Growth & Future of Providence

[Jenkins]

It will always be very difficult for liberal-oriented states (heavy on social services and wealth redistribution) to compete on a tax-bases with conservative or libertarian states, who, for better or worse, do not provide much assistance to their lower income residents.

Strong social services does not have to equal high taxes. For example, "Tax-achusetts" actually now has a tax burden that is about 27th in the country, and yet still has many programs and benefits available to help the needy. Massachusetts, back in the 70's and early 80's, had a tax burden that was probably in the top 5 nationwide. However, there was a strong political movement, driven in part by Citizens for Limited Taxation (and their strong leader Barbara Andersen) who advocated for reasonable taxes. Ultimately this was done through Proposition 2 1/2 , which limited increases on property tax rates to just 2 1/2 percent a year. Believe me, there was howling in the streets over what this supposedly draconian meaure would do to the school systems and poor. Well, 25 years later what was the result? Massachusetts now has arguably the best schools in the country. And their social service net is still one of the most robust in the country. How did they do this while lowering taxes? Making government efficient, responsive, open, and representative of all people. The main problem in RI isn't that it desires to have a strong social service safety net and therefore is destined to have high taxes. The problem is the horrible inefficencies in government, the nepotism, the lack of an organized plan for growth, and the domination of most any political decision by various special interest unions.

[Garris]

Jenkins, I too was going to give the example of MA as a state that lowered taxes. MA's business climate was getting hammered and the tax reforms there helped to stabilize the bleeding (well, until the housing price run-up of late which has worsened things for them again).

The main problem in RI isn't that it desires to have a strong social service safety net and therefore is destined to have high taxes. The problem is the horrible inefficencies in government, the nepotism, the lack of an organized plan for growth, and the domination of most any political decision by various special interest unions.

I can tell you that as someone who takes care of a mentally retarded sibling that RI's social service network and offerings are certainly no more robust than anywhere else I've lived, including ultra-low tax Minnesota.

Indeed, it does appear that RI is horrendously inefficient and the unions and compensations way out of control compared to some other states.

I don't think anyone is advocating turning us into Georgia tax-wise overnight, but at least bringing us in line with our immediate neighbors is sensible.

- Garris

[runawayjim]

isn't the maximum number of years one can collect welfare higher here than in most surrounding states by a few years? i don't see how cutting back on that can hurt... grandfather in the people who are currently collecting until their time is up and make all new applicants follow a similar timeframe that our neighboring states have. there are jobs in RI, just not the most desirable ones. but if you're on welfare, you can't really afford to be picky to begin with. that would be a good start to cutting back social services without really making us look bad compared to our neighbors (also liberal).

i don't see the answer being turning us into a midwestern or southern conservative state when it comes to social services. that would't work here. and those states have their own problems as well.

of course the first thing we need to work on is our government and the unions... luckily, at least in providence, cicilline has pushed away some of the corruption.

[JimmyGreaves]

I just read a news brief that Garrison Confections is relocating its chocolate making operations from Providence to Central Falls (I assume its retail location will remain on Hope Street). This being an election year, it got me thinking about what the net job creation and net new business starts for the city has been over the course of Cicilline's term. Does anyone know where one can go to look up this information, and is there a statistic akin to GDP that is tracked for the city of Providence that one can also reference?

[JimmyGreaves]

I read in the Projo today that Providence City Council voted to place a voter initiative on the ballot that would impose a mayoral term limit of two four year terms. This is partially based on the recommendations of a Charter Review Commission which convened in 2002. Interesting was the fact that council did not place another initiative on the ballot per the commission's recommendation that would have limited city councilors to three terms. Some questions I had are as follows:

Why wasn't this seemingly important issue not given more media coverage?

What is your opinion regarding this issue?

If the mayoral term limit is approved by the voters and Cicilline cannot seek reelection beyond 2010, how does that affect the Providence development environment, assuming that there is positive momentum in his second term and he would otherwise seek re-election?

http://www.projo.com/metro/content/projo_2...n2.16e0416.html

[runawayjim]

I read in the Projo today that Providence City Council voted to place a voter initiative on the ballot that would impose a mayoral term limit of two four year terms. This is partially based on the recommendations of a Charter Review Commission which convened in 2002. Interesting was the fact that council did not place another initiative on the ballot per the commission's recommendation that would have limited city councilors to three terms. Some questions I had are as follows:

Why wasn't this seemingly important issue not given more media coverage?

