July 4th Riot

[spectacle21]

I think the history of Charlotte and CMS very clearly show a pattern of "white flight". Of course as they leave, non whites move in. These days especially, there are a lot of middle class/working class east coast blacks/minorities moving South (like me) because their hometime cities like NY have become completely inhospitable. I personally know many people who've worked hard (or who's parents had worked hard) to maintain a neighborhood and battled through in Harlem, Bedsty, Fort Greene, LES, Williamsburg, etc and now that the appraisal values of their homes have skyrocketed, they can't pay the taxes on the property on their transit workers pension or VP salary. So they sell (often to the only people who can pay a million plus mortgage - mostly nonblack & latino) and they move. There was an article in the NY Times about this, Harlem residents making over 60K a year who can't hold on to their brownstones and now the entire face of the neighborhood is changing and suddenly there are banks, grocery stores, police service where people were begging for them before. Frankly, I think its scandalous but that's for another thread.

Anyway, I think that white parents are pulling their kids out of CMS as they move to areas outside of Charlotte. Its a catch22 the bottom line is that white usually = more resources/clout/attention and more of those things typically = better schools. "Minority" parents are chasing a carrot on a stick. There are some success stories across this country with predominately black/latino schools that work well. The issue is getting those programs in place and fighting the uphill battle to make sure that these kids get the attention/funding/effort that they deserve. That is hard. But my mom, grandmother, and people before them always schooled me that being black in this country means that we have to work 100xs as hard to get an equivalent result. That's just the way it is and despite what they say, it hasn't changed. I don't have time to resent it.

Well said lupi! As a recent product of CMS (class of 2004), I have to say that the race topic has always been....hmmmm...bounced around in a nonsensical manner. Although CMS (compared to other school systems in American) is surprisingly fairly equal as far as diversity in schools, the system ALWAYS found a way to somehow "segregate"...for a lack of a better term. The choice plan is a GREAT example - confining students to a specific zone that coincides to where they live, work, play, & interact culturally. I was in the Purple Zone (Garinger, East Meck, Independence, Butler). My home school was Garinger...but I REALLY wanted to go to East Meck. I was not allowed to attend East Meck b/c I lived a few blocks from Garinger...but there were friends of mine who literally lived across the street from me who were bused directly to East Meck. Thus, a lot of us used alternate addresses to attend the school of our desired choice. Also, I attended Crestdale Middle from 1998-2000...the first two years it was open. Towards the end of my sixth grade year, I got a letter in the mail offering me an opportunity to attend this brand-spanking new middle school WAYYEEE out in Matthews. Why did I get the letter? Because I'm Black and the school desperately needed @ least 100 black students to desegregate the school. So, I went to the school 7th & 8th grade b/c I was being bused. I loved the school! I loved the resources! But, I hated the fact that I was the ONLY Black student in 6 out of 8 of my classes! I was in most of the gifted courses...so I was excluded from those classes where most (if not, ALL) of my Black friends were bunched in specific periods. Therefore, certain class periods became infamously known by students & teachers as "The Black Classes." I graduated from Garinger and I'm a sophomore @ Morehouse College now.

Sorry this was long, but I really wanted to stress the point that CMS tries to come off as a fully-integrated system that works without race being an issue....when its the COMPLETE OPPOSITE! When I reflect on my CMS years, I realize that all the busing...magnet school programs...Academically Gifted/AP courses...were just more continuations of a "suddle" segregation that is continuing in our schools.

[SmellyCat]

Much of it these days comes from the lack of good morals and support occuring in the home. It's not the place of the school to become a surrogate parent but that is what many expect of the school system these days. Unfortunately when schools have to spend time on this it takes away from the time and energy they can spend on actually providing an education.

Amen. I wish parents would start taking responsibility for the actions of their own kids and stop blaming society and schools for everything. Kids learn their behavior by observing their parents or parent - that is, if they're even around to be observed. The lack of morality and family values continues to erode. Many parents barely take interest in who their kids hang out with or where they go after school. If some punk threatens a teacher or if student absenteeism is 40%, who's fault is that, the school? No, but people will continue to look for a scapegoat because they can't handle looking in the mirror and seeing their own failure as bad parents.

