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largest US cities

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I also like the urban area/urban cluster idea to determine actual area size for a metro, MSA's are iffy IMO.

I've seen several mentions of Tampa from people as one of the largest cities, I'm not sure how many here have been to it in person, but to me anyway it is understandeable how someone who is not a "nerd" could believe it to be one of the largest. Tampa/Clearwater in their cores feel and look like a far bigger place, I know as a teenager I spent some time there and was awed at the urbanity. I knew of course that their numbers did not really support this perception, but they could easily impress the "lay person" who had not experienced many of America's citites as one of the larger ones.

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Wow, and for comparison, Rhode Island is only 1,045 sq. miles.
And, some of those places are quite tiny in population.

 1 Sitka, Alaska          2,874 square miles     8,986 population

2 Juneau, Alaska 2,717 30,987

3 Anchorage, Alaska 1,697 275,043

4 Jacksonville, Florida 758 782,623

5 Anaconda, Montana 737 8,948

6 Butte, Montana 716 32,282

7 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 607 531,324

8 Houston, Texas 579 2,016,582

9 Phoenix, Arizona 475 1,461,575

10 Nashville, Tennessee 473 549,110

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Does Oklahoma City have a lot of undeveloped land within its borders like Jacksonville or is it just sprawltastic?

Oklahoma City is not quite contiguous with it's counties whereas Jacksonville is, but both clearly include lots of undeveloped land. OKC's urbanized area makes it more like a normal city, at around 250 square miles, which contains almost all the city pop. I've never been into the heart of Jacksonville, but I understand it's urbanized area is less than a third of it's total area and contains a lower % of total pop than OKC's. But OKC and JAX are better lumped together and then compared to Louisville, county consolidated, it's county much more dense to begin with, and significantly smaller, and does not include large tracts of undeveloped land (or water). For this reason I think it more appropriate to call Louisville county a 'city' than OKC and Jacksonville, in the sense of urban area or urban clusters.

And I realize there is a falacy in my argument of interchanging urban area with overall density, but I think they're close enough. :)

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Oklahoma City is not quite contiguous with it's counties whereas Jacksonville is, but both clearly include lots of undeveloped land. OKC's urbanized area makes it more like a normal city, at around 250 square miles, which contains almost all the city pop. I've never been into the heart of Jacksonville, but I understand it's urbanized area is less than a third of it's total area and contains a lower % of total pop than OKC's. But OKC and JAX are better lumped together and then compared to Louisville, county consolidated, it's county much more dense to begin with, and significantly smaller, and does not include large tracts of undeveloped land (or water). For this reason I think it more appropriate to call Louisville county a 'city' than OKC and Jacksonville, in the sense of urban area or urban clusters.

And I realize there is a falacy in my argument of interchanging urban area with overall density, but I think they're close enough. :)

Louisville is actually officially listed at 560k but in the census they say list it as "Louisville-Jefferson County." However, that 560k leaves out 140k people which is so substantial it is such a misnomer to say it is "merged." Those 140k live in incorpoarted suburbs that the city was not allowed to count in its "official" population according to the census, even though the city provided them with survices and they pay Louisville Metro taxes!!! The city is extremely angry about this because you cannot list it as "Louisville-Jefferson" if it leaves out 140k people and 100 or so square miles.

Almost every inch of developable land where those 560k people live is accounted for. Louisville's county, Jefferson, has 700k people in 385 square miles, and I believe around 5% of that area is water. As I have said on here for a long time, Louisville is a substantially larger and denser cities than places like Jax or OKC. Sure the metros are similar now, but Louisville just looks and feels like a much bigger city (bc it always has been historically) if you are just driving around. Comparing the density in Louisville to that in OKC is like trying to compare the density of Louisville to Chicago. I just cannot emphasize that point enough.

I am fully convinced that Louisville will probably never be known like it should until the city wakes up and gets pro sports here, something that should of happened with the Grizz and Hornets...but thats a different story.

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Yeah, I was reading about Louisville again, trying to figure out how exactly they have arranged the merger that still somehow includes (or not) independent municipalities (sort of), finally I gave up. :) And you do see differing numbers, but no doubt it is more of an urban place, especially historically, to return to the original point I made too laboriously. I agree that it would be nice to see Louisville with a sports team of some kind (football anyone?), though it might just make you known for that and little else. There was another thread on people not from Louisville and their impressions of it, does not appear to have weighed in yet with a good mix of posts, but will be interesting when it is.

