July 4th Riot

[Miesian Corners]

There is no real threat of terrorism, that

[monsoon]

Indeed. One of the stated goals of Bin Laden is to disrupt the American financial system. What better way to do this than to hit the country's largest bank.

[ElricSeven]

Having recently moved back to Charlotte from Philadelphia, I was watching CBS news at 11pm the night this "riot" took place and I had to chuckle at how much coverage the whole thing was given. About all I can say about this is that this is the kind of things that happen in cities. I dont want to downplay the incident, but I can imagine that this group of people felt targeted by the police uptown. Just because there is a large group of people doesnt mean anyone should be "alarmed". I was shocked to find out they were herding people block by block away from the square.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think if you were in the middle of it and had children with you and in your care, you might be singing a different tune. I'm guessing many of those people aren't going to be coming back.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

While I don't disagree with you completely, this morning's events are sobering.

That is exactly what I thought when I heard the news.

[monsoon]

Apparently a Riot broke out at North Mecklenburg HS this afternoon requiring a response from numerous police from Huntersville, Char/Meck, and the NCHP. Police had to tazer some of the students and numerous students were arrested. Despite this, CMS says the school is safe. NMHS is the largest highschool in the CMS system. No news on what happened.

Interesting this time the police and news refers to it as a riot instead of a melee.

[DigitalSky]

"Huntersville police said North Meck is the largest school in the state in terms of population and they can only afford one officer for the school. They are trying to get additional funding. "

so they're the STATE'S largest school, not only Char Meck's

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/storie...ht.ddf9e5c.html

[peaceloveunderstanding]

on the news they said some of the kids involved are known to be gang members.

[lupitachica]

I watched various new reports on this supposed "riot" in North Meck. The reporters didn't offer any facts or information, and the comments that these were "gang members" seemed like pure speculation to me. I didn't see one interview with any teenagers who attend the school (people whom I assume would be familiar with whatever issues there are there). It sounded to me like a fight broke out any confusion there was made worse by overly physical & uninformed police. Watching the news I didn't learn one thing about the real reason why the fights started. I must say the local news reporting here is terrible.

Having recently moved back to Charlotte from Philadelphia, I was watching CBS news at 11pm the night this "riot" took place and I had to chuckle at how much coverage the whole thing was given.

Who are you telling? Over a month later and this incident was the talk of the town? I'm sure there were issues on the 4th - its the 4th. But the coverage, imo, exceeded the seriousness of the incident.

[monsoon]

It does seem after reading the paper this morning that NMHS is too crowded. It seems to me that CMS could solve this problem by shifting some students to some of the less populated schools like Garinger.

[ngp]

It sounded to me like a fight broke out any confusion there was made worse by overly physical & uninformed police.

The police stopped a fight. I don't think being overly physical is a concern if it prevents the situation from escalating. At this point, it's as much of a PR issue as it is a safety issue. If police hadn't swarmed the scene and tried their best to contain the issue, how much worse would this anti-CMS, anti-CharMeck crusade have become? What if a kid had ended up dead? What if a white kid had ended up dead? What

[lupitachica]

The police stopped a fight. I don't think being overly physical is a concern if it prevents the situation from escalating. If police hadn't swarmed the scene and tried their best to contain the issue, how much worse would this anti-CMS, anti-CharMeck crusade have become? What if a kid had ended up dead? What if a white kid had ended up dead?

I wasn't there. I don't know what the police "stopped" or what they further instigated in the process of "stopping". I don't know if they did their best or acted their worst. The police are not Gods or saints and I don't give carte blanche or the benefit of the doubt to them anymore than the average citizen - they are people with their own issues. I say this as someone with friends and family who have choosen the career of policing - it is a job and not everyone does their job well. I do think that any situation that requires officers using stun guns/tazers on students while attempting to end a lunchroom fight should be investigated further as to whys and hows. That is not typical or usual and the causes of this should be explored.

And if a white kid had ended up dead then that would be as sad as if any child of any other race/ethnicitt/nationality had lost their life. All children are valuable - unfortunately some people don't feel that way. I'm not more worried about the ramifications of a white death than a non white one for fear of the reaction of white people. As a society we should be concerned about all kids and those who aren't speak volumes about themselves.

