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New Saks Fifth Avenue in former Montaldo's?


nyxmike

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Too bad the '70's through the '90's killed off department stores in most downtowns across America....

It was a different time. Downtown was considered a crowded, dangerous place with no free parking. That was a big deal back in the day.

Also just curious about people's thoughts about why department stores haven't moved back into downtown areas.

Old perceptions die hard, even in fairly progressive cities like Charlotte. Most retailers don't thnk they'd do enough business to make it worth their while.

For what it is worth I still think Parisian's is a bit more upscale than Belk's. I hope I do not step on any toes with that comment.

You mean the toes of the Ferragamo shoes I bought at Belk SouthPark? No offence taken :lol:

Ivey's may have stuck around a few more years --- if it weren't for the Dillard's buyout

So true.
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Yes, Ivey's could have stuck around for a few more years, but the executive board members were aging, and the "next generation" was too young to step in place (yes it eventually became a public company, but was still run by the family).

Ivey's sold out to marshal field actually.....then dillards came in. Technically Ivey's was around till '95 when "Ivey properties" (i.e. the land southpark was built on) was sold to the Belk family. Since then, the Belk family has owned all of the land that southpark was built on in the 70's (originally it was 50:50 between Ivey's and Belk's). Just a tidbit

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Wouldn't it be ironic if Ivey's had became Marshall Fields instead.. which are now indefinately becoming Macy's.
Actually, a lot of the architectural cues that Ivey's SouthPark had were present in Marshall Field's on State Street in Chicago when I visted it 10 years ago.

They were moving closer together when they were under BATUS Retail (which bought Field's and Ivey's in 1982) but it's unlikely they would have changed the name to Field's if they were still around. For one thing, Frederick & Nelson (Seattle) had a longer history under Marshall Field's ownership and they never changed its name. They did however sell it off under BATUS.

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For what it is worth I still think Parisian's is a bit more upscale than Belk's. I hope I do not step on any toes with that comment.

;)

A2

You are very accurate and I completely agree. The SP Belk is definitely not a typical Belk, although I think most Belk stores are OK; they just aren't high-end.

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Small. It is in the Harbert Plaza. It is a nice store, but much like the boutique's in Charlotte's Overstreet mall it is hidden away from street activty.

For what it is worth I still think Parisian's is a bit more upscale than Belk's. I hope I do not step on any toes with that comment.

;)

A2

It's not that hidden away. The main enterance to the store is actually on the street.

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You are very accurate and I completely agree. The SP Belk is definitely not a typical Belk, although I think most Belk stores are OK; they just aren't high-end.
Um, how about Belk Hanes Mall? Crabtree Valley? Haywood Mall? The Avenues? They're all more upscale than Parisian.
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Um, how about Belk Hanes Mall? Crabtree Valley? Haywood Mall? The Avenues? They're all more upscale than Parisian.

I agree with you for those stores. They are probably Belk's most high-end stores, in addition to SouthPark, and probably better than Parisian on average (especially the stores that Parisian opened in small towns in AL before it became a more national chain, such as the tiny one in Dothan, AL) but I would still give Parisian the edge, on average, just because Parisian doesn't have low-end stuff scattered among the higher-end stuff that Belk has.

Parisian is all moderate to sort of upscale, while Belk is all over the place; Belk has $9.99 track pants and the like in addition to nicer things. Parisian has Tommy Bahama, Kenneth Cole, Silverstone, Taylor Byrd, Hart Schaffner & Marx, Alex Cannon, BCBG, etc. throughout (very similar to Lord & Taylor), and not much that's lower than those brands (apart from the Parisian in-house brand) (although not much higher, either); Belk sometimes has those brands, depending on the store, but lots that's lower-end (Izod, etc.) than those (although admittedly Belk does have Ferragamo shoes and the like at SouthPark).

I went to the Haywood Belk and Macy's a few weeks ago and was really disappointed- maybe the women's selection is better, but Belk there didn't seem to have better-quality merchandise for guys.

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it seems as if only the flagship stores, Crabtree and SP, are the more upscale. Why do they sell more highend items, while other Belks like at Hanes mall, Four Seasons, and Triangle Town Center dont? It seems to me that if Belk is trying to lure two different markets, upscale and middle-class, why would they leave out major metro areas for only the middle-class items. Its not like the triad has a Nordstroms or anything of that magnitude.

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It's not that hidden away. The main enterance to the store is actually on the street.

Yes, but there is little to no strret activity at the store. My mother works at the Land Title building across the street and the only people who shop there are those who know about it. (basically downtown workers) All others from B'ham go the the Galleria or 280 to shop. The Parisians Downtown is not a destination store and has a VERY limited selection. I know there is an entrance, but it is not as visible as one would think.

