MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) since the word is short for metropolitan. Here's a link that discusses metropolitan areas (and they also subsitute the word metro).

Census definition of Metropolitan and Mircopolitan Areas

I think the purpose of a CSA was just to establish that a relationship does exist between two or more metros or micros, but other than that when looking statistics for most anything else, MSA statistics are only used and when talking about metros or micros most are talking about MSA's. One thing that I noticed is that the census website doesn't really compare CSA's to MSA's either. It's like to them they are two different animals. They also don't have a lot of information on CSA's outside of population and and a few other things.

Thanx for input --- but to me "metro" is like a cat -- it has 9 lives and does not have to mean MSA. When I speak of "metro" Atlanta" -- in a vacuum and without any context -- I can mean one thing and the person to whom I am speaking can understand it in an entirely different way. of course the census site will use "metro" as shorthand for MSA --- AFTER it has ALREADY defined MSA. Using "metro" without a predicate, however, is ambiguous. At least to me.

Sure MSA and CSA are different cats -- to continue the mixed metaphor. And certainly no need to have a lot of formal info comparing them -- since anyone can add the figures for the constituent MSA's together and then make any comparisons they want between any given CSA and any given SMA.

My sole point is (and always has been) that == putting aside for the moment what the questioner may have meant by "metro" and regardless of whether the census compares MSAs and CSAs -- is it just possible (not mandtory) that, when comparing the "eeconomies" of second tier cities, we should consider the stats for closely alligned CSA's (Like Macon-WR -- which I believe was formerly 1 MSA -- and C-A-O -- which may be on the verge of becoming 1 MSA) and not automatically and slavishly assume that the comparisons be based on MSAs all round.

Assume that (and I am NOT suggesting it will happen!) the Census Bureau decided that Augusta SMA should now be Augusta-Aiken CSA composed of Augusta SMA and Aiken SMA. Would an accurate reflection of the Augusta economy be the stats solely for Augusta SMA or should the stats for Aiken SMA be combined to get a true and accurate answer to the "metro Augusta economy" question?

Having now tried to make that same point several times, I hope that I have now been successful?

[PJA]

Thanx for input --- but to me "metro" is like a cat -- it has 9 lives and does not have to mean MSA. When I speak of "metro" Atlanta" -- in a vacuum and without any context -- I can mean one thing and the person to whom I am speaking can understand it in an entirely different way. of course the census site will use "metro" as shorthand for MSA --- AFTER it has ALREADY defined MSA. Using "metro" without a predicate, however, is ambiguous. At least to me.

Sure MSA and CSA are different cats -- to continue the mixed metaphor. And certainly no need to have a lot of formal info comparing them -- since anyone can add the figures for the constituent MSA's together and then make any comparisons they want between any given CSA and any given SMA.

My sole point is (and always has been) that == putting aside for the moment what the questioner may have meant by "metro" and regardless of whether the census compares MSAs and CSAs -- is it just possible (not mandtory) that, when comparing the "eeconomies" of second tier cities, we should consider the stats for closely alligned CSA's (Like Macon-WR -- which I believe was formerly 1 MSA -- and C-A-O -- which may be on the verge of becoming 1 MSA) and not automatically and slavishly assume that the comparisons be based on MSAs all round.

Assume that (and I am NOT suggesting it will happen!) the Census Bureau decided that Augusta SMA should now be Augusta-Aiken CSA composed of Augusta SMA and Aiken SMA. Would an accurate reflection of the Augusta economy be the stats solely for Augusta SMA or should the stats for Aiken SMA be combined to get a true and accurate answer to the "metro Augusta economy" question?

Having now tried to make that same point several times, I hope that I have now been successful?

Okay let's say North Augusta didn't exist and the area between Aiken And Augusta was mostly undeveloped and Aiken became it's own MSA. Then no I wouldn't include their statistics when talking about Augusta' metro economy because even though they would be in the same MSA, it would seem like two totally different places with two very distinct identities and their relationship would have to be much different than it is now.

I do find it odd that people use Aiken breaking away from Augusta as an example. That would be like Stone Mountain breaking away from Atlanta. It would actually be easier for Thomson GA or Waynesboro GA to break away from the metro since they are not part of the urbanized area. But everyone picks Aiken because it's in another state. Aiken is just another town in the metro, just like Stone Mountain in Atlanta, or Pooler in Savannah.

