Should NC build I-30

[Creasy336]

I actually wrote our Congressional reps with the suggestion of Garden Pkwy+an interstate grade upgrade of 321 between Dallas and Hickory as I-640 (that number will not be used on the Raleigh loop), and didn't get (wasn't expecting) any response. I did copy the letter to the NCDOT and got a pretty curt reply from some engineer stating that "The Garden Pkwy will not be designed to interstate standards."

They are probably designing it as a four-lane as well, guaranteeing another future widening project.

Writing a few Chambers Of Commerce might be a better method of planting the idea.

wow, it's a toll road. which means it pays for itself (for the most part) People are calling for US 74 from Kings Mountain to I-26 to be an interstate. The Garden Pkwy is an extension of this road. Why would the state build a toll road as anything other than a interstate and 4 lanes at that. I could see the logic behind a bridge being tolled that wasn't up to interstate standards but thats it. They really can't widen I-85 through Gastonia...I think the alternative to I-85 should be built right the first time.

[davidals]

wow, it's a toll road. which means it pays for itself (for the most part) People are calling for US 74 from Kings Mountain to I-26 to be an interstate. The Garden Pkwy is an extension of this road. Why would the state build a toll road as anything other than a interstate and 4 lanes at that. I could see the logic behind a bridge being tolled that wasn't up to interstate standards but thats it. They really can't widen I-85 through Gastonia...I think the alternative to I-85 should be built right the first time.

Well...that last statement was speculation, and maybe over-the-top. My assumptions about the planning of Garden Pkwy are based on some previous examples of lousy planning that any driver could spot:

1. I-485 in South and Southeast Mecklenburg

2. I-40 between Hillsborough and Research Triangle Park

3. I-40 between US 311 in southeast Winston and the Green 40 interchange at the Guilford/Forsyth Co line

All were built as 4-lanes, with narrow medians, and all were obsolete when they opened (or became so very shortly afterwards). #2 on the list was in need of a major widenening within a few years, went several years without any attention, and when the widening (from US 15-501 to RTP) was done, the construction was botched - incorrect joints in the new concrete, causing the road to fall apart. Thus the work will have to be done again. This very expensive and very time-consuming fiasco was completely avoidable.

485 south was just as much of a joke.

[dubone]

Most freeways in NC aren't built to interstate standards - shorter ramps, narrower shoulders or a thinner layer of pavement for example. The DOT is designing these various freeway upgrades to US 74 at sub-interstate freeway standard, while lobbying for an interstate designation, which would require them to overhaul the highway again immediately after completion? The logic of our DOT is unbelievable...

Freeway upgrades to 74 have been talked about for 40 years; as traffic on 40 through the entire state had done nothing but escalate, I find it hard to fathom 74 not being rebuilt as an interstate decades ago. At the very least it would offer a relief route for 40, which can only be widened so much. Wilimington would get a 2nd interstate, Charlotte gets direct access to a port, and 2 tourist meccas (Asheville and Wilmington) get a direct, if long-distance (still shorter than Asheville-to-Wilmington via I-40) connection.

The current routing of I-73 and I-74, both of which will be completed when hell freezes over, looks as if it was routed by toddlers. Neither go very directly anywhere, and the weird sharp zig-zag on I-74 around the Green Swamp may well make portions of that project unbuildable; the proposed tangle of freeways in the Triad is geographical illiteracy raised to an art form. This inability to plan or route things in some sort of geographically sensible fashion would make me a bit more reluctant to support another new interstate project. Meanwhile, the only major city in NC that Charlotte directly links to (via interstate) is Greensboro; a Wilmington or Fayetteville (or Asheville) connector seemingly would've been a no-brainer decades ago, but there don't seem to be any actual brains involved...

Could be worse - some nitwit is proposing an I-3 (??? Shouldn't this be a West Coast number???) to link Savannah GA and Knoxville TN, via Augusta, Anderson SC and Graham Co NC. Seems like a joke...

Amen, amen, and amen.

Perhaps the most telling reason for why I-30 will not be built is that it is NCDOT who would be responsible for doing it.

It seems that so many of NC's freeways are routed and conceived based on micro-decisions very local concepts. Even Creasy's suggestion of actually thinking of the Garden Parkway as a connection west toward Shelby couldn't happen (besides the standards question), because they are making the route curve north. It is basically just a southern beltway for Gastonia.