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How about one of the largest towns in America?

Central Jersey is home of several of them:

Edison, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 100,142

Woodbridge, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 97,203

Dover, Ocean County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 94,320

Hamilton, Mercer County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 87,109

Middletown, Monmouth County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 66,327

Then down the list are one of the fastest growing townships in the state that may make the most popular list above someday:

Franklin, Somerset County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 50,903

Howell, Monmouth County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 48,903

South Brunswick, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 37,734

Hillsborough, Somerset County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 36,634

Monroe, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 27,999

Montgomery, Somerset County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 22,287 (In 1990, it was 9,612)

Wikipedia was all used for population sources

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^ NE Jersey is an interesting place, if Trenton or Newark, or really any other "town" were allowed to be of a normal size instead of under 30 square miles, you'd have a list of large cities. Anyway, it all amounts to a numbers game, but there are things they could do more successfully with the larger tax bases and area to allow for continuity of services and planning. How common is county/regional planning entities up there to solve some of the issues of tightly packed dense but individual communities?

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Here's what my girlfriend thinks. I let her use the map, which she asked, "where all da people at?":

New York

Dallas

Los Angeles

Chicago

Houston

"San Francisco can't be...it's too expensive. Same thing with Boston."

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How about one of the largest towns in America?

Central Jersey is home of several of them:

Edison, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 100,142

Woodbridge, Middlesex County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 97,203

Dover, Ocean County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 94,320

Hamilton, Mercer County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 87,109

Middletown, Monmouth County {sodEmoji.{sodEmoji.|}} 66,327

The largest towns (we call them townships) in Michigan are:

1. Clinton TWP - 96,828

2. Canton TWP - 86,076 (added 10,000 people between 2000 and 2005)

3. Waterford TWP - 71,670

4. Shelby TWP - 69,909

5. Macomb TWP - 68,794 (added 18,000 people between 2000 and 2005)

6. West Bloomfield TWP - 64,996

7. Ypsilanti TWP - 52,124

8. Redford TWP - 49,554

9. Georgetown TWP - 44,346

10. Chesterfield TWP - 43,838

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How about one of the largest towns in America?
The largest township in the United States is Hempstead Town, New York, with a population of 751,276, bigger than every city except the top thirteen.

The top 50 largest townships in the United States:

Hempstead Town          New York       751,276 largest in New York

Brookhaven Town New York 472,122

Islip Town New York 329,580

Oyster Bay Town New York 296,917

North Hempstead Town New York 222,975

Babylon Town New York 216,230

Huntington Town New York 198,621

Rockford Township Illinois 182,259 largest in Illinois

Thornton Township Illinois 174,477

Center Township Indiana 163,541 largest in Indiana

North Township Indiana 160,575

Wheeling Township Illinois 152,978

Proviso Township Illinois 149,494

Downers Grove Township Illinois 149,462

Worth Township Illinois 148,506

Bridgeport Town Connecticut 139,008 largest in Connecticut

Aurora Township Illinois 137,233

Maine Township Illinois 133,063

Wayne Township Indiana 132,470

Schaumburg Township Illinois 132,086

Washington Township Indiana 131,834

York Township Illinois 126,540

New Haven Town Connecticut 124,791

Hartford Town Connecticut 124,397

Lisle Township Illinois 123,596

Calumet Township Indiana 123,279

Stamford Town Connecticut 120,045

SmithTown Town New York 119,088

Milton Township Illinois 118,041

Amherst Town New York 117,272

Capital Township Illinois 114,642

Palatine Township Illinois 113,866

Lawrence Township Indiana 113,849

Peoria City Township Illinois 112,685

Ramapo Town New York 112,522

Bloomingdale Township Illinois 112,401

Bremen Township Illinois 111,053

Lyons Township Illinois 109,558

Waterbury Town Connecticut 107,902

Wayne Township Indiana 107,786

Niles Township Illinois 103,470

Joliet Township Illinois 101,002

Orland Township Illinois 100,664

Woodbridge Township New Jersey 100,577 largest in New Jersey

Edison Township New Jersey 100,499

Algonquin Township Illinois 98,481

Elgin Township Illinois 97,823

Clinton Township Michigan 96,828 largest in Michigan

Waukegan Township Illinois 96,212

Dover Township New Jersey 94,660

The largest townships, by state:

Bridgeport Town         Connecticut    139,008 

Rockford Township Kansas 22,218

Rockford Township Illinois 182,259

Center Township Indiana 163,541

Brunswick Town Maine 21,820

Framingham Town Massachusetts 65,060

Clinton Township Michigan 96,828

White Bear Township Minnesota 11,506

Liberty Township Missouri 14,435

Columbus Township Nebraska 2,883

Woodbridge Township New Jersey 100,577

Derry Town New Hampshire 34,290

Hempstead Town New York 751,276

Mekinock Township North Dakota 4,270

Green Township Ohio 57,596

Upper Darby Township Pennsylvania 79,620

Coventry Town Rhode Island 35,080

Split Rock Township South Dakota 3,091

Essex Town Vermont 19,146

Caledonia Town Wisconsin 24,426

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Hampsted is 120 sq. mi. which is nearly 3.5 times the size of a typical township. Most cities in the U.S. aren't even that large. Brookhaven is 260 sq. mi.

BTW, if Michigan retained its townships in the same way that Illinois has the largest township would be Redford TWP with a population of 217,427 in an area of 35.3 sq. mi.

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In Minnesota, once an area is annexed into a city, it is no longer a part of its respected township, thus the largest township in Minnesota has around 11,000 residents. Keep in mind that entire cities like Plymouth and Maple Grove are simply city versions of previous townships and have populations around 65-70,000.

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In Minnesota, once an area is annexed into a city, it is no longer a part of its respected township, thus the largest township in Minnesota has around 11,000 residents. Keep in mind that entire cities like Plymouth and Maple Grove are simply city versions of previous townships and have populations around 65-70,000.
Michigan has many examples of that as well. Examples:

* The City of Warren (population 135,311) was Warren Township until 1957. It is 34.3 square miles in area (the much smaller City of Center Line occupies the rest of the former Warren Township).

* The City of Sterling Heights (population 128,034) was Sterling Township until 1968. It is almost a perfect square, 36.7 square miles in area.

* The City of Livonia (population 97,977) was Livonia Township until 1950. It is almost a perfect square, 35.8 square miles in area.

* The City of Troy (population 81,168) was Troy Township until 1955. It is 33.6 square miles area (other cities occupy small areas of the former Troy Township).

* The City of Farmington Hills (population 80,223) was Farmington Township until 1972. It is 33.3 square miles in area (the much smaller City of Farmington occupies the rest of the former Avon Township).

* The City of Rochester Hills (population 69,995) was Avon Township until 1984. It is 32.9 square miles in area (the much smaller City of Rochester occupies the rest of the former Avon Township).

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i think if you're the tpye of person (as so many on a board like this are) who's into demographics and stats, it's pretty unthinkable that the average person could be so off on questions like this.

what freaked me was when the head of the school of architecture at a well-respected school i attended was talking with us in seminar and asked (rhetorically, he thought) 'isn't atlanta's metro the largest in the country now?' - even the 'tards in that class were shaking their heads. this was spring of 2005. in his defense, atlanta does seem bigger than it is.

Metro Atlanta looks and feels much bigger than DC and Boston, which apparently have larger populations. It looks about the same size as Detroit or Philadelphia. Not as dense, but roughly the same size, spacially speaking.

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New Jersey and Nassau County, Long Island lead the nation when it comes to population density. NJ has 569 muncipalties statewide of which many of the populous townships listed are not very big (by sq miles) in comparison to the townships listed in the Midwest. I really admire the grid system used in the Midwest though :thumbsup:

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New Jersey and Nassau County, Long Island lead the nation when it comes to population density. NJ has 569 muncipalties statewide of which many of the populous townships listed are not very big (by sq miles) in comparison to the townships listed in the Midwest. I really admire the grid system used in the Midwest though :thumbsup:
That's certainly not true when comparing to Michigan's townships. Most of Michigan's townships are approximately 6 miles by 6 miles. In area, they are around the same size as New Jersey's townships. Some townships in New York are HUGE (see Brookhaven Town).

Michigan top 5:

Clinton Township 96,828 28.2 square miles

Canton Township 86,076 36.0

Waterford Charter Township 71,670 35.3

Shelby Charter Township 69,909 35.2

Macomb Township 68,794 36.3

New Jersey top 5:

Woodbridge Township 100,577 24.2

Edison Township 100,499 30.7

Dover Township 94,660 52.9

Hamilton Township 89,993 40.4

Brick Township 78,155 32.3

New York top 5:

Hempstead Town 751,276 191.3

Brookhaven Town 472,122 531.5

Islip Town 329,580 163.1

Oyster Bay Town 296,917 169.5

North Hempstead Town 222,975 191.3

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Those high-pop twps in NJ are large in area and very sprawly/suburban in character. Most of NJ's municipalities are tiny. The township I live in is 6 sq miles (3x2), but boroughs, cities, and others are usually smaller, many being under 1 sq mile.

