Should NC build I-30

[Sabaidee]

Well, I-85 happens to go through Charlotte, too. All NC-funded passenger trains go through Charlotte, as well. I'm getting sick of this "blame all our problems on Raleigh" attitude that many folks in other parts of the state have taken on lately. Maybe if people in Charlotte took ownership of some of their own problems, then things could get solved more easily? I don't think this is news to you, but Raleigh actually has WORSE traffic problems than Charlotte, and the DOT is just as insensitive to local issues here as it is down there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is blaming on the City of Raleigh itself with Charlotte's road problems, we placing the blame on the state legislators in Raleigh, the balance of power in our state are mostly from the people in the Eastern part of the state. Those legislators have put in a lot of pork into the state transportation projects. Just look at the area surrounding Raleigh, Knightdale Bypass and such. I understand and experienced I-40 in Raleigh many times by RTP. While we shouldn't brag who has worser traffic, I-77 South is the most congested Freeway in the state, it's approaching 200,000 cars a day and Independence Blvd approached 100,000 cars a day a decarde ago and that isn't even a freeway.

[dubone]

i just wish that revenues could stay in the division it was raised in. That allows areas that have a lot of cars using the roads (and thus filling up thei cars at the gas station) to have the money to afford maintenance and roads for those cars.

I still am convinced that the legislators won't change the funding formula, though.

[orulz]

I don't buy your argument.

There's the the same problem nationally with "donor states" and "recipient states". The problem is, there are highways in the "recipient states" that have a huge amount of importance nationally, perhaps more than even to the state itself. Take I-90, for example. It links the pacific northwest with the rest of the nation - undeniably important. In montana, it runs 550 miles through extremely rough, sparesly populated territory. If you tell Montana "You have to build this interstate, but we won't help you at all - you have to raise the money yourself from the 800,000 people that live in your state" not only is it phenomenally unfair, the interstate won't get built because they simply can't squeeze the billions of dollars from so few people. So, they determine that other states will benefit from the construction of this highway (for example, Chicago gets access to ports in Seattle) and they take a "collection" from the more populous states to make it happen.

The argument for giving more highway funds down east is that us inlanders will benefit from it in some way - quicker access to beaches, ports, safer and faster trucking from agricultural areas, etc.

You have to be willing to spread some of your wealth around for the system to work, rather than just bogarting it all. I'll allow that the system probably needs to be changed, but keeping 100% of the money raised in [Charlotte/Triangle/Triad] right there is not the solution.

[dubone]

yeah, the more i think about it, just a pure division breakdown would be tough on divisions like div 1, which needs to build and maintain major bridges and upgrade us17 and us64 for the raleigh to Norfolk interstate corridor. The numbers might still work out, though. It seems like they might get a decent amount of gas tax revenue from tourists, and they also don't have the same amount of needs for surface roads, as they don't have major traffic or urbanization.

Anyway, i don't have any hope that the legislature will revise the funding formula. My own idea of the solution is a supplemental local option gas tax that cities or counties or divisions could levy and spend without sharing. I elaborated in the following post:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ic=6457&st=130#

[Sabaidee]

The state could also redefine the divisons to fit more geographically with actual metro designations, I find it weird that we are in the same divison as Pinehurst.

[Jerseyman4]

yeah, the more i think about it, just a pure division breakdown would be tough on divisions like div 1, which needs to build and maintain major bridges and upgrade us17 and us64 for the raleigh to Norfolk interstate corridor.  The numbers might still work out, though.  It seems like they might get a decent amount of gas tax revenue from tourists, and they also don't have the same amount of needs for surface roads, as they don't have major traffic or urbanization. 

Anyway, i don't have any hope that the legislature will revise the funding formula.  My own idea of the solution is a supplemental local option gas tax that cities or counties or divisions could levy and spend without sharing.  I elaborated in the following post:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ic=6457&st=130#

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct me if im wrong, didnt NCDOT have 16 divisions before?

[dubone]

The state could also redefine the divisons to fit more geographically with actual metro designations, I find it weird that we are in the same divison as Pinehurst.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

pinehurst is in division 8, charlotte is in division 10.

[Sabaidee]

pinehurst is in division 8, charlotte is in division 10.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My fault, I used that example cuz McCory used that example when he did that show the Mayor has on the Government channel, or did he used another example, I forgot.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

There is already a proposal to build a Highway 74 bypass around Wadesboro.