All sorts of decisions, which could have a dramatically positive impact on the state if they worked toward a much grander vision, and then piecemeal into it. It's like they take a very local map, make decisions on that, and then pop them together to get these crazy routes that don't seem to make sense on a macro level.

Another grander vision no-brainer, which seems to have escaped NCDOT, is that (with just coordinating them to be built as a through-road) we could completely have a bypass for I95 that brings NorthEast to Florida visitors through the Triangle. From Petersburg, Va, to Florence, SC, we have projects on the long term books to build the following projects: Durham East End Connector, Triangle Parkway, western 540, widening of US1, and I73. Together, those projects would make up a very competitive bypass to 95 for going through NC. NC doesn't really want to spend the billions it would take to upgrade 95 to meet capacity, so why not use the money to build a bypass that actually has benefits for people living in the state. Just like the us74 upgrades, those projects are already on the books. But coordinating towards a grander vision simply would allow the micro-project designers to plan the routes to make it convenient to go straight through. But instead, we'll get some curved mess, that primarily serves commuters within the metro, and would be very inconvenient or impossible to meld together as a through road.

[ChiefJoJo]

Dubone, I see what you are saying, but there is already a freeway "spur" into Raleigh, called US 64 and I40. Actually there was a resultion from CAMPO (Raleigh MPO) to designate that section as _95, the idea being the new interstate sheid would bring in more drivers from I-95, sort of like I-285 (US 52 from Lexington to Winston).

BTW, on the Garden Parkway, it won't pay for itself. Actually a good tool project pays for 2/3 of the cost, but it could be as small as 50%, which for a $1Billion road, is a huge chuck of change. Yes, that's Billion, with a "B."

No, NC should not build I-30. Can we please stop building more interstates? It wouldn't even happen for 20+ years, and will gas likely being in the $5-6/gal range, we'll all be wishing we planned for more intercity rail.

[Jerseyman4]

A US 1 relocation will be very difficult/impossible to build in Southern Pines. A lot housing is built to the east and many golf communities are to the west. All of US 1 in no doubt will be all freeway at some point if NCDOT continues to plan for that but in and around Southern Pines may never happen.

Id like to see SCDOT upgrade US 1 to Columbia from the state line but the traffic counts are very low between Cheraw and Camden.

NC doesn't really want to spend the billions it would take to upgrade 95 to meet capacity

Im pleased when i hear that. The road should be a toll facility because you do not see many people from the state using the road thus alll the majority of out of state traffic is on I-95. You have stretches of US 301 that are four lanes that locals/regional traffic are using rather than I-95

[Creasy336]

Amen, amen, and amen.

Perhaps the most telling reason for why I-30 will not be built is that it is NCDOT who would be responsible for doing it.

It seems that so many of NC's freeways are routed and conceived based on micro-decisions very local concepts. Even Creasy's suggestion of actually thinking of the Garden Parkway as a connection west toward Shelby couldn't happen (besides the standards question), because they are making the route curve north. It is basically just a southern beltway for Gastonia.

All sorts of decisions, which could have a dramatically positive impact on the state if they worked toward a much grander vision, and then piecemeal into it. It's like they take a very local map, make decisions on that, and then pop them together to get these crazy routes that don't seem to make sense on a macro level.

Another grander vision no-brainer, which seems to have escaped NCDOT, is that (with just coordinating them to be built as a through-road) we could completely have a bypass for I95 that brings NorthEast to Florida visitors through the Triangle. From Petersburg, Va, to Florence, SC, we have projects on the long term books to build the following projects: Durham East End Connector, Triangle Parkway, western 540, widening of US1, and I73. Together, those projects would make up a very competitive bypass to 95 for going through NC. NC doesn't really want to spend the billions it would take to upgrade 95 to meet capacity, so why not use the money to build a bypass that actually has benefits for people living in the state. Just like the us74 upgrades, those projects are already on the books. But coordinating towards a grander vision simply would allow the micro-project designers to plan the routes to make it convenient to go straight through. But instead, we'll get some curved mess, that primarily serves commuters within the metro, and would be very inconvenient or impossible to meld together as a through road.

