Tiers of US cities

[tocoto]

Toronto is important to Canadians. Canada has vast resource and that makes it more prominent a city. It is not a big city (yet) on the world stage or even compared to US cities like DC, Bos and SF stictly by the numbers. What it may have that makes it very important to the rest of the world is it's a mecca for freedom, jobs, safety, and stability outside the US. I don't know this and have no evidence. I think this is a big draw for London as well.

[Canuck]

How much larger is Boston than Toronto? (And just a reminder but lets compare apples to apples here).

Anyway regarding crime, here's a little chart from the city of Toronto's web page:

Crime Rates: 1999 (Per 100,000 people)

Source: Statistics Canada, TBOT, DOJ, FBI

Homicide / Rank --- Robbery / Rank --- Break-In / Rank

• Washington D.C. 45.5 / 1 --- 670.6 / 5 --- 971.9 / 22

• Saint Louis, MO 37.8 / 2 --- 811.3 / 3 --- 2,282.7 / 1

• Atlanta, GA 34.5 / 3 --- 983.0 / 1 --- 2,069.0 / 2

• New Orleans, LA 33.7 / 4 --- 580.1 / 7 --- 1,194.1 / 15

• Kansas City, MO 24.8 / 5 --- 553.7 / 9 --- 1,923.3 / 4

• Chicago, IL 23.3 / 6 --- 743.8 / 4 --- 1,102.1 / 17

• Milwaukee, WI 21.1 / 7 --- 532.7 / 10 --- 1,098.3 / 18

• Dallas, TX 17.5 / 8 --- 583.7 / 6 --- 1,802.2 / 5

• Phoenix, AZ 17.3 / 9 --- 311.6 / 16 --- 1,299.4 / 12

• Miami, FL 16.9 / 10 --- 824.8 / 2 --- 1,965.1 / 3

• Hartford, CT 15.8 / 11 --- 576.6 / 8 --- 1,162.2 / 16

• Fort Worth, TX 13.5 / 12 --- 290.7 / 18 --- 1,507.7 / 8

• Houston, TX 13.4 / 13 --- 464.6 / 13 --- 1,376.8 / 10

• Oklahoma City, OK 12.1 / 14 --- 229.5 / 20 --- 1,733.7 / 6

• Los Angeles, CA 11.7 / 15 --- 397.9 / 15 --- 594.2 / 26

• Buffalo, NY 10.4 / 16 --- 477.2 / 12 --- 1,434.6 / 9

• New York, NY 9.1 / 17 --- 490.6 / 11 --- 550.0 / 27

• Seattle, WA 8.4 / 18 --- 305.1 / 17 --- 1,202.2 / 14

• Boston, MA 5.5 / 19 --- 440.8 / 14 --- 610.0 / 25

• San Diego, CA 4.7 / 20 --- 150.3 / 23 --- 544.7 / 28

• Vancouver, BC 2.8 / 21 --- 217.1 / 21 --- 1,600.8 / 7

• Winnipeg, MB 2.2 / 22 --- 267.7 / 19 --- 1,235.5 / 13

• Edmonton, AB 2.2 23 --- 136.7 / 24 --- 1,017.7 / 20

• Montreal, PQ 2.0 / 24 --- 193.9 / 22 --- 1,312.4 / 11

• Ottawa, ON 1.5 / 25 --- 104.8 / 27 --- 883.0 / 23

• Calgary, AB 1.4 / 26 --- 108.8 / 26 --- 1,013.5 / 21

• Toronto, ON 1.3 / 27 --- 115.1 / 25 --- 611.9 / 24

• London, ON 1.2 / 28 --- 56.1 / 28 --- 1,074.1 / 19

Note: The population figures for Canadian cities correspond to the jurisdiction of the individual police forces.

For U.S. cities, population totals in the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Report 1998 were used.

In Canada "Homicide" includes first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide; in the in the United States it includes murder and non-negligent manslaughter. For the purposes of comparison, burglaries in the United States have been included under the term "Break-in."

-------

So if Boston were the size of Toronto (~2.5 million city population), this chart suggests Boston's homicide total would be 4 times Toronto's or ~240.

@ Scott, 1 murder is bad, 60 is worse. It can never be 'too low', only acceptable when it reaches 0.

[Cotuit]

We discussed what "Greater Boston" is a while ago on the Boston Skyscraperguy Forum and in discussion we compared it to Toronto and Montreal.

Now "Greater Boston" is not the government's metro region definition, it is an ill defined collections of towns and small cities that surround Boston. We generally all agreed that Toronto, Boston, and Montreal are pretty much the same size when comparing each city's "Greater" area.