I think what is happening is that some may be trying to compare Aiken and Augusta's relationship to lets say Macon and Warner Robins or Columbus and A-O's relationship. But there is a huge difference and that is that Aiken and Augusta, have another nice sized city (North Augusta) between them and North Augusta lies in Aiken County and is only a few miles from Aiken. North Augusta fills most of the gap between Aiken and Augusta. The reason why North Augusta exists is because Augusta borders South Carolina so when Augusta expands, to the north, some of that was going to go in Aiken County. Let's just imagine that the Georgia and South Carolina border didn't exist and North Augusta was in fact part of Augusta's city limits. Then Augusta would be even closer to Aiken than it already is.

If the relationship between Macon and Warner Robbins or Columbus and AO starts to become stronger and there are some towns in between them, then those towns would experience growth much like North Augusta has, and it would be easier for them to become a single metro. If there are no towns between them then both metros would have to sprawl a little more and then they would become one metro, as the resdients living in the sprawl area would travel between both Macon and Warner Robins, or Columbus and AO. In any event, the closer interaction between two towns, the more development happens between them.

In closing this might all be a moot point anyway, because there may be enough interaction and development between the two metros that in 2010 they may in fact become one metro.

[gah]

Okay let's say North Augusta didn't exist and the area between Aiken And Augusta was mostly undeveloped and Aiken became it's own MSA. Then no I wouldn't include their statistics when talking about Augusta' metro economy because even though they would be in the same MSA, it would seem like two totally different places with two very distinct identities.

I think what is happening is that some may be trying to compare Aiken and Augusta's relationship to lets say Macon and Warner Robins or Columbus and A-O's relationship. But there is a huge difference and that is that Aiken and Augusta, have another nice sized city (North Augusta) between them and North Augusta lies in Aiken County and is only a few miles from Aiken. North Augusta fills most of the gap between Aiken and Augusta. The reason why North Augusta exists is because Augusta borders South Carolina so when Augusta expands, to the north, some of that was going to go in Aiken County. Let's just imagine that the Georgia and South Carolina border didn't exist and North Augusta was in fact part of Augusta's city limits. Then it would only be a few miles from Aiken.

[/quot

I -- for one -- am not drawing a present comparison between A-A and C-A-O. I believe I have posted on why they are NOT similar at present.

And no one can (or at least should) dispute that M-WR and A-A are not now clearly analogous -- in that one is currently a CSA and the other is an MSA.

ALL I am trying to suggest is that MSA may be too narrow a standard for comparing economies in all circumstances. Here's why

A city exists between C and A-O. Its in Lee County and called Smiths or Smiths Station. If the Al state line did not exist, then Smiths would be in Columbus city limits and then only a few miles would lie be between C and A-O (Lets change the name of Smiths and hypothetically call it N. Columbus, AL) Yes, right NOW more miles between C and "N. Columbus" than between N. Augusta and A -- but still a relatively few miles. And Smiths is one of the fastest growng cities n AL. I believe the same scenerio is true with M and WR -- in fact, they once were in one MSA I think. Considering THAT, my point is that PERHAPS it MAY be more accurate to use C-A- O and M-WR CSA figures when comparing "metro economies."

Apparently you subscribe to the rigid notion that unless and till a CSA formerly merges into a single MSA, then the CSA can NEVER be cited in connection with a "metro" stat under ANY conditions or circumstances. I am proposing a more relaxed standard whereby -- under certain conditions and circumstances (like when a CSA is APPROACHING or nearing being analogous to what exits with Augusta MSA), then there MAY be reason to use the CSA stats to gain a clearer picture and to remove any distortions that can result from looking at raw MSA stats. That is simply my opinion -- I have no beef with the census or with Augusta's MSA status. I a simply trying to establish whether there MAY not be an independent standard whereby we can more nearly be comparing raisins and raisins -- regardless of whether one set of "raisins" is -- according to a government definition -- actually still a bunch of grapes and not quite yet at the raisin-stage.

[PJA]

I -- for one -- am not drawing a present comparison between A-A and C-A-O. I believe I have posted on why they are NOT similar at present.

And no one can (or at least should) dispute that M-WR and A-A are not now clearly analogous -- in that one is currently a CSA and the other is an MSA.

ALL I am trying to suggest is that MSA may be too narrow a standard for comparing economies in all circumstances. Here's why

A city exists between C and A-O. Its in Lee County and called Smiths or Smiths Station. If the Al state line did not exist, then Smiths would be in Columbus city limits and then only a few miles would lie be between C and A-O (Lets change the name of Smiths and hypothetically call it N. Columbus, AL) Yes, right NOW more miles between C and "N. Columbus" than between N. Augusta and A -- but still a relatively few miles. And Smiths is one of the fastest growng cities n AL. I believe the same scenerio is true with M and WR -- in fact, they once were in one MSA I think. Considering THAT, my point is that PERHAPS it MAY be more accurate to use C-A- O and M-WR CSA figures when comparing "metro economies."

