Boston in Decline?

[BostonFaker]

Again, I'm not worried. The markets are just restructuring, everywhere.

[brandon401]

That is a good point. Thanks for the insite, it makes sense

[kurtosis]

From today's New York Times-

Housing Boom Echoes in All Corners of the City

This first question this article raises to me is - why isn't this happening in Boston? It's apparently possible to have strong population growth in an old, northeastern city. If NY is doing so well Boston's decline can't be written off as a completely uncontrollable trend. NY surely has a high turnover rate, but the important thing is that more new people are coming in than the number of people who inevitably leave.

I'd say a large part of the problem are the crushing restrictions on building anything anywhere in the Boston area. For Boston to stay healthy is going to take an aggressive approach towards growth. Simply saying the city is nice as it is won't be enough, people will still leave and no one else will be coming in to replace them.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'm not particularly educated on the subject, but isn't Massachusetts a prohibitively expensive place to do business? "Taxachusetts" after all. I've noticed that chains expanding nationwide often neglect to open in this area, which is an odd phenomenon for a top-10 metro area. There seems to be a sense of inertia with regard to business in Boston. Local chains (Tedeschi, the friggin' Dunkin' Donuts on every street in the state, etc.) seem to flourish in ways that they don't elsewhere, and while I like that this region has retained its individuality I imagine the tradeoff is that it harms growth.

[youbetternot]

I'm not particularly educated on the subject, but isn't Massachusetts a prohibitively expensive place to do business? "Taxachusetts" after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, that is an extremely outdated myth. In top 10's to top 100's, Boston consistently comes in as one of the top places in the country to do business. Effective taxes on businesses are among the lowest in the country.

[TheBostonian]

A guest on the latest available Smart City Radio podcast argues that the census estimates that several American cities lost population since 2000 are methodologically flawed in ways that underestimate population growth in central cities and we will not have a good picture of population change in these cities until the next full census in 2010.

You can listen from this link:

http://www.smartcityradio.com/smartcityrad...smartcityID=234

[Garris]

its sad to see, but not just boston is in decline the hole north east is in decline

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes and no... Many areas of the NE and many municipalities are growing (NYC, Providence, etc), just not nearly as fast as other areas of the nation. There are also some deep pockets of decline (example, upstate NY or Western Mass) that make Boston's questionable dilemma look tiny by comparison.

Certainly, high costs are hurting the entire NE in comparison to other areas of the nation. I know someone (a physician like myself) who just took a job in the South saying, "Man, they'll pay me 1/3rd more than in the NE, and for what would buy me a decent 3 bedroom, 2 car garage on a tiny lot in a Boston suburb, I can have a near estate on 20 acres in the town I'll be in for 1/3rd the cost!"

Indeed, BusinessWeek (which I respect tremendously) just ran a financial advice article that said that the #1 thing people can do for their personal budgets is to move out of a high price area (much of the CA coast, Pacific NW, NE, Miami, etc) to a low price area (Midwest, AZ, Georgia, Texas, etc) to the tune of near 50-100% increased budget flexibility. This and my personal example above, of course, ignore the things you can't get in those later areas (culture, diversity, cuisine, etc). In my view, it's so easy to move in today's society that all these things are self selective... People who care about culture, diversity, urban living, etc will continue to gravitate to the NE, and people who care most about cheap living will go down South and elsewhere. Those self selections will have consequences, both good and bad, for all areas...

One area that we've discussed in the Providence board that I think hurts all of New England is that, compared to the Mid-Atlantic states and other regions of the nation, New England's schools (including Mass and Boston) have a bad reputation amongst parents and educators. Look at Newsweek's list (however flawed) of the 500 best high schools in the US. There weren't many from New England in there, and only one from RI. Quality of schools was a big reason someone else I knew just moved from RI to a Phily suburb.

As an outsider (I don't live in Boston), I think Boston's costs hurt it enormously and was a powerful reason I took a job here in Providence I was offered over one I was offered in Boston. I mean, this place is as expensive to live as NYC and, well, it isn't NYC. Don't get me wrong. I love Boston, and it's on the very short list of places in the US I'd like to live. But there are cities around the nation that are just as nice and are much, much cheaper to live in with schools, restaurants, amenities, etc that are equal.

- Garris

Providence, RI

[BostonFaker]

Please!

Boston isn't good because it isn't NYC, yet has the same high prices?

I wouldn't live in Providence because it is just too small compared to Boston.

[Garris]

Please!

Boston isn't good because it isn't NYC, yet has the same high prices?

I wouldn't live in Providence because it is just too small compared to Boston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoa, hold there sparky. I never said Boston isn't good. In fact, I recall saying that it's one of the few places in the nation I'd want to live. I travel there not infrequently, and enjoy it tremendously.

I was only pointing out that for some people like myself not raised in New England, we can look at Boston during our career searches and have difficulty justifying the cost of living when weighing job offers from different places in the nation. You (and Boston officials, companies, etc) ignore this phenomenon at your collective peril. I actually know the person who took the job offer I turned down in Boston, and he's planning on moving out after he's done there, in large part due to cost of living issues.