If I-95 was routed through the Triangle that would be major, but also the traffic jams would be horrible. Ofcourse the I-85/I-95 Mulitiplex would need to be atleast 6 lanes. and I-95 itself atleast 8 between Durham and Apex. On the other hand the Triangles Visability would be extremly high being that I-95 connects the Northeast Megalopolis to Florida. (we could label the old I-95 The NC Turnpike or something of that nature) There is no doubt to me that large cities along I-95 benefit. Back to the Garden Pkwy and I-30. I thought that The Garden Pkwy's western terminus would be at the US-74/I-85 Split in Kings Mountain. I don't know much about the Sandhills area last time I drove through there US 1 was only 2 lanes.

[Jerseyman4]

I don't know much about the Sandhills area last time I drove through there US 1 was only 2 lanes.

Four lanes or greater from the Richmond/Moore border to I-85. Sometime after 2010, the four laning should start through Richmond County and end at the SC border.

[Durhamite]

I've always wondered why I-95 did not route through the Raleigh/Durham area. Ideally, the should have been only one intersate from Petersburg to Raleigh Durham (I-95 present day I-85). This interstate should have routed through Henderson/Louisburg (Hwy1) to the westside of Raleigh (between Raleigh and Durham) to Fayetteville and all points southward.

At certain junctures, there shoud have been feeder regional interstate-like roads just North of Raleigh that routed traffic to Durham/Greensboro and Rocky Mount/Wilson/Goldsboro areas. Whoever designed this must have been on some serious stuff back in the day.

If you think about it, I-85 and I-95 practically run parallel to damn near the same place (until you get to Raleigh/Durham). It would've been cheaper to use the one Interstate concept and much easier to manage the highway system.

How in the world did the powers that be at the time convince the Interstate Commission and NCDOT to develop two highways and neither of them touch the Capital City.....(power pig farmers and tobacco legislatures I guess?)

I wish they could scrap the whole thing and start over........

[dubone]

I95 would stay right where it is. This would simply be a bypass to relieve some of the pressure. Like Jerseyman said, and I alluded to above, US1 will be 4-laned. All of those projects are on the books. Granted it isn't to full interstate standard, but much of that route already is or will be (i85, i540, i73) or close (nc147, us70 connector, us1 north of Sanford). It would just be a matter of upgrading the section planned from Sanford to Hamlet. I think that would be far less expensive than adding 4 lanes to I 95 VA to SC, because you wouldn't have to deal with much existing traffic. Also, the cost of adding 4 lanes to 95 could never be justified as it really doesn't serve instate people as much, but an upgraded US1 would have a major benefit.

In New England, between New York and Boston, you have a choice to take either 95 through Providence, or 84 and 90 through Hartford. They are roughly the same length, so basically it reduces the pressure on 95 there because so many choose the other route.

So by coordinating existing upgrade and freeway projects and making long term plans to connect them all as a through-route, you build up to a very useful corridor, that would reduce congestion pressure on I95, saving the need for a multi-billion dollar expansion that would not do much for the state.

Also, as it is parallel to 95, it might meet requirements to be funded through the NC Turnpike Authority.

[dubone]

Here is what I think the freeway (not necessarily "Interstate" standards for all of them) network should be circa 2040. I believe we should grow piecemeal toward this over the years. Almost all of these projects are the books now as part of the "Intrastate" system, but some like I30 and the US1 project I was speaking of earlier should be pursued as interstate in order to be good alternatives to current interstates that are over capacity.

The I30 I show in Western NC is Appalachian Regional Corridor K, and is a high priority for the federal government. Much of it is already a freeway, and the rest will be expanded to an expressway at some point. By making it I30 to Cleveland, I30 could eventually go to Huntsville and connect to other northern AL and MS projects to connect to I30 in Memphis.

The Norfolk-Raleigh is High Priority Corridor 13.

I73 was intended to go to Charleston eventually. Note that if it gets there eventually, and I30 is built, it is pretty competitive in distance from Charlotte as the current 77+26 route.

In general, though, the interstate system in NC will need to grow significantly in the next 35 years. States in the NorthEast have a significant number of redundant/parallel freeways in order to avoid route monopolies that lead to extreme congestion. As the big 3 metros grow, we will need many more direct routes because millions of people driving tens or hundreds of miles out of the way is bad in so many ways.