Apparently you subscribe to the rigid notion that unless and till a CSA formerly merges into a single MSA, then the CSA can NEVER be cited in connection with a "metro" stat under ANY conditions or circumstances. I am proposing a more relaxed standard whereby -- under certain conditions and circumstances (like when a CSA is APPROACHING or nearing being analogous to what exits with Augusta MSA), then there MAY be reason to use the CSA stats to gain a clearer picture and to remove any distortions that can result from looking at raw MSA stats. That is simply my opinion -- I have no beef with the census or with Augusta's MSA status. I a simply trying to establish whether there MAY not be an independent standard whereby we can more nearly be comparing raisins and raisins -- regardless of whether one set of "raisins" is -- according to a government definition -- actually still a bunch of grapes and not quite yet at the raisin-stage.

I understand what you're saying. But you asked what was meant by metro. I think to most people they mean the MSA and if not then they should specify CSA in order to avoid confusion. There has to be some sort of standard.

I know that Atlanta's CSA extends all the way into Alabama and I have never thought of their metro as extending into Alabama or being large enough to do so. I'm sure most people would agree that metro Atlanta doesn not extend into Alabama yet their CSA does. I know when I travel to Albama, you can tell you have left metro Atlanta before you get to Alabama..that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any ties with the any of the cities between itself and Alabama.

I know week or so ago when you asked the question about CSA's and MSA's, I did say that you probably could compare them, but after the research I have done on these statistics the past few days, I have to retract that statement. One reason being that if you compare a CSA to an MSA, you are basically compaing two MSA's to one MSA. When I did find some information on CSA's in the census site, there were no MSA's listed. When looking under Georgia, you had the Atlanta CSA, the Macon Warner Robbins CSA, the Savannah CSA and the Columbus AO CSA. Augusta was nowhere to be found which was very telling to me. That lets me know that the US census themselves don't compare the two.

For the Georgia area, I think if you did compare the CSA's to the MSA's it really wouldn't change that much in regards to the ranking. Columbus's MSA may be larger than Savannah's..I'm not sure, but that would be the only difference, so you probably could get away with comparing MSA's to CSA's in Georgia, but in other states you may have a harder time doing that. To be honest, even in Georgia you would have a hard time. Really the only way you can compare MSA's to CSA's is population becasue other statitstics like payroll, crime rate (as I will post later) are not listed in CSA terms. So you would be comparing the MSA's and CSA's in some things, but comparing just the MSA's in other things which would be uneven.

[PJA]

The Crime rate in Georgia by MSA . This information was taken from the FBI website and represents 2005 the latest year for their results.

Violent Crime

1. Augusta 392.3 (safest)

2. Columbus 422.1

3. Atlanta 492

4. Macon 501.6

5. Savannah 582.9 (most unsafe)

Property Crimes

1. Atlanta 4115.2 (safest)

2. Augusta 4518.5

3. Savannah 4737.7

4. Columbus 5468.6

5. Macon 6180.7 (most unsafe)

Again I couldn't find the stats for the CSAs, just the MSAs.

[Spartan]

I understand yerocal's point about the Warner Robins MSA, and I think I can clarify what he means. For example, look at the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA in South Carolina. Before the last Census, much like Macon-Warner Robins, Greenville, Spartanburg and Anderson acted as one large MSA. After the last Census they were split up. Anderson and Spartanburg now act as their own MSAs, thus "reducing" the population of the once larger MSA. However, the CSA statistic was created to show looser but still very real economic relationships. The Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson CSA exists and is actually larger than the old MSA.

So what y'all need to understand is that the MSA counties are going to be the core counties for obtaining statistics, as these counties have the strongest economic relationship to the core city. CSA boundaries are relevant, but you can't just arbitrarily use them to make your point.

When comparing urban areas there is going to be a lot of ambiguous data, and a lot of variables to consider. The major factor behind this is that political boundaries are as arbitrary as you can get. Thats why its important to look at Urban Area statistics and economic data to see what the real state of things is.

Lets take a look at the 2004 Gross Metropolitan Product of Georgia MSA's. GMP uses the same principle as the GDP statistic.

As always, the Georgia economy is a function of the Atlanta metro area, which is home to 56%

of state jobs and 60% of its income.