[dubone]

There is already a proposal to build a Highway 74 bypass around Wadesboro.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly... the projects are already on the TIP to upgrade US 74 to a freeway for almost the entire way between Bryson City/Maggie Valley to Wilmington... and a sub-freeway through Murphy to Chattanooga.

- Freeway bypass for Bryson City

- Freeway bypass for Shelby

- Freeway bypass for Gastonia (Garden Parkway)

- Freeway bypass for Monroe

- Freeway bypass for Wadesboro (coordinated already with Monroe bypass)

- Upgrade of existing us 74 to freeway between current Rockingham bypass to Wilmington

Calling it Interstate 30 would simply be label and a tool for coordinating the projects. It could also allow for those projects to gain higher priority as they would have broader significance as part of a major corridor than, say, some random bypass of a hog swamp town down east.

[Jerseyman4]

... and a sub-freeway through Murphy to Chattanooga. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whats a sub freeway? A highway that is limited access but allows at-grade intersections?

[dubone]

some variation on a freeway, but not quite interstate standards.

They might have some at grade intersections or a few access points that aren't full interchanges. It also might be a full limited access freeway, but may not meet interstate standards with guardrails and such. Without ever intending a stretch of US highway to be an interstate, they might make a number of compromises on the engineering... or, as is the case for parts of the i73/74 corridor, they may be upgrading and widening a lot of it, but plan to go the rest of the way to interstate standards in the future. independence in charlotte is a freeway has some driveways along it, for example. also us 52 between lexington and winston is a freeway, and you'd swear it was an interstate, but they must do a number of upgrades to it to get it to pass interstate standards.

The idea is US74 is already slated for upgrade to a freeway, they just might not otherwise bring it all the way up to interstate standard. By coordinating it with a corridor like "Interstate 30" they might still make compromises that require future work, but they'll at least build it in a way that makes it cheaper to do the upgrades in the future, rather than assume it will never be upgraded to a full interstate.

[Jerseyman4]

some variation on a freeway, but not quite interstate standards.

They might have some at grade intersections or a few access points that aren't full interchanges.  It also might be a full limited access freeway, but may not meet interstate standards with guardrails and such.

Without ever intending a stretch of US highway to be an interstate, they might make a number of compromises on the engineering... or, as is the case for parts of the i73/74 corridor, they may be upgrading and widening a lot of it, but plan to go the rest of the way to interstate standards in the future. independence in charlotte is a freeway has some driveways along it, for example. also us 52 between lexington and winston is a freeway, and you'd swear it was an interstate, but they must do a number of upgrades to it to get it to pass interstate standards.

The idea is US74 is already slated for upgrade to a freeway, they just might not otherwise bring it all the way up to interstate standard. By coordinating it with a corridor like "Interstate 30" they might still make compromises that require future work, but they'll at least build it in a way that makes it cheaper to do the upgrades in the future, rather than assume it will never be upgraded to a full interstate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bear with me, i was trying to break off in the quotes responding back!

(paragraph 1) Basically, its an expressway then. The difference between an expressway and a freeway is that expressways allow at-grades but function just like a freeway otherwise, a freeway does not allow at-grades period. US 421 in Northwestern Randolph County is a great example of an expressway.

(paragraph 2)The new Fayetteville beltway has inadequate shoulders yet have " FUTURE I-295" signs. Your right, thats a suprise about US 52. What kind of upgrades do they have to do?

(paragraph 3)Thats the NCDOT for ya!

[Sabaidee]

US 52 was considered to be renamed as I-185 between Lexington and Winston-Salem, but it was rejected. Also as I-285, but I don't see the purpose as I-285, as the even first number of a 3 numbered interstate is for loops and bypass.

http://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i185.html

http://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i285.html

The only upgrade US 52 needed is in Winston-Salem, it has a lot of curves and substandard shoulders.

Also with US 321 North of Gastonia, it's a freeway and it will connect to the Garden Parkway, the only thing about it, it doesn't have a freeway style interchange with I-85, but that will change with the construction of the Garden Parkway. I think US 321 should change its designation as I-185 or I-385 as a spur of I-85.

[dubone]

(paragraph 1) Basically, its an expressway then. The difference between an expressway and a freeway is that expressways allow at-grades but function just like a freeway otherwise, a freeway does not allow at-grades period. US 421 in Northwestern Randolph County is a great example of an expressway.