[Jerseyman4]

I like the map Dubone.

Heres the statewide tranportation plan for the future

*Page 27*

BLUE: Freeway

GREEN: Expressway

RED: Boulevard/Arterial

BLACK: Throughfare

Black Dotted Lines OVER COLOR: Needs Improvement

Black Dotted Lines: Recommended

[dubone]

Thanks for posting that long term plan. So maybe you guys see what I mean: the state already plans to upgrade these (US74 and US1) to freeways, so it is just a matter of finding the incremental money to upgrade them further to be an interstate.

By the way, I absolutely cannot tell you how much I hate the odd I74 plan through the swamp, and that extra I20 connector which only saves 10 minutes over multiplexing I20 with I95 to Lumberton and then cutting east. Considering transit has such a stiff standard for cost/travel time saved, that connector is just nuts.

[Creasy336]

Thanks for posting that long term plan. So maybe you guys see what I mean: the state already plans to upgrade these (US74 and US1) to freeways, so it is just a matter of finding the incremental money to upgrade them further to be an interstate.

By the way, I absolutely cannot tell you how much I hate the odd I74 plan through the swamp, and that extra I20 connector which only saves 10 minutes over multiplexing I20 with I95 to Lumberton and then cutting east. Considering transit has such a stiff standard for cost/travel time saved, that connector is just nuts.

The I-95/I-20 multiplex is a great idea...It saves money and all SCDOT would have to do would be signage.

[Jerseyman4]

The I-95/I-20 multiplex is a great idea...It saves money and all SCDOT would have to do would be signage.

I even think the state would not even mind widening US 76 from the state line to Chadbourn to increase capacity for some motorists shaving off the mileage east of Florence(SC). Come to think about it, its not a bad idea for I-20 multiplex signage for I-95 and I-74 because at some point into Brunswick County, I-74 will head due south into the inhabitable wetlands and I-20 will be on its own towards Leland and Wilmington. Although these are not the official plans into Wilmington, it could then even utilize portions of US 421 just west of the Cape Fear River, hop onto MLK Parkway (limited access expressway) and terminate at College Road (just below the I-40 terminus) or at where Market St meets Eastwood Road. Single Point Urban Interchanges could be built at the at-grades intersections to avoid any additional ROW issues (like diamond ramps).

Just wait till the SC forumers read this

[dubone]

On the I20 route: If you do a mileage count from I20 just west of Florence to US74 at Front Street in Wilmington.

The multiplexed route using I95 to Lumberton and then US74 to Wilmington, the mileage is 133.7.

Using the more direct route of US76 between Florence and Whiteville, the mileage is 122.6.

So, a freeway that would cost at least 1/3 of a billion dollars will save a whopping 11.1 miles.

Just the fact that NCDOT actually took the time to draw it on their plans, I think, proves they are not governed by rational thinking.

[Jerseyman4]

^ Very good point

I wouldnt mind driving the extra 12 miles between Florence and Chadbourn.

[Jerseyman4]

I made a map of what I-20 could do for Wilmington.

Heres what the area looks like without my changes.

X = Interchange

Blue = Interstate Highway

[dubone]

Actually, they could route I20 to Front Street and then end it. And if I30 also goes to Wilmington, they could route that on the 17 bypass (planned to be called I140) that runs east-west just north of the airport.

[orulz]

To me, it would make more sense for I-20 to end in Myrtle Beach rather than Wilmington. I mean, having I-20, I-30, and I-40 all end in Wilmington? I can't see South Carolina's congressional delegation being too pleased about that. It makes about as much sense as I-74's route that curves close to Wilmington and then veers away at the last minute to head to MB.

[dubone]

SC can keep I20. I just want I30 .

[UrbanCharlotte]

Haven't kept up with this. What are the chances it gets built?

[dubone]

"Chances" are hard to know at this point. It is a very new idea to make the whole corridor an "interstate". However, the whole stretch will be at minimum a four-lane divided limited access freeway, with interchanges, medians, shoulders, guardrails, and rumble strips. There are only a few sections that aren't planned yet to be interstates, but once the sections are upgraded that are already slated for upgrades, it is not much more to pull the remaining sections up to interstate standards and badging the whole corridor.

• Between Tennessee and Asheville and Hendersonville and Tryon, I40 and I26 are already interstates.