								   2004 GMP-%Gross State Product 


Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA  $198.13 57.7 

Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC	   $12.64  3.7 (Aiken County, SC  $4.91 3.6) ($17.28 total)

Savannah, GA						 $11.98  3.5 

Columbus, GA-AL					  $10.56  3.1 (Auburn-Opelika, AL $3.33 2.4 ) ($13.89 total)

Macon, GA							 $8.45  2.5 

Dalton, GA							$7.21  2.1 

Athens-Clarke County, GA			  $6.08  1.8 

Gainesville, GA					   $5.95  1.7 

Albany, GA							$5.51  1.6 

Warner Robins, GA					 $4.69  1.4 

Valdosta, GA						  $4.48  1.3 

Rome, GA							  $3.65  1.1 

Brunswick, GA						 $3.33  1.0 

Chattanooga, TN-GA*				   $3.24  0.9 (represents portion within GA only)

Hinesville-Fort Stewart, GA		   $2.71  0.8 


Sum of Metro Areas				  $288.60 84.1

As far as MSA's go, Augusta seems to consistently be the second largest in all respects, followed by Columbus, Savannah, and Macon. Macon's retail growth can't be discounted though.... but I suspect that is more of a sign that its retail centers are either old and/or outdated, and possibly that there is a significant gap between the amount of retail there is and what it could really support.

[gah]

I understand what you're saying. But you asked what was meant by metro. I think to most people they mean the MSA and if not then they should specify CSA in order to avoid confusion. There has to be some sort of standard.

I know that Atlanta's CSA extends all the way into Alabama and I have never thought of their metro as extending into Alabama or being large enough to do so. I'm sure most people would agree that metro Atlanta doesn not extend into Alabama yet their CSA does. I know when I travel to Albama, you can tell you have left metro Atlanta before you get to Alabama..that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any ties with the any of the cities between itself and Alabama.

I know week or so ago when you asked the question about CSA's and MSA's, I did say that you probably could compare them, but after the research I have done on these statistics the past few days, I have to retract that statement. One reason being that if you compare a CSA to an MSA, you are basically compaing two MSA's to one MSA. When I did find some information on CSA's in the census site, there were no MSA's listed. When looking under Georgia, you had the Atlanta CSA, the Macon Warner Robbins CSA, the Savannah CSA and the Columbus AO CSA. Augusta was nowhere to be found which was very telling to me. That lets me know that the US census themselves don't compare the two.

For the Georgia area, I think if you did compare the CSA's to the MSA's it really wouldn't change that much in regards to the ranking. Columbus's MSA may be larger than Savannah's..I'm not sure, but that would be the only difference, so you probably could get away with comparing MSA's to CSA's in Georgia, but in other states you may have a harder time doing that. To be honest, even in Georgia you would have a hard time. Really the only way you can compare MSA's to CSA's is population becasue other statitstics like payroll, crime rate (as I will post later) are not listed in CSA terms. So you would be comparing the MSA's and CSA's in some things, but comparing just the MSA's in other things which would be uneven.

I am not -- and never have -- suggesting comparisons of MSAs and CSAs generally. My focus is on Ga only. More precisely, on C-A-O and M-WR. I dont know enough about Savannah to make any comment. More precisely still, the focus is on "economies" of the Ga. 2d-tier cities.

Obviously, Atlanta CSA is irrelevant to discussion of "economies" of 2d-tier cities. I am aware that Census does not compare CSA and MSA. That is exactly why I originally said that maybe we (ie, someone other than Census) should have several charts to compare "metro economies" using different criteria so that we could chose which one to use.

I agree that need a standard. However, I also believe that if mean MSA should say so, otherwise "metro" (with a small "m" is ambiguous. When I hear "metro" Atlanta I do not think Atlanta CSA. When I hear "metro Columbus" however, I do hear A-O. That is based on TV news and newspapers which cover A-O as local and also my personal experience seeing how the two MSAs have grown closer and closer over the recent years.

Dont care how the "metros" rank. Only care that they be ranked according to a fair standard and not willing to concede that Census pronouncement of MSA status the only fair gauge. But, as I said, that is only my opinion and I understand and respect that it is not necessarily everyone elses.

[augga706]

Here is the 10 fastest growing states. Georgia is number 4

People Statistics > Population > Percent change, 2000-2005

#1 Nevada: 20.8%

#2 Arizona: 15.8%

#3 Florida: 11.3%

#4 Georgia: 10.8%

#5 Utah: 10.6%

#6 Idaho: 10.4%

#7 Texas: 9.6%

#8 Colorado: 8.4%

#9 North Carolina: 7.9%

#10 Delaware: 7.6%

[yerocal]

Decatur is not has never been a metro. Decatur is within 15 miles of downtown Atlanta. Warner Robins is not. You cannot divide true suburbs of Atlanta from the core and not do the same with Warner Robins/Macon. Warner Robins is not suburban Macon. Decatur is suburban Atlanta. In fact its an inner suburb. It lies solely within I-285. A question can not be possed and once information is provided then the goal post are moved. Either we do metros or we do CSA's. In question initially possed asked for metros. Sorry that I gave information regarding the question possed. Gainesville is a seperate metro from Atlanta...therefore it's numbers are not added to Atlanta's total. If Spartan wanted CSA's then I would not have provided the information I did.