[lupitachica]

I wasn't disputing that there are black parents appalled at the state of the public schools. But the reality is that economics plays a role as to who gets to go to private schools - only those who can afford to do so will. The result is that those that can't (white/black/otherwise) are forced to place their children in public school where the relative handful of "bad apples" corrupt the entire bunch. I would not suggest that most kids in public schools are insubordinate or out of control, or lack any home training. The problem is a combination of factors including a situation where the lose of resources, overcrowding, less qualified teacher, etc. coupled with the very real factor of larger than ordinary numbers of at risk kids create a negative educational environment.

Let's be real, if it were just about teaching your kid morals and sending them off assured that they would follow your lead then everyone would send their kid to the free school. Parents who can place their kids in smaller, better resourced, better taught environments do so because they know that these things matter. Its not that the kids at these private institutions are necessarily better home trained - the same kids that are using more drugs than their public school counterparts, are equally sexually promiscuous, are fully participating in recent the increase in cheating? Please. Private schools and the parents who support them can to counsel the troubled, weed out the troublemakers, and manipulate the landscape to put their students in the best situation. I don't blame them but let's not act like this makes these kids morally superior.

I wish parents would start taking responsibility for the actions of their own kids and stop blaming society and schools for everything.

Rest assured this is not what I'm doing. But having seen the disparity in education I know that the public school problem is about more than just irresponsible parents. There are a host of factors that come into play. And the immorality in the decision making isn't just happening in the homes, the school board, the politicians, the teachers, etc. all have something to answer for too.

Again, I invite the forum to read the Subversion of Swann in regards to segretation/class issue in CMS. ITs very interesting and would be great for this discussion.

[lupitachica]

While offtopic of the 7/4 "Riot", this snippet from a paper about affluent black suburban "Prince George's County, MD", speaks to the issue of race/school quality, segregation/integration that we were touching on in this conversation. Metrom, is there a better place for me to put this?

The lines emphasized are from me:

...The suburban ideal is largely a chimera for African Americans living in exclusive all-black suburbs.

The experience of the affluent black suburban communities in Prince George's County, Maryland,

supports this contention. Prince George's County has received a great deal of public attention for its

transformation from a majority-white county that was hostile to racial integration to the highest percapita

income, majority-black jurisdiction in the United States. n11 Located in the southern and

western parts of the greater Washington, D.C. metropolitan region, Prince George's County is home

to tony black suburbs with names like Paradise Acres [*733] and Lake Arbor. n12 Yet the affluent,

all-black suburban enclaves in the southern part of the county are located in the opposite direction

from the locus of most new job growth in the region - the high-tech corridors of northern Virginia.Consequently, these black suburban communities struggle to compete for an attractive commercial

tax base. Retailers have shunned these areas, most likely because of ignorance or indifference to

black buying power. n13 In addition, whites have fled the county as blacks have reached a critical

mass. As whites have left, lower-income minorities have moved in, taking advantage of affordable

housing prices. n14 The influx of lower-and moderate-income residents has increased the demand

for social and public services. This has, in turn, affected school quality. Consequently, many black

middle-class Prince Georgians pay for private school tuition rather than rely on local public schools.

Drawing heavily on the example of Prince George's County, this Article documents these trends and

argues that African Americans fare better - at least in terms of government services, local taxes, and

access to educational and economic opportunity - in integrated settings. While middle-class black

enclaves may be premised on a confident separatism, the rightfully proud residents of these

communities must face a painful reality. Try as they might, they cannot completely control their own

destiny simply by gaining political control of a suburban locality. Externalities beyond their control

are inevitable - a chief external factor being the race-laden private decisions of people and

institutions not to invest in, locate in, or cooperate with all-black communities. Try as they might,

residents of these black enclaves also cannot completely escape their lower-income brethren or the

social distress associated with low-income minority communities.

