Is Target the new Wal-Mart?

MrSmith · August 25, 2005

Of course, Target is only negligibly better than Wal-Mart.. but it's better nonetheless.

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I think the big difference is that if Target was not around Walmart would still be ruthless at squeezing every penny our of suppliers and employees in the name of alwyas having the low price. It is only about price for them and being huge.

If Walmart was not around, however, Target would actually could and would do even more --it is a different philosophy. They are selling more than the lowest price.

Unfortunately they need to compete with Walmart and that means they do have to watch costs too.

MadVlad · August 29, 2005

The problem I have with WalMart is the lack of help. I walk in, there's 300 people in the store, 5 cashiers, and no one to help in the aisles....

planter · August 31, 2005

I'm not real sure if Target is the next Wal-Mart or not, but I wouldn't mind if it were - maybe they should just merge! Target can keep the stores looking attractive and clean and selling nicer clothes and furniture, while Wal-Mart can keep selling their paper products, school supplies, and food for low prices - sounds like a real deal. I don't really think all of that would ever happen and I don't want it to. I do however wish Wal-Mart would design their buildings a bit nicer like Target. Target seems a lot nicer than Wal-Mart, but then again what do you expect, a lot of Targets do half the business Wal-Mart does so they should be cleaner.

designspace · September 3, 2005

Are the big box retailers all the same? Economically speaking, probably. But at least Target has some degree of design conciousness, and it's always a pleasure to see better design offered to the masses. Would I welcome a Target store in Manhattan? Absolutely!! Wal-Mart?? Hell no.

Target is a co-sponsor of an amazing dance party called Warm Up at PS1 in Queens, with global DJs spinning some of the best deep house I've ever heard. Thank you Target!

Snowguy716 · September 3, 2005

In Big Box retailing I think Target does the most outside of delivering the bottom line to its shareholders.

It also sponsers the annual Holidazzle parade in Minneapolis each Christmas.

Also, they sponsor the Target Center, the home of the MInnesota Timberwolves. There is no "Wal-Mart Stadium" out there. But I'm sure there are htings that Wal-mart sponsors that shouldn't be overlooked.

nickmgray · September 4, 2005

Back to the topic of how Wal-mart likes to sqeeze the little people. One of my college profs was a Wal-mart manager for a few years. He was living in some small area and was the only wal-mart. One day the coke supplier came to him and told him that prices on coke products were going up because the area sales were down. (this is a local coke distributor, not corporate). He told the guy to take a hike and that wal-mart would not sell his coke any more. Because of tecnicalities he could not order coke from anyone else, but they did not sell coke for almost two months till the coke guy came back begging and said he would even lower his prices. How's that for evil!

Aporkalypse · September 6, 2005

Not a problem. I'm no angel when it comes to saying things I probably shouldn't.

But hey, why have a line if no one is going to cross it a bit now and then?

On to Target:

While the corporation does have shifty competition policies and low pay for its bottom of the barrel employees, the corporation, for the most part, has held onto its old fashioned "loyal to the company" policies.

For example, they contribute to your pension and 401K plans pretty generously and offer their health plan to you and your dependents for life, given certain conditions. (Minimum amount of service to the company, etc.).

Also, once you retire, it's 10% off for life. No visa card needed (GRRRRR!!!). I swear I'm gonna buy a sticker that says simply "No, I don't have one and I don't want one".. so when they ask me for their "red card" or whatever, I'll just point to the sticker and smile big.

I also have some thoughts on the over-saturation of Wal-Mart in the market and its less than robust sales figures lately.

I believe that the same thing that happened to K-Mart will happen to Wal-Mart for different reasons.

In 1978, K-Mart had 2200 stores nationwide. This is about the time when K-Mart opened a store in my community. They were the king of discount retailing at a time when both Wal-Mart and Target were comparatively "peasants" on the radar screen.

But K-Mart had saturated the market. There was nowhere else to go, really. While they tried expanding their existing stores, new, fresh Target and Wal-Mart stores were opening in traditionally solid K-Mart markets.

By 1990, K-Mart still had 2200 stores and Target had grown from 150 to 400 stores and Wal-Mart about the same.

During the 1990s, poor management decisions at K-Mart and excellent growth in the sector led to a stagnation in K-Mart sales as Wal-Mart ate up their market. Target continued its steady growth throughout the decade and continued to differentiate itself from Wal-Mart by offering more upscale merchandise.. my favorite title for this is "Cheap chic"... or "Tarzhay boutique".

By the early 2000s, K-Mart was ailing and closed 700 stores, nearly 1/3 of its stores. Meanwhile, Wal-Mart was at the same position that K-Mart was in the late 1970s.