Plus when I am back home I have no problem with shopping Brookwood mall. Birmingham has a lot of great shopping, just not downtown. (but don't feel bad Charlotte is still lacking too, along with many other cities in the 1-3M category)

A2

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I agree with you for those stores. They are probably Belk's most high-end stores, in addition to SouthPark, and probably better than Parisian on average (especially the stores that Parisian opened in small towns in AL before it became a more national chain, such as the tiny one in Dothan, AL) but I would still give Parisian the edge, on average, just because Parisian doesn't have low-end stuff scattered among the higher-end stuff that Belk has.

Parisian is all moderate to sort of upscale, while Belk is all over the place; Belk has $9.99 track pants and the like in addition to nicer things. Parisian has Tommy Bahama, Kenneth Cole, Silverstone, Taylor Byrd, Hart Schaffner & Marx, Alex Cannon, BCBG, etc. throughout (very similar to Lord & Taylor), and not much that's lower than those brands (apart from the Parisian in-house brand) (although not much higher, either); Belk sometimes has those brands, depending on the store, but lots that's lower-end (Izod, etc.) than those (although admittedly Belk does have Ferragamo shoes and the like at SouthPark).

I went to the Haywood Belk and Macy's a few weeks ago and was really disappointed- maybe the women's selection is better, but Belk there didn't seem to have better-quality merchandise for guys.

This is a two-parter. For one thing, Belk stores tend to favor better ladies apparel rather than menswear. The other thing is that most of the larger Belk stores have tried better menswear brands at times and pulled back because they couldn't sell enough of it at full price.

More on part one: Go up to Level 3 at Belk SouthPark, or Level 2 at Hudson Belk Crabtree Valley. Along with them more mundame women's brands, you'll see stuff like St. John, Theory, Sigrid Olsen, Exclusively Misook, Lacoste and the like. Along with the cosmetics and shoe departments, this is the profit center of the store. Belk's core shopper is into ladies' "bridge" sportswear and it's very well represented, even at the smaller stores. Belk's typical male customer is not as label-concious and tends to spend less, so when you go back down the escalator to the men's store, the presentation starts leaning more towards suits, budget (or popular label) sportswear and lots of golfwear. This is what men tend to buy at Belk (and what their wives and girlfriends buy them), even at SouthPark and Crabtree.

More on part two: I've spent a lot of time in Belk stores in the past twenty years and I can tell you with great certainty that if a brand is even slightly hot, Belk has tried it, and at every store thay can try it at. Belk SouthPark once carried Corelioni, Ferragamo, North 44, Bobby Jones, Joseph Abboud, and other high-line men's sportswear brands. Hudson Belk Crabtree Valley and the like have tried them as well.

They don't sell. Not at full price to Belk shoppers. It's not for lack of promotion or lack of trying. it's just not a sucessful enterprise for them, and they can turn the same space into cosmetics and women's apparel and make loads more money and still satisfy the needs of their core shopper.

it seems as if only the flagship stores, Crabtree and SP, are the more upscale. Why do they sell more highend items, while other Belks like at Hanes mall, Four Seasons, and Triangle Town Center dont? It seems to me that if Belk is trying to lure two different markets, upscale and middle-class, why would they leave out major metro areas for only the middle-class items. Its not like the triad has a Nordstroms or anything of that magnitude.
It's like I was telling mallguy. They try, but Belk can't sell high-end menswear (among other categories) in round enough numbers to justify the square footage in most of their stores. SouthPark and Crabtree Valley have excellent demographics as well, and are known regionally as fashion destinations, so they are the exceptions to the rules.

Still, this is no reason to look down on Belk. Comparatively, if you go down the mall to Hecht's or Dillard's, those stores do a worse job on just about every category. The rare exception is Dillard's Four Seasons, which is far and away a better store than Belk Four Seasons.

_______

Here's another thought: the consolidation that Belk did corporately in 1998 did wonders for accounting, but hurt the local stores.

Previously, the stores bought core items from Belk Stores Services and each regional store group handled the bulk of its own buying and distribution. Since the change, all the buying is done from Charlotte and distribution is done from Blythewood, SC.

While it is certainly more effiicient to centralize these functions, it removed hundreds of years of collective buying experice from Belk and equalized the presentation at Belk stores, which helped bring the worst stores up to speed, but downscaled many of the best stores. It has hurt them a lot, especially when the economy dipped and the shoppers turned away, but they seem to be recovering somewhat.

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StevenRocks, with the above post, I think you win the award of the Most Knowledgeable Contributor to urbanplanet; I have shopped at Belk stores since I was born, and my grandparents and parents are good friends with some of the Belk family members, but I never knew all of that. Thanks.

Curious as to why Belk hasn't split its regular department stores into different categories with different nameplates the way other chains did (e.g., May had Lord & Taylor for upscale areas, generally, and Hecht's, etc. for other areas; Saks had Parisian for upscale areas and Proffitt's, etc. for other areas). Belk is completely inconsistent in its store formats, sizes, markets and merchandise selections. Thus when I head to a mall that has an upscale department store and a Belk, I usually just head straight for the other store, since my image of Belk is based on the downscale ones such as the sad little one at Lewis Plaza in Greenville, SC that closed and the one in Rock Hill, even though some Belk stores are nicer. Wouldn't a consistent brand image help, or would the duplicity in marketing, etc. outweigh that?