This reflects a larger conundrum most affluent or middle-class blacks in America face. They cannot

live the American suburban dream if that dream means replicating exclusive white suburbs - that is,

an enclave of "one's own" with high-quality schools, low property taxes, and desired amenities. The

evidence this Article presents suggests that this dream will elude black Americans. The evidence also

suggests that blacks with economic means are faced with a stark choice: racial segregation versus

living in communities where they are vastly outnumbered by whites, a kind of integration they may

not want. n15

[EastSideResider]

I still think segregation in schools has a lot to do with "white flight" from Charlotte in general, not just CMS. Charlotte in about 15 years will be 15% hispanic, 40% black-non hispanic and 40% white non-hispanic and 5% Asian/Multiracial/American Indian/other/etc. (give or take a few). CMS is just following the same pattern Charlotte is.

[monsoon]

I have lived in Mecklenburg county for almost 30 years and have seen this from both ends. I really don't think there has been a huge White flight out of the county. The biggest reason the percentages are changing is because there are a lot of non-Whites moving and being born into the county, not because Whites are moving out.

The city by itself grew by 90,000 in just the last 5 years, and you simply can't have that if a majority of the Whites were fleeing the city. Contrast that to cities where real white flight occured such as St. Louis & Detroit where the cities went from being some of the largest in the country to shells of their former selves. STL for example lost 500,000 between 1950-2000.

Sure people are moving to Union, Cabarrus, and Iredell counties, but I think for the most parts, that has nothing to do with race but instead more to do with lower taxes and real estate costs. Charlotte has become an expensive place to live which is another sign there isn't white flight from the city.

[SmellyCat]

One of the many reasons I moved to the area was because I thought racial tolerance was better here than in the northeast and people integrated more. I live with my fiancee (I am white, she is black) in uptown in part because I feel people of different backgrounds interact especially more there. First Ward is a perfect example of how this harmony can wonderfully exist.

As far as white flight, again, I'm fairly new to the area and am not that familiar with the past. I will tell you that nowhere have I seen more racially segregated areas than in the NYC area suburbs such as Long Island, Westchester and New Jersey. Talk about white flight. Voting districts are essentially drawn around racial boundaries, it's so pathetic. Charlotte is light years ahead of those areas in terms of racial integration.

[monsoon]

Indeed Smelly...

Charlotte has often been recognized in the past for being a very racially tolerant city. There are many integrated neighborhoods here that would not be tolerated in other cities in the USA and especially in the North where white flight destroyed many of those places. Time Magazine did a story on this very subject a number of years ago concerning Charlotte's high level of integtration. My last neighborhood was about 50/50 of both races and everyone got along.

It's interesting to note that among growing southern metros, Charlotte is one of the very few places where the core is growing at a faster rate than the metro and it represents more than 50% of the population. There are not many other places in the South were you see that going on. It is another sign that white flight has not and is not occuring in the Metro area.

In seeing further accounts of the riot at North Meck. I am more convinced the 15 trouble makers are products of very bad upbringings who don't respect authority, the rules and laws, and show little respect for others let alone themselves. It is a shame that children are raised this way because once they reach the age these youngers have reached, it is most likely they are going to be a big problem for society in the long run. They are throwing away their "gift" of an education which will affect them for the rest of their lives. I don't expect the schools to fix this problem but they need to admit that it exists and not transport these problem kids into schools where decent children are trying to education and then expect the problems to just go away.

[lupitachica]

So what do you all think of this article:

Stopping the Bleeding

[ngp]

So what do you all think of this article:

Stopping the Bleeding

Seriously, Tara Servatius can go f--k herself. At least the brand of sensationalism the TV stations like to sell is transparently absurd. "Citizen Servatius" is little more than a stat wrangler who's lucky to have found a publication that cares as little about journalistic integrity as she does.

Gah! I'm not a fan. She could author a 10,000 word essay on how awesome I am and I'd still be a hater. The departure of David Walters gave me a good reason to never pick up another copy of Creative Loafing again.

[monsoon]

So what do you all think of this article:

Stopping the Bleeding

I read that article and it supports every point that I have made thus far. This is the relevant quote

Sixty-five percent of the residents of this county are white and the majority of the people in this county are not poor. They're just too damned alienated, and fed up with a system whose leaders have spent the last decade snubbing them, to play the game anymore. And it's those people whose absence has created a de facto urban system where one should not exist.