Hold up, Where are you from obvoiusly not from GA Because my dear Warner Robins is only 15 miles from Macon's Downtown and lies solely between I-75 from the west and 247 on the east which run directly from Macon and I totally agree, that the chart is not a true reflection of Macon's economy, since WR figures should indeed be combined, Macon & WR are to close and interact too much be seperate and for whatever reasons the US census, the state or who ever has the ability to do so was just a STUPID move... I never said that Decatur should be seperate from Atlanta i use it as an example of how stupid it looks to take a surburb and change it into it's own metro....when it doesn't even have a DT area or Judical court center or Etc., It's all in perry, in that case it should be called metro perry... if you know the history WR, it was a village that formed around a small train depot that took growth after RAF base came in to the present. The City Of WR is nothing but huge residential/commerical spot, that seem more of a surburb to me......With out the AF base and Macon, WR would be nothing.... And this is not just numbers or from some out dated chart which has no true reflection on this area which is only a estimate, but i speak of actuallity and from 27years of living experience in this area...

[Spartan]

Hold up, Where are you from obvoiusly not from GA Because my dear Warner Robins is only 15 miles from Macon's Downtown and lies solely between I-75 from the west and 247 on the east which run directly from Macon and I totally agree, that the chart is not a true reflection of Macon's economy, since WR figures should indeed be combined, Macon & WR are to close and interact too much be seperate and for whatever reasons the US census, the state or who ever has the ability to do so was just a STUPID move... I never said that Decatur should be seperate from Atlanta i use it as an example of how stupid it looks to take a surburb and change it into it's own metro....when it doesn't even have a DT area or Judical court center or Etc., It's all in perry, in that case it should be called metro perry... if you know the history WR, it was a village that formed around a small train depot that took growth after RAF base came in to the present. The City Of WR is nothing but huge residential/commerical spot, that seem more of a surburb to me......With out the AF base and Macon, WR would be nothing.... And this is not just numbers or from some out dated chart which has no true reflection on this area which is only a estimate, but i speak of actuallity and from 27years of living experience in this area...

The relationship between the two is not as strong as you think it is. The MSA is determined based on the urban area geography as well as economic and social ties. Commuter data and employment stats are a major factor. It is not some arbitrary definition that someone comes up with. Clearly there are ties between the two, but they are not strong enough to be considered one "MSA." Thats why the CSA concept was created. It shows areas that have an economic/social relationship with other areas, but that aren't strong enough to act as one entity.

[yerocal]

The relationship between the two is not as strong as you think it is. The MSA is determined based on the urban area geography as well as economic and social ties. Commuter data and employment stats are a major factor. It is not some arbitrary definition that someone comes up with. Clearly there are ties between the two, but they are not strong enough to be considered one "MSA." Thats why the CSA concept was created. It shows areas that have an economic/social relationship with other areas, but that aren't strong enough to act as one entity.

I undestand what you are saying but Macon and Warner Robins interact on everything from local business changs( banks, Dealerships, colleges & Etc) to advertisments, TV boardcasting and Middle Ga Economic Development; There alot of Commuting between the two mostly because all the jobs and shoppings are in Macon other than the AF base which is only major employer in WR the others are all in Macon.. Macon is the major Hub for 22 counties in this area including WR/houston county, there is no way the interact of the two is the reason why macon and WR is considered seperate. The only thing that Macon and WR do seperate is local city /county goverment which for WR is in Perry... Other than that i can't see how Macon and Warner Robins are so seperate... this is only interaction they don't particpate with each other... It may be true that they don't interact enough but i can't see it and if you would ask any body who is from or have lived in this area even from WR they would refer to it's as a suburb of Macon, but right now Macon is in about to do a huge 360 degree expanion of the entire Macon city limts to incorprate the large amount of new commerical & residential growth out side the city and if Macon & WR are so seperated, it want be for too long because Macon and WR city limts are rapidly approaching each other.....In about 3-5 years you want be able to tell what is WR or what is Macon..... I don't think i will be surprise to see what the US census has to say about growth, when the next evalution is done for Macon & WR... Because you can see with your own eyes and have experience in the last 2 years the amount growth has taken place in this area....