My commentary primarily was about the television news reporting which, from what I saw, revealed little details about the incident and offered nothing but random speculation on the whys and hows. This, imo, only causes more fear in people who's children go to this school and/or may be considering sending their child there.

[ngp]

And if a white kid had ended up dead then that would be as sad as if any child of any other race/ethnicitt/nationality had lost their life. All children are valuable - unfortunately some people don't feel that way. I'm not more worried about the ramifications of a white death than a non white one for fear of the reaction of white people. As a society we should be concerned about all kids and those who aren't speak volumes about themselves.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. In the context of the overcrowding/underfunding issues in CMS, what would the larger repercussions be if a kid died? In the context of the obvious problem of white flight from CMS, what would the repercussions be if a white kid died?

I don't know the answers to those questions. They're worth considering, though, especially before I let myself become indignant over a kid getting tazed for attacking a cop.

[lupitachica]

I have a hard time framing the issue of white flight from CMS as a "problem" in the sense that I truly believe there has to be a solution that does not require that minority children and their ability to receive a quality education always be at the mercy of "white flight". Thinking this way, imo, allows that a white life is more valuable than a black one on the basis of the perception that white flight must always equal a disintergration of educational quality and therefore "oh my goodness if a white kid died they'll leave in droves and our schools will fall apart because we need them". Part of the reason that this perception becomes reality so often is because many of us accept it as a given and tolerate inequality and disservice.

I don't know the answers to those questions. They're worth considering, though, especially before I let myself become indignant over a kid getting tazed for attacking a cop.

Well first wouldn't we have to find out IF a kid

attacked

a cop. To assume so is a bit presumptious, dont' you think. As someone who's watched police sweep neighborhoods arresting/manhandling/and abusing innocent and guilty alike - I'm hesitant to accept one spin on this story. This is what I'm talking about, the presumption that these children (white/black/or otherwise) who got tazed must have been doing something wrong which caused them to be tazed without any evidence at all (based on what I saw on the news reports). I heard there was a fight, I have no idea who got tazed, fight participants, innocent bystanders, what? I also have very little solid information on why the fight started, an accurate number of participants and from what I saw very little comment from any actual eyewitnesses on the local news.

[ngp]

I have a hard time framing the issue of white flight from CMS as a "problem" in the sense that I truly believe there has to be a solution that does not require that minority children and their ability to receive a quality education always be at the mercy of "white flight". Thinking this way, imo, allows that a white life is more valuable than a black one on the basis of the perception that white flight must always equal a disintergration of educational quality and therefore "oh my goodness if a white kid died they'll leave in droves and our schools will fall apart because we need them". Part of the reason that this perception becomes reality so often is because many of us accept it as a given and tolerate inequality and disservice.

I think "quality education" is a pretty relative term, but I'm betting that a homogenous student body is counter to either of our definitions. Despite that, you make a very good point. White flight is just a symptom of bigger problems (not so much racial, but economic IMHO), and you can't cure a disease by treating only the symptoms. Still, for the sake of neighboring counties, it couldn't hurt to get a handle on the mass exodus of students. I can't wait to see Union County in a few years.

As for the attacking thing, I'm just going based on the articles I've read.

He said up to 700 students were in the cafeteria about 11 a.m. when the pair started fighting just outside. He said a police officer broke up the fight and had the boys handcuffed when a sister of one of them started pushing the officer.

She was shot with a Taser after she was warned to stop.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...=charlotte_news

I guess if "attacked" is too strong, we can stick to the legal term: assaulted. The second tazer incident is a little more ambiguous. I would guess that with hundreds of witnesses, it will be closely investigated.

I have to admit -and this is a personal bias- I find it hard to beileve that somebody who's just standing around minding their own business and avoiding the conflict as best they can will end up getting shot. Unless the officer was a nervous greenhorn or something.

Where does North Meck get its students? If it's predominantly fed by Huntersville, then I find that irony hugely satisfying.

[lupitachica]

I think "quality education" is a pretty relative term, but I'm betting that a homogenous student body is counter to either of our definitions.