In other words people are not leaving CMS because of race, they are leaving it because they are disgusted (rightfully so) with the leadership of a system which continues to fail the students. The school system will not deal with the bad apples that lead to the riots posted above, so the parents have no choice to put their students in schools where they feel they will be safe.

Case in point, of the 15 students that caused the riot, a number of them are just being re-assigned to another school. Rather than deal with the difficulties of expelling troublesome students, CMS just moves the problem to another school hoping it will go away. It is this indifference to the concerns of parents that is leading for a number of parents, both White & Black, to remove their students from CMS. It has nothing to do with race as you would seem to suggest but is not supported by this article.

Now the end result is there will be a bigger percentage of poorer students in the school system and since the poor are disproportionately Black they are becoming a bigger percentage of the school system. It is a shame and another reason that I feel that CMS needs to be broken up.

[Seeker]

[

Case in point, of the 15 students that caused the riot, a number of them are just being re-assigned to another school. Rather than deal with the difficulties of expelling troublesome students, CMS just moves the problem to another school hoping it will go away. It is this indifference to the concerns of parents that is leading for a number of parents, both White & Black, to remove their students from CMS. It has nothing to do with race as you would seem to suggest but is not supported by this article.

/quote]

I'm afraid I don't know all of the facts, but when you say reassigned to another school, are you referring to one of the alternative schools? If so, I don't think I have a problem with that. Obviously something has changed since most of us were kids. Those of us from here know we didn't grow up with a police precense in the schools. If they're sent to an alternaitve school, maybe thic keeps them from getting too far behind and keeps them off the streets. I'm supporting this in cases of when it appears to be a fight on campus. If it's a more serious charge then charge them accordingly. Unfortunately you can come down to the court house on any day of the week and see plenty of 16 year olds who are charged as adults.

[monsoon]

If they're sent to an alternaitve school, maybe thic keeps them from getting too far behind and keeps them off the streets. I'm supporting this in cases of when it appears to be a fight on campus. If it's a more serious charge then charge them accordingly. Unfortunately you can come down to the court house on any day of the week and see plenty of 16 year olds who are charged as adults.

If this is where they went and those schools are equipped to instill some discipline into those students, I am in agreement with you. However, last year there was a rather big student at Hopewell that hit a smaller kid in the head with a bottle. The kid required extensive surgury to repair the damage to his head. As it turns out the older kid that had caused the trouble had been in trouble in another school, and rather than deal with it, CMS just transferred them to Hopewell where the end result was a tragedy for an innocent kid.

It should be noted that several of the people charged in the North Meck incident already had police records. My feeling is that 16 year olds should be fully aware at that age the consequences of crime, and be made to pay as an adult if they commit the crime. The sad fact of the matter is if they had parents who cared and kept them at home, you would see a lot less of it.

You are correct there was once no need for police in the schools. But in those days you had families that taught their children some respect, good morals, and how to behave in public. We don't have that anymore unfortunately.

[EastSideResider]

Growing up outside of Charlotte, everyone in my old city thought that Charlotte was one of the most racially diverse cities and racially tolerant cities they have ever heard of.

I disagree that Charlotte has become an expensive place to live, because it's overall price of living was 107.1 and the U.S. average is 100. And for LARGE cities, it is one of the cheapest.

I agree that Charlotte is rapidly ahead of most cities in racial segregation. People in other cities would be celebrating if segregation was like Charlotte's, we just see this as a problem for OUR standards....

[monsoon]

I disagree that Charlotte has become an expensive place to live, because it's overall price of living was 107.1 and the U.S. average is 100. And for LARGE cities, it is one of the cheapest.

I was speaking relative to the surrounding counties.

[lupitachica]

It has nothing to do with race as you would seem to suggest but is not supported by this article.

I didn't suggest anything about the article at all, I asked your thoughts.