(paragraph 2)The new Fayetteville beltway has inadequate shoulders yet have " FUTURE I-295" signs. Your right, thats a suprise about US 52. What kind of upgrades do they have to do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, "expressway" is the more precise term rather than sub-freeway. Now that i look back at the Vision plan ( http://www.ncdot.org/planning/tpb/SHC/PDF/SHC_Vision_Map.pdf ) it is clear that that IS the term i mean, you can see that US74 is planned to be an expressway through much of the mountains.

However, there are definitely many stretches of us74 towards the beach that have been recently widened/upgraded to a 4-lanes divided, but still have some of the at-grade crossing and such, thus they have been upgraded to an expressway, and still have plans for an eventual upgrade to a freeway. But given how us52 south of w-s still needs upgrades to be an interstate, it is clear that there are even degrees of freeway...

[catdaddy]

I would rather see a train line that goes through these three places. it would cut down pollution and save time.

[dubone]

I would rather see a train line that goes through these three places. it would cut down pollution and save time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what three places?

[cityboi]

I think I-40 serves as the link between Asheville and Wilmington. However there should be an interstate freeway that connects Wilmington with Charlotte. Fayetteville should be included on the route as well. There is really no easy way or direct highway access between Wilmington and Charlotte.

[dubone]

I think I-40 serves as the link between Asheville and Wilmington. However there should be an interstate freeway that connects Wilmington with Charlotte. Fayetteville should be included on the route as well. There is really no easy way or direct highway access between Wilmington and Charlotte.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I took us74 to wilmington a few weeks ago when i was on vacation, and the others we were with took 40 and 85.

Even though the interstate route through Raleigh and Greensboro is 100 miles longer, it took roughly the same amount of time to get to charlotte. Much of that was the traffic on us74 in union county, but low speed limits, traffic signals, 2 lane roads, etc., for the whole route contribute heavily.

Charleston is almost exactly the same distance away from Charlotte as Wilmington, but the direct interstate connection makes it roughly an hour less time to get there. I'm sure that plays a major role in decisions for whether to send freight to the Port of Charleston vs Wilmington, and whether to go to Charleston beaches vs Wilmington beaches.

As far as Asheville to Wilmington being i40, while that is true now, it is 60 miles out of the way compared the much more direct us74/i30 through charlotte. If 74 were upgraded to i30, that would be roughly an hour saved by taking i30 vs i40.

[mediamongrel]

I would rather see a train line that goes through these three places. it would cut down pollution and save time.

nobody wants to ride trains...get over it

[orulz]

I do. Guess I'm nobody, then. Damn, sucks for me.

[dubone]

"I would rather see a train line that goes through these three places. it would cut down pollution and save time. "

nobody wants to ride trains...get over it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...then why did say you'd vote for trains?

plenty of people ride trains, but the conditions have to be right. (ie. competitive with other travel option, and little/no need for personal automobile at the destination). I think rail on the "i30 corridor" would not be very effective, as asheville and wilmington are not high-population/dense destinations, as most people who go are dispersing to destinations in the mountains or coast. the SE High Speed Rail, however, to the Triangle, Triad, and Charlotte got the highest federal rating for ability to compete with personal auto travel and airline travel (ie. gain meaningful market share, even if no where near a majority).

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Seems there is a proposal in the works to build part of I-30 in North Carolina that would connect Asheville <-> Charlotte <-> Wilmington.    I would say it is about time that something is built in the state that doesn't go through Raleigh but I would rather see the funding going towards a train line instead of building another interstate. 

What do you think.

More info here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd rather see a high-speed (bullet train) built between Asheville and Wilmington via RDU Airport...

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

...then why did say you'd vote for trains?

plenty of people ride trains, but the conditions have to be right. (ie. competitive with other travel option, and little/no need for personal automobile at the destination).  I think rail on the "i30 corridor" would not be very effective, as asheville and wilmington are not high-population/dense destinations, as most people who go are dispersing to destinations in the mountains or coast.  the SE High Speed Rail, however, to the Triangle, Triad, and Charlotte got the highest federal rating for ability to compete with personal auto travel and airline travel (ie. gain meaningful market share, even if no where near a majority).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People can rent cars at their destinations.

[dubone]

bringing this thread back to the us74/i30 corridor, there was an article in the observer last fall about the upgrades of us74:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/10184263.htm