As for Boston's homicide rate. You can't take it's current rate and say that if it were 2.5 million people, it would be exponentially larger. If Boston had amalgamated it's region to attain a 2.5 million city population figure the way Toronto has, the surrounding areas would retain their character and low homicide rates. Boston's rate per thousand would most likely drop if it amalgamated it's region.

[monsoon]

[ClevelandNO!]

how was detroit left of the murder/per 100,000 list?

anywho, based on my rough math, detroit is about about 35 per 100,000

[Canuck]

We discussed what "Greater Boston" is a while ago on the Boston Skyscraperguy Forum and in discussion we compared it to Toronto and Montreal.

Now "Greater Boston" is not the government's metro region definition, it is an ill defined collections of towns and small cities that surround Boston. We generally all agreed that Toronto, Boston, and Montreal are pretty much the same size when comparing each city's "Greater" area.

As for Boston's homicide rate. You can't take it's current rate and say that if it were 2.5 million people, it would be exponentially larger. If Boston had amalgamated it's region to attain a 2.5 million city population figure the way Toronto has, the surrounding areas would retain their character and low homicide rates. Boston's rate per thousand would most likely drop if it amalgamated it's region.

You're absolutely right about not being able to convert the Toronto number into an appropriate Boston number just by multiplying. I was merely illustrating to show what the rate would be in comparitive cities, and I thought I had a disclaimer in my statement showing that obviously the number would not be so cut and dry, but I guess I ended up not including it for whatever reason.

Now I've always been under the impression that Toronto, Montreal, Boston are close in terms of population. So I have to ask where people are getting this notion that Boston is somehow Toronto's superior in terms of # of people.

[BrandonTO416]

Its also true that Boston is one of the best cities in America with far lower crime then Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans, etc. B)

[tocoto]

Boston has a metro of ~6 million in about 6000 sq mi. I don't know the numbers for Montreal or Toronto. DT Boston is about 40 miles from DT Providece and the two intertwine in many ways. Providence metro is about 1.6 million in somewhere around 1000-1600 sqmi. Portland ME., to the north, abuts the Boston metro with about 600k. I don't know how many sqmi.

IMO Boston is bigger than Montreal by a fair margin population wise, which doesn't mean it's better. Probably closer to Toronto, but you may be surprised that Boston has a bigger pop. Southeastern NE has one of the highest pop densities in the US.

That might be enough info to compare populations. I think Canadian cities are more compact, and the surrounding countryside is less dense, so the cities have a different feel compared to US cities.

For comparison, Boston's GMP is ~$318B according to the US conference of Mayors.

Boston is in the shadow of NYC to some degree, but it has it's own identity and surpasses NYC in some fields (tech and biotech for example) It is still a very wealthy and prominent city in eduaction, medicine, hi/bio tech, finance, insurance. Hell, Gillette is still based in Boston making razors and carrying the flag for old style manufacturing.

[BrandonTO416]

Boston and Toronto are ROUGHLY the same size in population; however Toronto is more centralized. Boston has the more grand urban center though due to its age. It really is an interesting comparison. Montreal has the historic edge like Boston; however it doesn't have a great deal of people outside the central city region.

But what gives Toronto the edge, and remember this is just my opinion, is the fact that Toronto is again the largest city in all of Canada. It is the hub of Canadian business, media production, markets, and everything.

Does this mean Toronto is better then Boston? No. I think Boston's got more charming urban characteristics in the city. But I do think Toronto is more noted i the international community outside North America.

Maybe I'm wrong - but that is the feeling I have at this point.

[tocoto]

From Steely Dan on Skyscraper page. Toronto's building boom. Certainly more new highrises than Boston to add to the greater number already in Toronto. Note how many are residential while Boston has many office proposals. US cities still separate business and residential more than canadian cities.

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

name use location height floors year

recently completed:

1. Pantages Tower R/H TO 458 ft 46 2003

2. Waterclub - East Tower R TO 387 ft 37 2003

3. Apex 2 R TO 356 ft 36 2003

4. Optima R TO 338 ft 34 2003

5. Royal Pinnacle R NY 33 1999

6. 8 Park Road R TO 333 ft 32 2002

7. Matrix 1 R TO 310 ft 32 2002

8. The Pinnacle R NY 32 1999

9. The Penrose R TO 31 1999

10. Triomphe at Northtown 2 R NY 30 2003

11. Chrysler West Tower R NY 374 ft 28 2002

12. Chrysler East Tower R NY 374 ft 28 2002

13. 10 Bellair R TO 315 ft 26 2003

under construction:

1. 1 King West R TO 578 ft 51 2004

2. Residences of College Park I R TO 51 2004

3. Harbourview Estates 2 R TO 49

4. Harbourview Estates 1 R TO 40

5. Waterclub - South Tower R TO 387 ft 37 2004

6. Ultima at Broadway R NY 36 2005

7. 18 yorkville R TO 36 2005

8. Waterparkcity 1 R TO 36 2004

9. Ellipse East Tower R SC 361 ft 34 2003

10. Ellipse West Tower R SC 361 ft 34 2003

11. Minto Gardens 1 R NY 33 2004

12. Skymar 2 at Avondale R NY 33 2004

13. Aria R TO 32

14. Radio City II R TO 30 2004

15. Grand Triomphe at Northtown R NY 30

16. Waterclub - West Tower R TO 302 ft 27 2004

color code:

blue = 50 - 59 floors

green = 40

[BrandonTO416]

Boston needs to get on board with condo construction. You can purchase a condo unit in downtown Toronto that is brand new for $99k CDN. Granted, its a small studio unit; but you can get a fully featured 1 bedroom with enough space for $140k CDN. That's at least livable.

Probably the most livable city here is Chicago in terms of prices in the city.

[tocoto]

It's interesting that toronto and chicago are both sort of middle of the continent, and are inexpensive while ocean coastal cities are more expensive. Chicago is inexpensive in commercial real estate as well. More buildings in Boston would reduce prices but that would hurt existing owners and long term leaseholders so its a hard to make that happen. The cost of office space in Boston has come down a lot in the past two years. It was getting near $100/sqft asking price and is now in the $30 to $60 range depending on location. Price is now considered at the bottom and starting to come back up. It never reached the level of chicago. Since 2000, boston probably has added over 3M sqft of hi rise office space with 3 towers over 475 ft. It has also added many hi rise condos and apartments but I don't know the number. Boston is in a building boom.

[BrandonTO416]

I know Boston isn't standing still - its great what is going on there! I love Boston.

But it sounds to me, and just remember I'm an outsider who knows little about Boston really, that Boston should be building far more then it is in terms of housing. It is one of the largest urban centers in North America, afterall..

The only way housing prices are going to come down is if they overbuild and saturate central Boston with too much housing.

Make the pie bigger, prices fall dramatically, and tons of people will move in later on. But it has to coincide with business growth as well - hence why the government needs to get in there and offer tax incentives to do such.

[tocoto]

Like Scott said there have been thousands of units of housing built both hi rise and low rise, over the past few years. People still move to the area, so there is demand for new housing. That coupled with lack of large parcels of land, make residential development tough. There was a story in the paper the other day describing a state program for $65M to help get new housing built. Residential rents are not climbing very fast. Housing prices have been going up quickly, but the rate seems to be slowing. Maybe the situation will begin to come into balance.

[Cotuit]

You do get paid more in Boston. That hasn't come up yet. Yes, it's expensive, but salaries are higher. You also cut out the price of a car (if you're smart) living in Boston. You don't realize how much owning a car costs until you don't own it anymore.

[Canuck]

From Steely Dan on Skyscraper page.

[Scott]

In Boston you can make $12 an hour with full benefits humping boxes for UPS. You could make $200 a night waiting tables or driving a cab. If your not making money you aren't trying. On a larger scale there is alot of medical and tech jobs, with any degree you could do quite well.

btw-When I lived in Dorchester the first year I owned a car the insurance was about $2500 a year, it was awful.

[BrandonTO416]

Humping boxes? Scott... Maybe I have a perverted mind.. But still!

I didn't really take into account the difference in salaries, but the cost of living still needs to come down in Boston, not rise, if you ask me.

[tocoto]

The truth is you can find acceptably priced housing depending on your income in the Boston area. There are plenty of immigrants here form all over the world who start from scratch, and make it rich. So don't let the cost of housing sway you.

[Rail Claimore]

New York, Chicago, and LA are the only 3 true global cities in the US and in North America. Honorable mention would go to Toronto and San Francisco.

Every other major city in the US and Canada, whether it is Vancouver, Atlanta, Boston, or Dallas, has elements of globalism and could be considered an international "business" city, but they aren't what I would consider true international cities in any extent of the word. They each fall into a tier below the big three.

[Scott]

Toronto is more important than Washington DC?...that's crazy. Washington is the most influential seat of power in the world and has a much larger economy.

[tocoto]

How do Canadians feel about the importance of Ottawa? It's never mentioned at the top.

[BrandonTO416]

How big is the Washington economy?

[monsoon]

[sleepy]

If this were expanded to North America, I wonder where Mexico City would stand in the rankings? Certainly it wins on population as I believe it is now larger than even NYC now.

I think Mexico City is given short shrift by many international lists. It's long ago taken over from Buenos Aires the title as the media, publishing, and intellectual capital of Latin America.