Anyway, when is it ever "ALL" about race? There are always a set of circumstances that create the climate for what goes on, race being s factor. "White flight" is a term that basically describes the trend of upper/middle class white moving away from predominantly nonwhite innercities. Historically, there were always these same reasons and issues being discussed as to why. And essentially the same things are happening now with the CMS - those that can (predominately white) run from a school system perceived to be failing/on the verge of failings/outright failing which only opens the wound more. People are also physically leaving the county too. Whether anyone wants to characterize it as "racist" or not - I really don't care. The end result is the same now isn't it? And the end result is:

.... there will be a bigger percentage of poorer students in the school system and since the poor are disproportionately Black (which some would say has nothing to do with racism but I beg to differ) they are becoming a bigger percentage of the school system

.

As is typical that when the upper and middle class (which some may say are disproportionately white) aren't participating in the system, it fails because wealth often = power and these are the people with the clout/time /skills/money to get the changes that are needed. What does that mean for the kids who are left behind, most of whom are not "rioting", most of whom are not white and most of whom will not get the skills/education they need to propel them into the upper/middle class position (and even when they do face the same problem).

As for all this "back in the day people had morals" stuff. My mom had dogs sic'ed on her legs by agents of this "moral society". I won't even speak on what my grandparents went through. People didn't have more morality before just different bad/ugly behaviors but certainly not more morality. History tells us how moral this society was. Violence in school is, imo, an epidemic that speaks to an overall lack of morality in the entire American society. The same kind of immorality that makes us a big drug using wasteland of thieves and crooks. Frankly, I think it starts waaayyy at the top and goes all the way down.

[MZT]

FWIW, I think Charlotte is expensive. The property tax on my modest "starter" ranch home is $1550 a year and will probably increase again when the next council is sworn in. How much burden on city services is a guy that doesn't have kids, and doesn't get arrested, or cause fires?

If Charlotte had a school system everyone was proud of, at least we could argue that "you get what you pay for". Instead we're being asked to approve another 400 mil in bonds next year, for the most expensive system in the state, which seems to be alienating half the people in the county.

[monsoon]

As is typical that when the upper and middle class (which some may say are disproportionately white) aren't participating in the system, it fails because wealth often = power and these are the people with the clout/time /skills/money to get the changes that are needed. What does that mean for the kids who are left behind, most of whom are not "rioting", most of whom are not white and most of whom will not get the skills/education they need to propel them into the upper/middle class position (and even when they do face the same problem).

As for all this "back in the day people had morals" stuff. My mom had dogs sic'ed on her legs by agents of this "moral society". I won't even speak on what my grandparents went through. People didn't have more morality before just different bad/ugly behaviors but certainly not more morality. History tells us how moral this society was. Violence in school is, imo, an epidemic that speaks to an overall lack of morality in the entire American society. The same kind of immorality that makes us a big drug using wasteland of thieves and crooks. Frankly, I think it starts waaayyy at the top and goes all the way down.

Removing kids from the school system and moving out of the county are two different things. Charlotte is a very affluent county and everyone gets taxed to support the school system here regardless of whether they have kids in school or not. Unlike the inner city schools of the north, the system here is well funded and has plenty of resources. Spending/student is higher in Mecklenburg county than any other system in NC, surburban counties included. The resources are there to provide a good education, what is lacking is good leadership and parent's who would teach their students the value of a good education. This is a problem of all races and I agree it is a bad symptom of American society these days where sports heros are more revered than engineers, scientists and anyone else looking for a useful degree.

I can't speak to your mom and grandmother and I won't argue that Blacks were not done a big injustice by the system for the 100 years after the Civil War. My ancesters were Native American and they know all too well how about how the injustice of the system. However, we are talking about 2005 and all of those abuses are in the past. We can choose to continue to blame our lot in life on what happened to our predecessors, or decide today is the first day of the rest of our lives, and choose to do something productive and useful with the rest of it. You can't change the past, but hopefully will learn from it and move on. It is folly to keep blaming today's problems on events that happened decades ago.

[graydog]

[

Case in point, of the 15 students that caused the riot, a number of them are just being re-assigned to another school. Rather than deal with the difficulties of expelling troublesome students, CMS just moves the problem to another school hoping it will go away. It is this indifference to the concerns of parents that is leading for a number of parents, both White & Black, to remove their students from CMS. It has nothing to do with race as you would seem to suggest but is not supported by this article.