[Spartan]

All of the reasons you stated are why they are part of the same CSA and not the same MSA.

[gah]

When comparing urban areas there is going to be a lot of ambiguous data, and a lot of variables to consider. The major factor behind this is that political boundaries are as arbitrary as you can get. Thats why its important to look at Urban Area statistics and economic data to see what the real state of things is.

Very true. Here is a concrete example. Phenix City AL is directly across the river from Columbus. Literally, only yards (well, maybe feet now considering the drought) of water separates them. PC has ~ 25,000 people and it is the county seat for Russell County. Russell County is in the Columbus MSA.

Very similar to N. Augusta/Augusta -- except that N.A is not, I gather, the county seat of Ailken County.

Until the 1920's, PC was in Lee County, not Russell. Back then, a deal was brokered whereby Lee County swapped PC (urban) to Russell County in exchange for a larger portion of land (rural) at the far end of Russell County.

Thus, had this boundary not been changed slightly and redrawn in the 1920's, then PC --directly across from Columbus, like N. Augusta/Augusta -- would still be in Lee County and presumably the entirety of Lee County (including A-O) -- like the entirety of Aiken County -- would then be included in the Columbus MSA. However, because, the boundary was changed and there is a "gap" between Columbus/PC and A-O, Lee County is considered a part of the CSA.

The lesson is that minor changes in political boundaries can and do have significant consequences on the MSA/CSA designation.

Which confirms the point that reliance on MSA data is helpful and important but not necessarily Holy Scripture.

EDIT: I doublechecked my memory of local history and discovered that the transfer of PC from Lee to Russell County was in 1932. Sorry -- off by a decade at worst and 3 years at best!

[Damon]

Very true. Here is a concrete example. Phenix City AL is directly across the river from Columbus. Literally, only yards (well, maybe feet now considering the drought) of water separates them. PC has ~ 25,000 people and it is the county seat for Russell County. Russell County is in the Columbus MSA.

Very similar to N. Augusta/Augusta -- except that N.A is not, I gather, the county seat of Ailken County.

Until the 1920's, PC was in Lee County, not Russell. Back then, a deal was brokered whereby Lee County swapped PC (urban) to Russell County in exchange for a larger portion of land (rural) at the far end of Russell County.

Thus, had this boundary not been changed slightly and redrawn in the 1920's, then PC --directly across from Columbus, like N. Augusta/Augusta -- would still be in Lee County and presumably the entirety of Lee County (including A-O) -- like the entirety of Aiken County -- would then be included in the Columbus MSA. However, because, the boundary was changed and there is a "gap" between Columbus/PC and A-O, Lee County is considered a part of the CSA.

The lesson is that minor changes in political boundaries can and do have significant consequences on the MSA/CSA designation.

Which confirms the point that reliance on MSA data is helpful and important but not necessarily Holy Scripture.

EDIT: I doublechecked my memory of local history and discovered that the transfer of PC from Lee to Russell County was in 1932. Sorry -- off by a decade at worst and 3 years at best!

[Damon]

If Savannah's CSA included its neighboring South Carolina counties (Jasper and Beaufort), Savannah would take over the #2 spot surpassing Augusta/Aiken and it would continue to be #2 as both the Savannah and Hilton Head metros are growing at a much faster pace than Augusta and the other 2nd tier GA metros/CSA's. With the addition of Hilton Head, the CSA is over 500,000.

I don't think people dont realize the connection between Savannah and Hilton Head. The media, the tourism, Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport and the distance from downtown Savannah to Beaufort County is approx. 30 mins and the Hilton Head metro includes Jasper county which is right across the bridge from Savannah.

It appears that people forgot that the Savannah area is bustling and it honestly has a more diverse economy than any other 2nd tier city- tourism, military, the #4 largest port in the country, manufacturing.

Augusta, Macon, Columbus enthusiasts continue to ignore Savannah from these discussions. I would argue Savannah is clearly #2 in the state as has less reliance on Atlanta than anyone else and its area has the most potential for continued growth (economically and population).

[PJA]

If Savannah's CSA included its neighboring South Carolina counties (Jasper and Beaufort), Savannah would take over the #2 spot surpassing Augusta/Aiken and it would continue to be #2 as both the Savannah and Hilton Head metros are growing at a much faster pace than Augusta and the other 2nd tier GA metros/CSA's. With the addition of Hilton Head, the CSA is over 500,000.

I don't think people dont realize the connection between Savannah and Hilton Head. The media, the tourism, Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport and the distance from downtown Savannah to Beaufort County is approx. 30 mins and the Hilton Head metro includes Jasper county which is right across the bridge from Savannah.