What is your opinion regarding this issue?

If the mayoral term limit is approved by the voters and Cicilline cannot seek reelection beyond 2010, how does that affect the Providence development environment, assuming that there is positive momentum in his second term and he would otherwise seek re-election?

http://www.projo.com/metro/content/projo_2...n2.16e0416.html

i'd like to see cicilline stay longer if possible, but change is also always good. sometimes long term mayors can be detrimental for the city even if they have done much good in the past.

[JimmyGreaves]

i'd like to see cicilline stay longer if possible, but change is also always good. sometimes long term mayors can be detrimental for the city even if they have done much good in the past.

And, with all due respect, the same can be said about the legislative branch.

Edit...A good compromise would be term limits. However, after a period of time, they are allowed to seek the office they held again.

[Cotuit]

i'd like to see cicilline stay longer if possible, but change is also always good. sometimes long term mayors can be detrimental for the city even if they have done much good in the past.

I'm generally against term limits in theory, we already have term limitis, its called elections. However, in practice, the electoral term limit doesn't work very well as the incumbent always has a huge advantage, and recent history shows that Providence is not very good at turning out bad politicians. I would only favour term limits on the mayors office if it also included term limits on the city council.

Boston is a prime example of where term limits would help in bringing new blood into a generally favourable mayorship. Menino is wildly popular and off the top of my head I can't really say anything bad about him, but he's on his fourth or fifth term now isn't he (Flynn was Mayor when I moved to Boston in 1992, then it's been Menino ever since)? And I think its undeniable at this point that Boston is struggling. If there were term limits in Boston Menino, who isn't a bad mayor, would have had to step aside to allow for some fresh ideas to come into city hall. As it is now, with his popularity, no one qualified and no one who has a real chance at defeating him will run, so he maintains his power.

As for Cicilline, seeing as he hasn't actually been elected to his second term, talk of his third is a bit premature, at this point I wouldn't mind him running for a third, but ask me again in 4 years. Of course if Carceiri wins in November, I'd be happy to see Cicciline run for Governor in 2010.

[eltron]

And I think its undeniable at this point that Boston is struggling.

Just curious as to why its undeniable Boston is struggling...?

[Cotuit]

Just curious as to why its undeniable Boston is struggling...?

Crime rates up, the middle class can't afford to live in the city, there's some indication that the economy is suffering (though not being an economist, I can't speak to that, its at least slowing), the Big Dig happened mostly under Menino's watch (not that I think he's accountable, but it's his city, he should have done more to hold the people who are/were accountable to the fire), the T is overburdened (state agency, but as mayor its up to him to lobby the state to fix/fund the T)... It's not falling apart, but it's not the same place it was in the late 90s. There's some mistakes that I'd like to see Providence learn from, especially around issues of affordability.

Also, Menino can, and has, tried to explain away the rise in the crime rate by putting the blame on the loss of federal funding which has been diverted to "Homeland Security" (I put that in quotes for a reason), but perhaps someone with a fresh outlook could have responded to the challenges that that loss of funding produced, perhaps not.

[Garris]

I would only favour term limits on the mayors office if it also included term limits on the city council.

Absolutely. Term limits would need to be on both.

NYC is a good example to look at, as term limits on the Mayor's office (I'm not sure about the other branches) seem to have worked well there.

Just curious as to why its undeniable Boston is struggling...?

I think Cotuit explained it well. WBUR just recently did a mini-expose on this, not saying that Boston is struggling so much that it seems to be treading water, with some troublesome signs:

- Sky high costs

- Loss via mergers, etc of high profile local companies

- Increasing crime

- Flat economy, with no obvious growth industry on the horizon (and the ones that previously powered Boston like biotech and high tech are moving to other, lower cost areas)

That may be one downside of an imperial mayoralship is that there is little new blood to look at things from different perspectives and inject new ideas.

- Garris

[jencoleslaw]

i'd be good with term limits on both co-equal branches of government as well as a smaller council. i think 15 feifdoms is at least 6 too many.