Regarding Providence, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've heard the same one expressed by people in Boston ad nauseum. We all self select where we live...

- Garris

Providence, RI

[BostonFaker]

There's no doubt Boston costs more to live in than the rest of the country, but so do a lot of places. One of the reasons is for such a high demand to live there.

Boston, and NYC, might have a disadvantage when considering how the job market is becoming so national, and international, but it is small. People from out of the region have a hard time moving here, but most times they don't even want to come here anyway. The rest of the country can be pretty foreign to the NE way of life.

I have nothing against Providence, and am glad it is finally becoming very hospitable as compared to decades ago.

[pvenne]

I wouldn't live in Providence because it is just too small compared to Boston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahaha, this is just an aside, but if providence is too small, you should see portland, maine! youd say it was farmland... B)

[pvenne]

compared to the Mid-Atlantic states and other regions of the nation, New England's schools (including Mass and Boston) have a bad reputation amongst parents and educators.

- Garris

Providence, RI

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just curious, what are the other regions of the U.S. that make NE schools look so bad, and why do you think it is that we have failed to keep up in the academic world?? are you refering to schools around NE cities (major ones) or all NE schools including those in the woods of maine, VT, NH? i always thought new england had a reputation for being far ahead of the rest of the nation in terms of schools, but that must just be in terms of colleges and graduate schools (am i right?)...its sad that rep doesnt apply to the K-12 system, thats the most important if you ask me...otherwise how can kids these days expect to make it to our institutions of higher education???

[Garris]

just curious, what are the other regions of the U.S. that make NE schools look so bad, and why do you think it is that we have failed to keep up in the academic world??

[pvenne]

wow, that is really too bad for new england....a few of the states you mentioned (especially NJ and FLA) are big surprises for me....they dont seem like they would have great schools....texas was another big surprise...but i guess i dont know as much as i thought i did about this sorta thing.

[BostonFaker]

I would like to see a per-capita list, but I also think these lists of HS's are BS.

My mother is a HS math teacher, so I defend teachers to the highest degree.

What sucks about HS's now is how they are so much more college-prep, and so standardized. This makes some kids feel dumb when they should go into the trades, and makes some teachers lose some liberal education.

For example, when the MCAS came out, one of my history teachers had to drop his Egyptian studies, something he loved and was an expert on, because the curriculum would not allow it.

I feel sorry for everyone being taught to pass the MCAS test instead of learning something interesting.

[Garris]

I would like to see a per-capita list, but I also think these lists of HS's are BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure a per capita list would help New England much... In fact, it would rocket places like Maryland, Virginia, Colorado, and the Carolinas much higher than they are already.

I mean, I can't speak for Mass, but I grew up in NY state, and the relative mediocrity of the nearby CT schools compared to those in NJ or NY were the only reason people put up with the higher taxes in the later two states. I don't know how many times I heard things from people like,

"Boy, would I love to move my family to Richfield or Danbury CT where the taxes and costs are lower, but our schools here are so much better than there, so we stay put..."

Here in RI, the relative futility of the public school system is hardly a secret. The Providence Journal harps constantly how RI has some of the highest school spending and lowest test scores in the US. It's not just a money thing... There are only two school systems in RI (in the affluent Providence suburbs of Barrington and East Greenwich) that, to put it as one of my co-workers did, are "New York-class."

Again, I can't speak for Mass. I've heard from teachers in the region that Amhert, MA and some of the Boston suburbs (ex Newton, Sharon) are supposed to be excellent. I know several people working in Providence who have moved to Sharon for just that reason.

- Garris

[TheBostonian]

Yes, you need some per capita info. Comparing CA and MA is silly, because CA is 5 times as populous. MA has, per capita, about half as many schools listed on the top 1000 than CA does.

[BostonFaker]

Another thing, I know for a fact that most schools in GA are crap, except of course for some of the rich schools in some of the Atlanta suburbs.

[pvenne]

Yes, you need some per capita info.  Comparing CA and MA is silly, because CA is 5 times as populous.  MA has, per capita, about half as many schools listed on the top 1000 than CA does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good point. but you are wrong about your population stats. CA is not 5 times the size of MA. It is actually 5 1/2 times as populous. LOL

[BostonFaker]

good point.  but you are wrong about your population stats.  CA is not 5 times the size of MA.  It is actually 5 1/2 times  as populous.  LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, you!

[TheBostonian]

good point.  but you are wrong about your population stats.  CA is not 5 times the size of MA.  It is actually 5 1/2 times  as populous.  LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[tocoto]

Boston's fortunes go up and down in cycles like everywhere else. It is actually on the upswing now with increasing jobs, lots of resiential development in the city and commercial rents going up.

All states have some good and bad schools. MA has the MCAS, a test one must pass to graduate from HS that is supposed to identifiy troubled schools that need help. New England is a big area, bigger than NY or PA so there is a lot of variation.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Seeing all the corporations being bought out is somewhat depressing, but I dont' think they really show a decline, maybe a decline in prestige.