It appears that people forgot that the Savannah area is bustling and it honestly has a more diverse economy than any other 2nd tier city- tourism, military, the #4 largest port in the country, manufacturing.

Augusta, Macon, Columbus enthusiasts continue to ignore Savannah from these discussions. I would argue Savannah is clearly #2 in the state as has less reliance on Atlanta than anyone else and its area has the most potential for continued growth (economically and population).

Savannah's CSA includes Hinesville and Fort stewart. Hilton Head is not included in their CSA and their population is only 394,036.

[gah]

If Savannah's CSA included its neighboring South Carolina counties (Jasper and Beaufort), Savannah would take over the #2 spot surpassing Augusta/Aiken and it would continue to be #2 as both the Savannah and Hilton Head metros are growing at a much faster pace than Augusta and the other 2nd tier GA metros/CSA's. With the addition of Hilton Head, the CSA is over 500,000.

I don't think people dont realize the connection between Savannah and Hilton Head. The media, the tourism, Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport and the distance from downtown Savannah to Beaufort County is approx. 30 mins and the Hilton Head metro includes Jasper county which is right across the bridge from Savannah.

It appears that people forgot that the Savannah area is bustling and it honestly has a more diverse economy than any other 2nd tier city- tourism, military, the #4 largest port in the country, manufacturing.

Augusta, Macon, Columbus enthusiasts continue to ignore Savannah from these discussions. I would argue Savannah is clearly #2 in the state as has less reliance on Atlanta than anyone else and its area has the most potential for continued growth (economically and population).

Cannot dispute your claim -- as it is your opinion. However, I do see a distinction between prior discussion regarding C-O-A and M-WR. In those two instances, the question is whether the EXISTING CSA is appropriate in comparing the economies of 2-d tier cities. Thus, to bring Savannah into THAT discussion, the question would be whether the EXISTING Savannah SMA or CSA is the proper entity for comparison with Augusta, Macon, and Columbus "metro" economies. As I said, I dont have an opinion on that because I am not familiar with how connected the other constituent parts of the Savannah CSA are (ie, the other constituent part of teh Savannah CSA being the Ft Stewart-Hinesville MSA, I think).

That is clearly different from whether SC counties -- which I gather are NOT now part of either the Savannah MSA or CSA -- should be included. It is one thing to say that an existing CSA is on the verge of becoming an MSA and, thus, is the proper entity for comparison with other MSA's and another thing to say that a hypothetical CSA is a proper entity for comparison with existing MSA's. Not that that is "wrong" -- just that it is not an analogous argument to whether EXISTING C-A-O and M-WR CSA's should be the benchmark for comparing economic numbers.

Dont think people necessarily "forget" about Savannah. Just seems that most posters are from the 3 fall line cities. Savannah --which is some what isolated from them and distinct in a lot of ways -- doesnt get much mention because, I suppose, most of us dont know enough about it to be able to make educated statements or assessments. That can be remedied Savannahans who are in the know made regular contributions.

[cocateho]

If Savannah's CSA included its neighboring South Carolina counties (Jasper and Beaufort), Savannah would take over the #2 spot surpassing Augusta/Aiken and it would continue to be #2 as both the Savannah and Hilton Head metros are growing at a much faster pace than Augusta and the other 2nd tier GA metros/CSA's. With the addition of Hilton Head, the CSA is over 500,000.

I don't think people dont realize the connection between Savannah and Hilton Head. The media, the tourism, Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport and the distance from downtown Savannah to Beaufort County is approx. 30 mins and the Hilton Head metro includes Jasper county which is right across the bridge from Savannah.

It appears that people forgot that the Savannah area is bustling and it honestly has a more diverse economy than any other 2nd tier city- tourism, military, the #4 largest port in the country, manufacturing.

Augusta, Macon, Columbus enthusiasts continue to ignore Savannah from these discussions. I would argue Savannah is clearly #2 in the state as has less reliance on Atlanta than anyone else and its area has the most potential for continued growth (economically and population).

the reason its not part of the csa right now is because theres just nothing between the two except highways. you have ridgeland and hardee ville and other small communities, but its all still fairly undeveloped. their is a strong connection between the two, transportation and buissness wise, and i think in the nex 10 - 15 years it will officially be one csa at that point, with jasper and liberty counties, and possibly effingham as well added to the msa. add those and even right now and you'd have an msa of approx. 465,000. now i dont know if we could add liberty because of the hinesville msa so without that it would still be about 400,000. now say you had about a 7% increase in population.(totally theoretical) with hinesville that'd be alost half a million.

that was all estimation but it gives you the basic idea.