/quote]

I'm afraid I don't know all of the facts, but when you say reassigned to another school, are you referring to one of the alternative schools? If so, I don't think I have a problem with that. Obviously something has changed since most of us were kids. Those of us from here know we didn't grow up with a police precense in the schools. If they're sent to an alternaitve school, maybe thic keeps them from getting too far behind and keeps them off the streets. I'm supporting this in cases of when it appears to be a fight on campus. If it's a more serious charge then charge them accordingly. Unfortunately you can come down to the court house on any day of the week and see plenty of 16 year olds who are charged as adults.

The premise is still valid even if CMS moves a few kids. The schools and the teachers are not in control. One kid will disrupt an entire class period and the teacher can't do anything about it because the teacher is afraid for their safety. Or, they know it's futile because if the kid is reprimended, the kid comes back the next day without a behavioral change. Thta undercuts the teacher, so why bother, right? I've heard these stories everyday from our kids. I've heard these stories from other parents. These problems are managed at a private school, so the people who can afford it send their kids there.

[Seabreeze]

Shouldn't this convo be in another thread about school systems?

[lupitachica]

My ancesters were Native American and they know all too well how about how the injustice of the system. However, we are talking about 2005 and all of those abuses are in the past.

My ancestors are Native American too (Blackfoot and Cherokee) using the term black did not exclude that (for me). Anyway, these issues & abuses are not in "the past" because while the methods have changed, many of the problems remain the same. You yourself have pointed out how this very real school issue disproportionately affects minority students. Can we agree that most of these students aren't "rioting"? That most are typical kids as gullible and rebellious as teenagers of any race? That most of those in school show up for a reason - education - cause the clearly could not show up at all? That parents (poor and working poor) are sending their kids to school each day in the hopes that they will learn something and have opportunities? That these children are being failed by the school system which you admit receives a ton of money but is being mismanaged (perhaps deliberately?) and and that this play a role in continuing to create a tier of poorly educated people many of whom will be blocked from the opportunity to succeed because of what they didn't receive in the public school system? A system run by more that a few people (who perhaps) dont' really care about these kids anyway, think their lost causes before they are even born and who believe themselves morally superior to the families and kids stuck in sending their kids to public school because they can't afford better?

Wasn't it NC Commissioner Bill James who said last year

Most people know why CMS (Charlotte-Mecklenburg schools) can't teach kids within the urban black community. They live in a moral sewer with parents who lack the desire to act properly. That immorality impacts negatively the lives of these children and creates an environment where education is considered 'acting white' and lack of education is a 'plus' in their world."

Now not only is this statement factually incorrect (I can present information and statistics to support my case - especially the "acting white comment in relation to education which is such a myth preposterous myth being batted around that its ridiculous) but this is a man who is in a position of leadership. These are the people who get elected in Charlotte?

And please nobody don't quote the uneducated and uninformed Bill Cosby who's own daughter became of drug addict despite his money, access to opportunity, and all his supposed "family values".

[monsoon]

Bill James of course has expressed an opinion. He is a county commissioner elected from a district. I can also find county commissioners from Black districts that have said similar things so I am not sure what the point is here. For example former Council member Hoyle Martin, elected from a predominately Black district had this to say about Gays in Charlotte. "If I had my way, we'd shove these people off the face of the earth." I am an openly Gay man, and while I was disappointed to hear him speak this way, I assume this was not the opinion of the majority of the people he represents. And I certainly don't dwell on attitudes such as this for my problems in life.

In any case, the Mecklenburg County Commision does not run CMS. This is the province of the Charlotte Mecklenburg Board of Education. This Board has failed the students and it has nothing to do with race. Everyone has the power in this County to vote in a Board that would address its shortcomings but because people continue to dwell on race we end up with polarizing people that end up not getting anything done. This is a problem with both Black and White candidates.

However the problems in the schools are not just a problem of mismanagement. As I have said earler, many students are not being taught proper morals, how to behave in public, and how to respect themselves and others. The result of this is the creation of a problem the any school district is ill equipped to deal with because it is taboo to discuss the reasons that have led to this situation in the first place. If any attempts are made to address the issue, then right off the bat we get charges of racism, and it goes downhill from there.