The media tends to harp on the negatives all the time. For example, Manulife bought John Hancock. Boo hoo, a local institution gone... well what about the fact that Manulife has not only increased the jobs, but established their North American headquarters in Boston.

Bank of America has relocated some of their major business lines to Boston. Sure we lost local Fleet but now we gain a bigger bank. No net loss of jobs.

Gillette after being bought out by P&G has announced hundreds of milions dollars of expansion to their World Shaving Headquarters also adding more jobs.

I think I heard that Addidas will have no job cuts and might expand in Canton.

Are these signs of decline? These are all signs of changes.

Even the population stats can be seen in a different way, Massachusetts is losing population, but Rhode Island and New Hampshire gaining population? All that says is that people are moving out further into the suburbs. Metro Boston population figures will probably show a net gain. Is this a sign of decline?

Boston is known for its great higher educational institutions and we should covet it. Schools won't pack up and leave like corporations do.

I think if anything Boston should focus more on Europe, take advantage of our location as the closest major city to Europe by attracting business and headquarters from overseas. This more global focus will only help further diversify the city's economy.

Also, to address the weather issue, I don't think it is as much of a factor than you think. People will move to wherever if the price is right. Yes, Boston needs to solve its housing crunch problems and high cost of living. It also needs to make it cheaper for businesses. However, they should emphasize the positives. Proximity to wonderful beaches, beautiful mountains, and one of the greatest city on earth all in a few hours drive. You can't get that in those cheaper states... I know because I moved from one of them up to Boston... and I am constantly surprised by the varied landscapes and beautiful villages in New England. I will gladly trade the 5 bedroom house on 10 acre lots and 4 SUVs for what I get living in Boston.

[youbetternot]

Seeing all the corporations being bought out is somewhat depressing, but I dont' think they really show a decline, maybe a decline in prestige.

The media tends to harp on the negatives all the time. For example, Manulife bought John Hancock. Boo hoo, a local institution gone... well what about the fact that Manulife has not only increased the jobs, but established their North American headquarters in Boston.

Bank of America has relocated some of their major business lines to Boston. Sure we lost local Fleet but now we gain a bigger bank. No net loss of jobs.

Gillette after being bought out by P&G has announced hundreds of milions dollars of expansion to their World Shaving Headquarters also adding more jobs.

I think I heard that Addidas will have no job cuts and might expand in Canton.

Are these signs of decline? These are all signs of changes.

Even the population stats can be seen in a different way, Massachusetts is losing population, but Rhode Island and New Hampshire gaining population? All that says is that people are moving out further into the suburbs. Metro Boston population figures will probably show a net gain. Is this a sign of decline?

Boston is known for its great higher educational institutions and we should covet it. Schools won't pack up and leave like corporations do.

I think if anything Boston should focus more on Europe, take advantage of our location as the closest major city to Europe by attracting business and headquarters from overseas. This more global focus will only help further diversify the city's economy.

Also, to address the weather issue, I don't think it is as much of a factor than you think. People will move to wherever if the price is right. Yes, Boston needs to solve its housing crunch problems and high cost of living. It also needs to make it cheaper for businesses. However, they should emphasize the positives. Proximity to wonderful beaches, beautiful mountains, and one of the greatest city on earth all in a few hours drive. You can't get that in those cheaper states... I know because I moved from one of them up to Boston... and I am constantly surprised by the varied landscapes and beautiful villages in New England. I will gladly trade the 5 bedroom house on 10 acre lots and 4 SUVs for what I get living in Boston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's basically my feeling. A loss in prestige? Yes. Do we FEEL like Boston is becoming less important? Yes. But in reality, Boston is doing better now than any time in the last 50 years.

[TheBostonian]

My walk through Boston this afternoon reassures me that Boston is alive and well:

Downtown Crossing, despite everyone talking about how it must be improved, was packed. And my friend who recently relocated from DC noted that there is no place like DTC in DC.

Faneuil Hall was packed too. I've been there many times but I've never seen it so full of life. The crowd gathered around the performer in front of Quincy Market was the largest I've seen there. There were musicians and street performers everywhere. I heard many foreign accents, which means not just tourists, but foreign tourists.

There were major crowds outside the Aquarium watching the Sea Lions (that is what they are, right?).

There is growth. 500 Atlantic, Kensington and the new ICA and some of the new South Boston Waterfront buildings are visible from parts of downtown. And there are new buildings: 1 Lincoln, 33 Arch, Millennium Towers. (I didn't go to the Back Bay. I'm only ranting about what was obvious from my walking route. So such things as 111 Huntington are excluded.)

The Paramount theater's exterior looks fresh. Is that Emerson's progress showing already? The lot in front of it looks quite ripe for development. Someone please remind me if there is something slated for that spot.

Chinatown and all its cheesy little discount shops reminded me that Boston is still a few steps from overwhelmingly yuppified.

And there was music in the subway.

Boston was so full of life on this sunny Sunday afternoon. Perhaps Boston's streetlife depends to much on the weather and so many people were out since the weather was pleasant. But this was my impression from the ground. Does it matter from this perspective that John Hancock is now a subsidiary of Manulife and Fleet is replaced by B of A? I don't think so.