[augga706]

If Savannah's CSA included its neighboring South Carolina counties (Jasper and Beaufort), Savannah would take over the #2 spot surpassing Augusta/Aiken and it would continue to be #2 as both the Savannah and Hilton Head metros are growing at a much faster pace than Augusta and the other 2nd tier GA metros/CSA's. With the addition of Hilton Head, the CSA is over 500,000.

I don't think people dont realize the connection between Savannah and Hilton Head. The media, the tourism, Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport and the distance from downtown Savannah to Beaufort County is approx. 30 mins and the Hilton Head metro includes Jasper county which is right across the bridge from Savannah.

It appears that people forgot that the Savannah area is bustling and it honestly has a more diverse economy than any other 2nd tier city- tourism, military, the #4 largest port in the country, manufacturing.

Augusta, Macon, Columbus enthusiasts continue to ignore Savannah from these discussions. I would argue Savannah is clearly #2 in the state as has less reliance on Atlanta than anyone else and its area has the most potential for continued growth (economically and population).

It has already been established by charts that augusta is number 2 in the state. Even with savannah's tourism, military, and their economy. Augusta is third in ga in tourism, and has the communication center of the u.s. in ft. gordon. Savannah is third in ga right behind augusta as far as economic importance in the state.

Also i doubt that savannah has any less reliance on atlanta than augusta does. When the olympics came to atlanta, augusta didn't recieve any benefit. They both are isolated away from atlanta unlike macon, and columbus who tend to lend on atlanta more.

If you add jasper & beaufort counties to savannah, im sure ppl from every second tier city would say how they could add counties to their msa or csa to.

[Spartan]

Beaufort County, SC is on the verge of becoming its own MSA. Its just barely short of the 50,000 mark for its urban area. I expect that Jasper County will be added to either a Beaufort or Savannah CSA. The growth around Hardeeville in the coming years is going to be astounding, and it will rapidly become a suburb of both. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Savannah-Beaufort-Hiltonhead MSA in 2010.

[gah]

Beaufort County, SC is on the verge of becoming its own MSA. Its just barely short of the 50,000 mark for its urban area. I expect that Jasper County will be added to either a Beaufort or Savannah CSA. The growth around Hardeeville in the coming years is going to be astounding, and it will rapidly become a suburb of both. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Savannah-Beaufort-Hiltonhead MSA in 2010.

I am curious as to whether you have an opinion you care to share on which counties will comprise the non=Atlanta MSA's (including in- and out-of-state parts) in GA after 2010 census and how they will rank at that time,

IE, will a S-B-H MSA surpass Augusta MSA? Surpass Columbus MSA? What if Columbus MSA then includes Lee County?

In interesting what-if exercise.

[socaguy]

I see Savannah growing by leaps and bounds over the next 10 years...probably all of coastal Georgia. Baby boomers are retiring and the coast is a hot place to be. Not to mention all the Floridians who want to live the Florida lifestyle (mild winter temps, access to beaches, etc.) but dont want to live in Florida.

[912]

Savannah is third in ga right behind augusta as far as economic importance in the state.

As the ports in Savannah are the economic engine that drives the rest of the state's economy, I'd love to see the proof that backs up your assertion.......

Beaufort County, SC is on the verge of becoming its own MSA. Its just barely short of the 50,000 mark for its urban area. I expect that Jasper County will be added to either a Beaufort or Savannah CSA. The growth around Hardeeville in the coming years is going to be astounding, and it will rapidly become a suburb of both. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Savannah-Beaufort-Hiltonhead MSA in 2010.

I agree. It's funny how there's plenty of interconnection between the areas now, but just not enough to seal the deal. It's also odd how one can be driving on US 17 in Jasper County, look ahead out over the marsh, and see Savannah laid out before you...yet you're not in the metro!

[PJA]

As the ports in Savannah are the economic engine that drives the rest of the state's economy, I'd love to see the proof that backs up your assertion.......

I agree. It's funny how there's plenty of interconnection between the areas now, but just not enough to seal the deal. It's also odd how one can be driving on US 17 in Jasper County, look ahead out over the marsh, and see Savannah laid out before you...yet you're not in the metro!

The proof is in the numbers that was posted further up. Atlanta was first, Augusta second and Savannah third.

[cocateho]

The proof is in the numbers that was posted further up. Atlanta was first, Augusta second and Savannah third.

that was talking about the cities. the ports are a different story. in terms business, yes, savannah is third, but the ports do provide pretty much all of the businesses in georgia with supplies. so in terms of trade i think savannah is definitly #1 since we provide the rest of georgia with the materials on which to build your wealth, even if savannah as a city isnt the wealthiest or biggest.