NJ statewide, avg municipality size: 13.0 sq mi (569 munic in 7,417 sq mi)

Bergen County, avg municipality size: 3.5 sq mi (70 munic in 247 sq mi)

New York is a strange beast because within towns they have incorporated villages. Several villages, in sum, make up a larger town, that is a subdivision of a county. There's an extra layer of local government that doesn't exist in most other states.

Most states (as I understand them):

STATE > COUNTY > TOWN/CITY/VILLAGE/BOROUGH/etc.

New York (outside NYC):

STATE > COUNTY > TOWN > VILLAGE

New York (in NYC):

STATE > CITY > COUNTY

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Actually, for New York City it is State > County > Borough (where New York City is the combination of the five boroughs in the five counties)

Also, Michigan has a similar pattern:

State > County > City/Township > Village

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I never understood the whole town/village thing. In most of New England there are a number of villages with specific names, but they don't have their own government layer, they're mainly just names for parts of towns or nieghborhoods. Town/city government and state government are really the only entities, and counties are practically useless except for court districts and the national weather service... When I lived in New York I always thought it was odd to have a village goverment in a larger town, like where do you live, the Village of Colonie or the town of Latham?

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I am fully convinced that Louisville will probably never be known like it should until the city wakes up and gets pro sports here, something that should of happened with the Grizz and Hornets...but thats a different story.

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I'm not sure where you got your statistics from but the Louisville CSA had an estimated 2005 population of 1,342,918 while the Oklahoma City CSA had an estimated 2005 population of 1,225,084. Regardless, either city is equally deserving of a professional team. (Though with Louisville being so close to other franchises, they may have a tougher time getting a team.) Oklahoma City's relative remoteness could be a factor in giving the city and state a team.

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Just to let this topic veer off topic for yet another post: since we are talking about CSA/MSA populations and getting sports franchises, what was Charlotte's MSA and CSA back in '93 when they got an NFL team, and '88 for NBA? I would imagine around the 1.2/1.3 million numbers argued above for OK City and Louisville. But hudkina has a point - Louisville is in the thick of an area probably overripe in other loyalties, and I've even read another Kentuckian mention here in this forum that the rest of Kentucky has a negative opinion of Louisville so perhaps they could not expect support there either. Also, OK CIty is fairly remote and therefore a regional center, but there are other larger metros that fit this bill - Las Vegas being the first one that comes to mind, that have no teams and would be looked at first.

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I'm not sure on how exactly Charlotte pulled off the Hornets, but I'm assuming the areas obsession with college basketball had a lot to do with it. So, I think that discredits the logic of Louisville not getting a team because of loyalities to college teams and the such. And, contary to popular belief, the Hornets sold out numerous seasons while in Charlotte.

As far as the Panthers go, they got the team because Richardson had the drive, NC and SC combined power (both corporate and political), the stadium was financed completely with private money, and the permanent seat licenses all sold out in one day.

I think the Carolinas and OKC have more drive than Louisville...if Louisville really wanted a franchise then they would try harder. The Sonics were up for sell, and OKC businessman bought them for plan B. So basicially, feel bad for Louisville all you want, but top tier cities put money where their mouth is.

Edit: I mixed the estimates of Louisville and OKC up...but honestly, there isn't that much difference to begin with.

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Yeah, I'm stilled miffed about the Hornets leaving (and the name itself), that was my impression too, that they sold tickets well. And also had developed a strong fanbase given the amount of time ther were here. Anyway, arguing the NBA made sense in CLT back in '88 because of the strong college atmosphere here is usually a faulty argument as college fans are often not professional fans, and you also lack the "alma mater" and "my child goes there" fans and boosters you have with college sports. In the "tobacco road" area of NC, there have apparently been several failed professinal teams because of this college atmosphere, up until the Hurricanes anyway, which made some sense for different reasons.

I agree OKC seems to have more of the drive you mention, but that is incredibly subjective, I couldn't personally back that up with any substantial facts, other than to say I have not heard any news of anyone there trying to get a sports team. Is anyone? If not then I guess this is all moot..

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