Aren't many of the best schools in US homogenous in both in terms of ethnicity and class? When discussing "white flight" we are talking about people who flee to go where everyone else looks/acts like themselves right? And then they place their kids in new schools until the minorities follow and when a certain equalibrium is disturbed - they run again (unless they can afford private which means they can limit the number of minorities/poor they must rub elbows with). A homogenous student body has not prevented white students, particularly middle/uppermiddle class from succeeding. Its only perceived as a problem when minority students are the majority because these schools historically have been inferior if not for educational reasons (pre "integration" many all black schools were actually very good) then for environmental/materials available/etc reasons (they were seperate but never equal in terms of funding, etc). The real issue with white flight for nonwhite students is the lose of resources. The black upper/middle tend to send their children to predominately white schools to benefit from those resources, diverting whatever strengths they have to those environments at the expense of a predominately black one - imo.

I read a good paper on school segregation in Charlotte: Subverting Swann: First and Second Generation Segregation in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. Dont' have the link but you should be able to google it and read the entire paper that was published in the American Educational Research Journal 2001. What's funny is that I don't even have children but I'm very interested in this topic :-) .

On a side note, I find the quality of the Charlotte Observer to be on par with the NY Daily News.

I have to admit -and this is a personal bias- I find it hard to beileve that somebody who's just standing around minding their own business and avoiding the conflict as best they can will end up getting shot.

Having witnessed otherwise, I disagree. In addition, "avoiding conflict" sometimes means letting police trample over your rights or suffer the consequences of a person who has appointed themselves judge and jury. But we can agree to disagree

[monsoon]

Where does North Meck get its students? If it's predominantly fed by Huntersville, then I find that irony hugely satisfying.

The answer to that is no. Under the current Choice plan students are assigned to a home school but can attend any school in their choice zone. Below is a map of the zones. The green zone includs two Huntersville schools and two very troubled schools, West Mecklenburg and Vance. Parents don't want to send their kids to these two schools and instead send them to Huntersville. Hence you have extreme overcrowding in Hopewell and N. Mecklenburg, while West Charlotte and Vance are under capacity.

White flight does not affect the current school system in Charlotte, because it is a county wide system. However race plays a big role in how students are assigned in Charlotte. Officially CMS can't assign based on race anymore so we now have the "Choice" plan which provides inner city students the opportunity to attend suburban schools. However CMS has not invested in the suburban schools which has led to the very bad over crowding we see now. North Meck is an old school and was never designed to handle 3000 students.

Vance BTW, is particularly sad. This is a new highschool in which the CEO of IBM came to Charlotte and presented the city with free land and made a substantial investment to creat a high technology highschool. There were some in CMS however that took this as IBM buying seats for its employees and made some very nasty comments about the company's gift to the city. Adding insult to injury, over the past few years, CMS neglect and incompetance has led to the decline of this school to one that was sought after to one that students now perform below average. Its because of this type of incompetance that I think CMS should be broken up.

[lupitachica]

Hasn't much of the "white flight" already happened? I mean its my understanding that white student enrollment went below 50% years ago, they are like 39% of the school system now. In the meantime Union, York, Cabarrus have added tons of white students to their system.

Your commentary on Vance is very interesting Metro.

[EastSideResider]

If gangs are brought up, it's not a big issue at all. Every school in CMS has gangs, (even schools like providence). We live in Charlotte, a LARGE city... all large cities have gangs everywhere.

North Meck, Butler, East Meck, and Garinger have all had kids tasered this year (only a quarter into the year ) . The thing that confuses me is that North Meck isn't really a "ghetto" school. I know Newsweek Magazine's way of ranking schools was kind of, er... "stupid", but It was ranked 53rd best high school in America, so it isn't really a "scary" school.

I heard from a friend that Butler had 2 kids arrested last week and that wasn't put on the news (a guy headlocked a girl, threw her to the ground, and punched her in the face repeatedly and the other was in the cafeteria between two other people.) I know 8 people arrested is worse, but it was just the "random" school chosen in my opinion. If you put every HS in CMS in a hat and picked one, you could find a problem(s) (just like North Meck's) in all of them.

Charlotte as a city is growing in Black and Hispanic (<- rapidly) population so I think "white flight" isn't as bad as people think because these races are growing in Charlotte, while the white is decreasing. So it isn't as much white kids leaving CMS it's a combination....

[monsoon]

Vance is a very sad story of something that would have been extremely beneficial to the school system. Its a rare day when the CEO of a Fortune 10 company comes to present land, free equipment, and know how to build a high technology campus. And in addition local employees (all highly skilled) were encouraged to volunteer time to help with the effort. And the response spit in the face, mediocrity, and a school is that is now notible for having bad students and poor test scores.