Now Wal-Mart is the namesake of small town America like K-Mart was in the 70s. Now, after decades of appealing to lower income shoppers, the Walton dream may be tainted. Rising gas prices are putting a squeeze on low income America while the middle and upper classes are gaining a taste for more upscale merchandise. That leaves Wal-Mart in a place it doesn't want to be.

Target is seizing that opportunity. They are moving into traditional Wal-Mart markets and doing what fresh competition does: skimming the cream.

Much like the smaller discount airlines do by moving into busy markets and offering cheap airfares and leaving the big airlines with the smaller, more expensive markets.. Target is moving in and taking away Wal-Mart's big spending shoppers.

The result has been same store sales increases double that of Wal-Marts for well over a year now.. and the trend continues. While Wal-mart continues to try and build stores in ever smaller, secluded towns to gain more market share, Target is slowly taking bites off of the top.

So, in that sense.. Target is the next Wal-Mart. But with an ever growing presence of Target in the market, will we see an improvement in employee pay in the discount retail sector, or will Target continue the race to the bottom, squeezing out its competition and holding its vendors hostage with unsustainable prices?

Only time will tell.

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Target's approach in the last decade, and it is terribly bright, was to to go upscale and target urban and suburban shoppers, something Wal-Mart has NEVER done well. Every town over 5000 people in many parts of the country (and some even smaller) has a Wal-Mart and in many ways it is the town center - virtually all retail and restaurants in the town sprout up around it and the parking lot will be full any time of the week. Target never has gone after these shoppers and would be foolish to, their merchandise is not applicable in these communities. Wal-Mart, meanwhile, has never been as competitive in cities over 100k as it should be. The Neighborhood Market concept was designed to gain entry into some of these markets and has had limited success at ebst. The bottom line is that in urban environments there are plenty of 24 hr shopping and I'll have to pass 3 Walgreen's or CVSs and 3 Home Depots/Lowe's before I get to a Wal-Mart, which is 15 min from my house despite living in the heart of a metro of 5.5 million. I can get my nailclippers, wall hangers, 12 pack of cokes, and film for my camera quicker and easier without going to Wallyworld.

Target, though, has quite a different approach. Everything about the place is modestly upscale and the clothes are wearable, Wal-Mart's are not. The home furnishings are reasonable and are staples for the young middle class. Groceries are diverse and reasonable but with lots of gourmet options. More importantly, they seem to far outnumber Wal-Marts in major urban areas and are more accessible. Target functions more like a more convenient, discounted department store.

It's rare to find a Target in an isolated community of less than 50k, they've given Wal-Mart that niche. Target did very well by figuing out what Wal-Mart did not do well and by beating them at it. K-Mart tried to compete directly with Wal-Mart and really wasn't able to. Again, though, K-Mart never would venture into communities below 20-25k or so, Wal-Mart thrives in these places.

Target won't venture outside of this niche and Wal-Mart hasn't been effective at regaining any market share in urban environments. The big battle now is in suburbs of 30-100k where it really seems like Wal-Mart and Target face off as direct competitors.

teshadoh · September 13, 2005

Just to give WalMart a little respect - they did donate a huge amount to victims of Katrina...

Now, continue bashing....

MrSmith · September 14, 2005

There was an interesting article recently in the Minneapolis StarTribune about whether Target is too upscale and giving shoppers the impression that it does not have low prices. The most interesting aspect of the article for me was that Target is actually cheaper than WalMart. So not only does it offer a more upscale selection, but it offers better or similar prices on the basics.

The article is located at: StarTribune Target Article

StevenRocks · September 14, 2005

I think that Target's tasteful image is an asset, not a liability. They could do a better job on marketing price to the inhibited shopper, but it's not as much an issue as the article makes it out to be.

Personally, I'd like to see Wal-Mart stand for something other than price occasionally.

orulz · September 16, 2005

FWIW, and this is mostly irrelevant, there's a difference I've noticed between Target and Wal-Mart.

Wal-Marts (particularly supercenters) become such maelstroms of activity and traffic that they really bring out the worst in peoples' driving. Ever tried riding a bicycle to or past a Wal-Mart? A word of advice: don't. It's dangerous.

I've never noticed quite as much traffic at Target, be it a Super Target or just a regular store. When it comes to the impact on traffic and surrounding development patterns, Wal-Mart just stands in a class by itself. The Wal-Mart name carries a lot of weight AND a lot of baggage - and that's a big part of why some people dislike it so much.

Recchia · September 16, 2005

FWIW, and this is mostly irrelevant, there's a difference I've noticed between Target and Wal-Mart.

Wal-Marts (particularly supercenters) become such maelstroms of activity and traffic that they really bring out the worst in peoples' driving. Ever tried riding a bicycle to or past a Wal-Mart? A word of advice: don't. It's dangerous.