[yossarian]

As to the term limits debate, the arguments in favor of the initiative as proposed were as follows (not saying I agree with them - just conveying info):

Almost all cheif executives are subject to a term limit, typically two. This is true at the federal level as well as the state level. The rationale for term limiting the cheif executive is that the power he or she wields and the degree to which that power increases after repeated electoral wins makes it, as practical matter, impossible to unseat the executive barring say... a criminal conviction. There is an argument that this problem is particularly acute in municipal government given the patronage systems/machine politics which exist in many cities.

In contrast Rhode Island, along with many states, does not term limit legislators. Therefore, we should not term limit the council. The rationale for not term limiting legislators is that the nature of their office does not permit the same accumulation of power that prevents or at least makes unlikely their defeat through elections. In addition, term limits would result in the loss of institutional knowledge.

As to Cicilline specifically 1) it is not clear that he would be barred from running in 2010/ taking office in 2011, 2) unless Fogarty wins I don't think Cicilline will be running for mayor in 2010.

[yossarian]

i'd be good with term limits on both co-equal branches of government as well as a smaller council. i think 15 feifdoms is at least 6 too many.

Charter Review Commission did propose amending the Charter to reduce the number of wards and to create 5 at large seats. This was supported heavily by the Prov. Foundation, but was not adopted by the council.

[runawayjim]

Charter Review Commission did propose amending the Charter to reduce the number of wards and to create 5 at large seats. This was supported heavily by the Prov. Foundation, but was not adopted by the council.

why am i not surprised that the council didn't go for reducing their own numbers?

[Cotuit]

Charter Review Commission did propose amending the Charter to reduce the number of wards and to create 5 at large seats. This was supported heavily by the Prov. Foundation, but was not adopted by the council.

Someone who spoke at Providence Tomorrow (obviously not a city councilor) endoresed this idea to rousing applause.

[yossarian]

why am i not surprised that the council didn't go for reducing their own numbers?

The arguments on that front were:

Small wards allow for easy access to government by citizens and in turn allow councilmembers to truly know their wards.

Campaigning for an at large seat would be expensive. Only those with big fundraising operations could run city wide, keeping out the average joe council person. Segal indicated support if coupled with a public financing mechanism. Others opposed creating in essence a group of five wannabe mayors.

[Cotuit]

I'm generally against term limits in theory, we already have term limitis, its called elections.

"I think we have good term limits. They are called elections," he (Mayor Cicciline) said.

I swear, I didn't actually read the article before I posted that, it's just a matter of great minds thinking alike.

[Cotuit]

Others opposed creating in essence a group of five wannabe mayors.

The one wannabe mayor from Ward 13 is enough I suppose.

The Councilman from Ward 13 knows that he needs the corner office to be empty in order for him to be able to move in (I assume he's not counting on Fogarty losing in November).

[Recchia]

Cotuit what's your background, you should run for mayor.

[runawayjim]

The one wannabe mayor from Ward 13 is enough I suppose.

The Councilman from Ward 13 knows that he needs the corner office to be empty in order for him to be able to move in (I assume he's not counting on Fogarty losing in November).

that wouldn't happen to be lombardi, would it?

[Cotuit]

Cotuit what's your background, you should run for mayor.

People have to stop telling me to run for office, me no want to.

that wouldn't happen to be lombardi, would it?

Maybe if he were a better public speaker he wouldn't have to chase the current mayor out of office.

[runawayjim]

People have to stop telling me to run for office, me no want to.

it's can't be that bad... but definitely not something i'd do, that's for sure.

Maybe if he were a better public speaker he wouldn't have to chase the current mayor out of office.

you mean reading off a sheet of paper isn't public speaking?

[yossarian]

People have to stop telling me to run for office, me no want to.

Maybe if he were a better public speaker he wouldn't have to chase the current mayor out of office.

Putting your feelings toward your councilman and your assumptions as to his ambitions aside, he is not a member of the committee that amended the terms limits proposal and voted to send it to the full council. Nor was he an active participant in the debate.

[Cotuit]

Putting your feelings toward your councilman and your assumptions as to his ambitions aside, he is not a member of the committee that amended the terms limits proposal and voted to send it to the full council. Nor was he an active participant in the debate.

I don't believe that he has to be a member or active participant in the process to make his feelings and desires on the issue known and considered. But of course I'm just speculating.

But, if having a 15 member council is supposed to put the coucilors closer to their constituents, I'm not seeing it. I've met the mayor many more times than I've even seen my councilor, and the mayor usually remembers me when we meet (I don't know how, but he does).