[lupitachica]

This Board has failed the students and it has nothing to do with race. Everyone has the power in this County to vote in a Board that would address its shortcomings but because people continue to dwell on race we end up with polarizing people that end up not getting anything done.

That is your opinion and that is why I like this forum, we are able to discuss and debate.

Now I would never that blacks don't say disturbing (racist and classist) things about themselves & others (hence my commentary on Cosby) so the point about the black commissioner is sort of mute. I didn't know the race of Bill James and frankly it was irrelevant because black, white or otherwise his comments are still factually incorrect and blatantly false. Also, before I get back on topic, addressing issues surrounding race can only polarize, imo, when people refuse to acknowledge that there is an issue there. To talk about how & where racism plays a role in a situation is not to "focus" on race and to characterize it as such leaves no room for truthful commentary and assessments on what is going on.

Now back to the problem in schools.

The result of this is the creation of a problem the any school district is ill equipped to deal with because it is taboo to discuss the reasons that have led to this situation in the first place. If any attempts are made to address the issue, then right off the bat we get charges of racism, and it goes downhill from there.

And what are these"taboo" reasons that can't get discussed that have led to this situation? Schools filled with poor minorities have historically never done as well as schools filled with the middleclass/wealthy majority - long before today's general moral decline. What is the reason for this?

Is morality in American society declining overall, hell yeah, but I don't think the CMS system is a failure because the kids are simply bad. And though "Spending/student is higher in Mecklenburg county than any other system in NC, surburban counties included" that doesnt mean the money is well spent. I'd love to see a breakdown of where the money goes - clearly its not purchasing quality?

Now the issue of the morality of the overall student body - a majority of whom are black - was brought up then its important to look at the "moral" choices black students are making in comparison to their more successful white counterparts. If we are to simply say that the kids in this system (many who are "disproportionately" poor are not as morally centered and that explains the failing system then it would stand to reason that other children who make seemingly immoral & illegal choices would also cause their schools to fail, right? Or am I off on this? My point is that white students (generally) are somehow going to better schools and doing better in school even as the numbers show that in many areas they are making comparably less moral choices. If the morality of the student body is going to be blamed for the trouble in public schools (not just in CMS but across the nation) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the students who make up the bulk of the "troubled" schools would be making bad moral choices overwhelming as they are supposedly so much more morally corrupt?

Among twelfth-grade students, black youth are more likely than white youth to attend religious services. In 2003, 45 percent of black twelfth graders attended religious services regularly compared with 31 percent of white

Black students are much more likely than white students to report that religion plays a very important role in their lives. For example, among twelfth graders in 2003, 56 percent of black students reported that religion played a very important role in their lives, compared with 26 percent of white students.

Percentage of white high school seniors who smoked at least one cigarette in the month prior to being surveyed in 2003: 28.2%

[monsoon]

Among twelfth-grade students, black youth are more likely than white youth to attend religious services. In 2003, 45 percent of black twelfth graders attended religious services regularly compared with 31 percent of white

I think before you can draw any conclusions you should look at the percentage that actually make it to the twelfth grade. I am assuming the bad apples have mostly been weeded out by this point and never make it to graduation. The remaining students of course are going to do well.

The offending students in the North Mecklenburg riot for example were all 9th and 10th graders.

I agree with you however that bad and improper morals, behavior and lack of respect are being taught to children of both blacks and whites these days. And I will add that many of the well off students also have an underserved sense of entitlement that the world owes them something. That is one reason we don't approve of children posting at UrbanPlanet.

[lupitachica]

I think before you can draw any conclusions you should look at the percentage that actually make it to the twelfth grade. I am assuming the bad apples have mostly been weeded out by this point and never make it to graduation. The remaining students of course are going to do well.

Maybe, but that would be true of all groups and the point remains the same. Every senior kid was a 8th and 9th grader at some point so I don't think there would be a massive difference comparitively.

Whatever the background of the kids involved in the trouble at North Meck, I certainly don't think its a reflection of the students in the school on a whole - it rarely ever is. Yet they are all going to be painted by that brush.