• Between Tryon and Forest City and Mooresboro, US74 is already a limited access freeway.

• Between Mooresboro and Shelby, US74 will be upgraded to limited access (TIP R-4045)

• Around Shelby, a new US74 bypass will be built as a 4 lane limited access freeway (TIP R-2707) (Between 2011 and sometime after 2013)

• Between Shelby and King's Mountain, US74 is already a limited access freeway

• Between King's Mountain and Charlotte, I85 is already an interestate

• Through Charlotte, I485 is already an interstate

• Between Charlotte and Monroe and Marshville, a new US74 bypass will be built as a limited access tollway/freeway (TIP R-2559 and R-3329) (Some sections in 2007, others in 2012, and the rest after 2013)

• Between Marshville and Wadesboro and Rockingham, US74 will be upgraded to a limited access freeway, with a bypass around Wadesboro (TIP R-4441 and R-2411)

• Around Rockingham and Hamlet, US74/I74/I73 is already an Interstate bypass.

• Between Hamlet and Laurinburg, US74 will be upgraded to interstate standards and become I74 (TIP I-3801)

• Around Laurinburg, US74 is already a limited access freeway.

• Between Laurinburg and Lumberton, a new US74 will be built as a limited access freeway (TIP R-513) (Under construction now)

• Between Lumberton and Whiteville, US74 is already a limited access expressway, with some sections freeway with interchanges. Interchanges will be added over time, including one at NC242 in 2010. (TIP R-4900)

• Between Whiteville and Wilmington, US74/76 will be upgraded to interstate standards. (TIP R-4462)

You guys can see more information about each of these projects here: http://apps.dot.state.nc.us/quickfind/Tipsearch/ .

So, as for what are its chances, it is very high that it will be a freeway at minimum for the entire stretch between Asheville and Wilmington through Charlotte. However, many of these projects are listed as "Post Years" (ie. unfunded in the construction plan through 2012). But they will all likely be done by 2020 and most done by 2015, as US74 is already a strategic corridor as part of the intrastate system.

The only thing that is needed to make this project happen as I-30, is to get congress to agree to the naming of the corridor, and for the state to incrementally upgrade all of the divided "freeways" to "interstates". The section between Tryon and King's Mountain is not slated yet to be fully at interstate standards, and neither is the section between Charlotte and Rockingham. The section between Rockingham and Whiteville aren't on the TIP yet to be upgraded to interstate standards, but as part of the I74 corridor, those sections will definitely be done eventually.

Once the state has built what is already on the books, the incremental improvements to add interstate standards to just two sections (both only a couple counties wide) will not be that big of a deal, relatively speaking.

I have attached an image of the sections. This is what it would look like when the state completes all the projects that are already slated for funding eventually (those on the TIP).

[dubone]

Also, if we want to pretend that the scope of I30 will be a more national corridor, going between Asheville and Cleveland (TN) and Chattanooga and Huntsville and Decatur (AL) and Tupelo (MS) and Memphis.... then the NC part would follow US74 through Waynesville, Bryson City, and Murphy.

That section is already slated for upgrade to four lane divided expressways, with some sections freeways, as part of Corridor "K". Many of those upgrades are already done. They'd only need to upgrade the 4 lane divided expressways and freeways to interstate standards to make this happen.

[Jerseyman4]

The Laurinburg-Maxton bypass freeway segment will need to be upgraded in order to be interstate standards.

[cranberries]

Has anyone else thought of skipping the I-30 tagline and using one that hasn't been used.

This would eliminate the need for AR, TN, and AL to hang I-30 signs.

Also there are interstates (74) that are in pieces and not yet put together. option also.

Suggest I-32 or I-28 Neither is in use.

Start at Wilmington and go through charlotte towards Asheville and Cherokee area.

No one can complain about it 'connecting' to anything.

Route in Monroe is north of the city on the planned bypass which will enter I-485 just east of current US74.

It could join I-485 on the south side around past I-77 and to I-85 near the airport ? ( possible connection there), and join I-85 south.... etc.

Charlotte is not going to complete Independence Blvd into a freeway. Far too much build up to the road line.

Thoughts aobut alternate numbering?

Either way, lets get this thing moving - traffic, smog, waste of gas in the area is expensive.