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I can agree, Target has nice huge crosswalks and "caution pedestrian" signs out in front of all their stores, even the ones with massive seas of parking. Walmart...just....sucks...when it comes to being anything urban.

blueblackcat · September 16, 2005

We are indeed a Consumerist society when most of the responses in this thread have something or other to do with the aesthetic of a parking lot, isle, or newspaper ad for the retailers. It reflects the fact that we spend a majority of our non-working lives pushing a shopping cart, complicit in our own undoing.

Meanwhile union-busting and sweatshops continue to be corporate policies. Walmart is so cut-throat that when they squeeze a supplier, sometimes the supplier gives them an inferior product in the same box that's sold at a regular price elsewhere. So much for the myth of the brand name. But only very well informed consumers know this. They have chased plenty of factories to third world countries as a result, driving down wages, environmental standards, and production quality along the way. The remarkable thing isn't that Walmart is so crummy and Target is so nice, but that two very different corporations can look so astonishingly similar to the Consumer. We are removed from the factors of production in the same way that so-called nintendo pilots are removed from the gory details of war, only thing is that as consumers we have a much more devestating long term effect.

MrSmith · September 19, 2005

Blueblackcat...you are sooo right!

I sometimes wonder what a society would be like if we only shopped out of necessity or only for the things we needed (instead of what we think we need).

This is a strange period in time --we are so rich and have so much free time compared to past societies. What would we do if we did not shop? help the poor? No, the rich have never really done that.

In the past the rich were patrons of the arts and to the sciences -- I guess we are patrons of the arts too --but instead of Michelangelo and his statue of David, we have Michael Graves and his Target Toaster. Unfortunately, some poor slob makes it for about $1 a day but it is better then walmart where the toaster is ugly and the worker makes 25 cents a day.

monsoon · September 21, 2005

I'll repost this again since many of you are new enough to have missed it the first time I posted this.

Interestingly enough there is a SuperTarget on the other side of the street and from this vantage it looks just like the Walmart.

There is no difference in these places and are a symptom of our society's general decline towards becoming irrelevant.

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I saw this sight this weekend and thought that it deserved a photo. This is

1/2 of a Super Walmart. I could not get it all into the shot from that hill.

6000 years of recorded human history has resulted in this. Not sure

what words that would apply but maybe you can provide your own.

Location - Bleedswell, NC (but could be Anyplace, USA)

Time - 10 minutes into the future

Recchia · September 21, 2005

Ugh, its sickening.... Soooooo many cars.....God I can't wait to move to graduate and live in the middle of a city, where such things aren't allowed...or Europe..

monsoon · September 21, 2005

Walmart is now marching across Europe too.

Recchia · September 21, 2005

I just don't understand why in the hell they can't build these stores in downtown shopping districts where people can walk to them or take transit to them. Why do they always have to be on the fringes with seas of parking, instead of right in the city with a parking deck behind it and with the storefront right up to the sidewalk. Of course I can answer this question out of a planning 101 textbook, land is cheaper and more readily available on the fringes blah blah... I'm sick of hearing that though...

cmj2k5 · September 21, 2005

I wish death upon wal-mart(and other businesses along the same line) everytime I see one.

Everytime someone buys something there ther're sending they're cash right out of the city, and in to the pocket of overpaid CEOs.

Just try to think how much more wealthy a city of 10,000-100,000 would be without coorporate busineses lining the fringe of their city.

Less traffic

Less polution.. because of more walking...

which leads to less weight...

even more because you have private businesses making real food, not genectically altered food saturated with fat... that you wouldn't buy from your car... and I'll stop now...

Death to sprawl mart!

Recchia · September 22, 2005

Just try to think how much more wealthy a city of 10,000-100,000 would be without coorporate busineses lining the fringe of their city.
Less traffic

Less polution.. because of more walking...

which leads to less weight...

even more because you have private businesses making real food, not genectically altered food saturated with fat... that you wouldn't buy from your car... and I'll stop now...

Death to sprawl mart!

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No, no, keep going, I like what I'm hearing. I like how your brought up the whole weight issue, cause its so overlooked yet so true. Sprawl makes you FAT and LAZY, oh but wait, thats the American dream right, to be a lazy car driving fatty....

cmj2k5 · September 22, 2005

Gas prices are going to hurt this stuff big time in the long run if they don't find an alternative.

DigitalSky · September 25, 2005

Question- how are SuperTarget's grocery prices compared to Super Wal-Mart's?

cmj2k5 · September 25, 2005

Thats a good question... I know i've heard my sister say that wal marts are lower than hy-vee's.

MrSmith · September 28, 2005

It really isn't fair to blame big box retail for the sea of parking lots in the suburbs. It is the zoning codes and the people in the suburbs who desire this sort of development. This is the type of development they encourage.

In Minneapolis we have a downtown target with undergorund parking and there is no way in hell the city was going to let them build a traditional big box. Likewise we are getting 3 downtown grocery stores and all of them are being built with an urban design.