I bet we won't see anything like this again from a major corporation.

[EastSideResider]

**39% is the right number, which is surpising since Charlotte is 50% white.... CMS is about 52% black and 7% hispanic**

**That map is interesting because the green area has North Meck and Hopewell, two good schools**

**The purple area has 3 of the 4 schools that have had taser guns used (Butler, East Meck, Garinger)**

**The closer you get to the eastside and westside of Charlotte, the worse the schools get**

If you agree/disagree please post.....

[ngp]

Aren't many of the best schools in US homogenous in both in terms of ethnicity and class? ...A homogenous student body has not prevented white students, particularly middle/uppermiddle class from succeeding.

Well, you're right about that. Homogenous schools tend to turn out some pretty good stats and numbers. Stuff other school systems look at enviously. I just mean that there are lots of things people can learn and experience that can't be...um...quantified. So the education picked up in a homogenous environment isn't necessarily "complete." But I guess that's what college is for.

Semantics, though. I think I've adequately shown that I know f--k all about the inner workings of CMS. Now would probably be a good time to leave.

[monsoon]

**39% is the right number, which is surpising since Charlotte is 50% white.... CMS is about 52% black and 7% hispanic**

Actually from the CMS website, its the following:

• Black - 43%

• White - 39.7%

• Hispanic - 10.4%

• Asian - 4.2%

• Other - 2.7%

There are several private schools of significant size in Charlotte that I would guess are 95% or more white, plus charter schools and some home schooling.

[monsoon]

A followup to the above discussion on student makeup. Of the 11 students publically identified by the Police in today's Observer that were arrested for fighting and resisting Police, only 1 had a Huntersville address. The remainder were from Charlotte. More were arrested, but because they were under 16, were not identified. A few already had arrest records but were still allowed to attend CMS schools. All of the arrested students were of the same race.

Edit: LOL the Observer is back to referring to it as a melee. I wonder if they bothered to look that up in the dictionary.

[lupitachica]

Charlotte as a city is growing in Black and Hispanic (<- rapidly) population so I think "white flight" isn't as bad as people think because these races are growing in Charlotte, while the white is decreasing. So it isn't as much white kids leaving CMS it's a combination....

I think the history of Charlotte and CMS very clearly show a pattern of "white flight". Of course as they leave, non whites move in. These days especially, there are a lot of middle class/working class east coast blacks/minorities moving South (like me) because their hometime cities like NY have become completely inhospitable. I personally know many people who've worked hard (or who's parents had worked hard) to maintain a neighborhood and battled through in Harlem, Bedsty, Fort Greene, LES, Williamsburg, etc and now that the appraisal values of their homes have skyrocketed, they can't pay the taxes on the property on their transit workers pension or VP salary. So they sell (often to the only people who can pay a million plus mortgage - mostly nonblack & latino) and they move. There was an article in the NY Times about this, Harlem residents making over 60K a year who can't hold on to their brownstones and now the entire face of the neighborhood is changing and suddenly there are banks, grocery stores, police service where people were begging for them before. Frankly, I think its scandalous but that's for another thread.

Anyway, I think that white parents are pulling their kids out of CMS as they move to areas outside of Charlotte. Its a catch22 the bottom line is that white usually = more resources/clout/attention and more of those things typically = better schools. "Minority" parents are chasing a carrot on a stick. There are some success stories across this country with predominately black/latino schools that work well. The issue is getting those programs in place and fighting the uphill battle to make sure that these kids get the attention/funding/effort that they deserve. That is hard. But my mom, grandmother, and people before them always schooled me that being black in this country means that we have to work 100xs as hard to get an equivalent result. That's just the way it is and despite what they say, it hasn't changed. I don't have time to resent it.

[monsoon]

Actually there is at least one, if not more, private schools that cater to Blacks in Charlotte. Black parents are just as appalled at some of the attitudes and lack of respect that have made their way into the public schools (such as North Meck) and have decided to put their children into private school to keep their children away from it.

Much of it these days comes from the lack of good morals and support occuring in the home. It's not the place of the school to become a surrogate parent but that is what many expect of the school system these days. Unfortunately when schools have to spend time on this it takes away from the time and energy they can spend on actually providing an education.