I remember Belk had some outlets and a dumpy store called the Leader in downtown Spartanburg, SC, but those weren't regular department stores.

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StevenRocks, with the above post, I think you win the award of the Most Knowledgeable Contributor to urbanplanet; I have shopped at Belk stores since I was born, and my grandparents and parents are good friends with some of the Belk family members, but I never knew all of that. Thanks.

Curious as to why Belk hasn't split its regular department stores into different categories with different nameplates the way other chains did (e.g., May had Lord & Taylor for upscale areas, generally, and Hecht's, etc. for other areas; Saks had Parisian for upscale areas and Proffitt's, etc. for other areas). Belk is completely inconsistent in its store formats, sizes, markets and merchandise selections. Thus when I head to a mall that has an upscale department store and a Belk, I usually just head straight for the other store, since my image of Belk is based on the downscale ones such as the sad little one at Lewis Plaza in Greenville, SC that closed and the one in Rock Hill, even though some Belk stores are nicer. Wouldn't a consistent brand image help, or would the duplicity in marketing, etc. outweigh that?

I remember Belk had some outlets and a dumpy store called the Leader in downtown Spartanburg, SC, but those weren't regular department stores.

I try, mallguy :D

The reason that Belk never segmented its stores was partially because of the corporate structure, but has a lot to do with unified marketing. Belk is a repected retail name with a loyal following. Calling one set of stores one thing and another something else dilutes the value of the brand. Even though many of the stores are small and dumpy, they carry much of the same basic merchadise that the larger ones do.

And while you and a lot of people may see them as downscale, often times they were considered the aspirational store in town. I know people that visibly wept when our local Leggett left town in 1993, even though it was probably as dumpy as the Belk you remember form Lewis Plaza. Even though that old Leggett was pretty much irrelevant by today's standards, we shopped there with pride. I moved up the ranks to nicer Belks as I could get around to them.

Today I primarily shop at Belk SouthPark, but I wouldn't have probably if I never got started on the small town store back in the day, which was considered the nicest store in town. Keep in mind, at the time my town had Macks (not even a Maxway!) and Pope's and an old-arse store called N. Morris that's barely worth mentioning, but I digress. :lol:

When you think about it, JCPenney is structured like Belk. While there are more than a few modern JCPenney stores with all the trimmings, they still maintain a base of smalltown stores that seem almost pointless, but are extremely profitable and popular.

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  • 4 months later...

Well, it looks like this is probably a dead deal. BofA is no longer going to buy the former Montaldo's/Current MMofC&D. They are instead going to just give $8.6M towards the Arts Package......does this mean the MMofC&D is staying, or does this give the city the Mint the option to sell it to someone else?

Also, in today's observer there is an article about Saks, which quoted a spokesman for Saks saying they are not currently interested in Charlotte....not that I always believe PR people, but I think we are still at least 2 years away from having a Saks announcement.

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Yeah, Saks isn't doing so well these days. While they like to project themselves as something akin to Neiman Marcus I think they have sundered themselves in this market by putting their name on stores in places like Concord Mills. I realize this is an outlet store, but the fact they are playing in this market too, and using their name no less, really tarnishes their image.

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I agree on the Saks image being hurt by "Off 5th".

I've been really intrigued by what will happen to that building if BofA doesn't buy it.

I'm really thinking the most reasonable notion is that Mint Museum of Craft and Design will remain there, and the new Mint will be just Mint Museum of Art.

Although a Saks there would have been nice, I think I'm glad that North Tryon would keep some arts. It was starting to look bad with Spirit Square being changed, and then MMoC&D leaving.

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Yeah, Saks isn't doing so well these days. While they like to project themselves as something akin to Neiman Marcus I think they have sundered themselves in this market by putting their name on stores in places like Concord Mills. I realize this is an outlet store, but the fact they are playing in this market too, and using their name no less, really tarnishes their image.

While I do agree with you, Neiman Marcus has "Neiman Marcus Last Call" outlet stores and Nordstrom has "Nordstrom Rack." The only difference is that Neiman doesn't have as many stores such as "Off 5th" does and they strategically place in cetain area in the US and not in every new Mills Corporation mega-mall.

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Saks sounds like it's on its way back from the article, and somehow I think Charlotte could stll eventually pull one off. When and where is the question. My prediction's Uptown in about three years as part of a larger project.

I agree with the poster who said not to trust PR people. I usally look for firm comittments or leases signed when I research stories, regardless of what they say. It's safer to report news that's based on fact than rumor.

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Of course when Saks starts to think about Charlotte again NM could always add on that 3rd floor and try to scare it off again.

IMHO I think if Neimans can make it in Charlotte, the flood gates for retailers will open...

There's that empty lot on South Tryon (a tower was supposed to built there) that could easily support a collection of shops, restaurants, housing, office... Considering the rapidly changing demographics of Charlotte - and it's inner core especially - Saks or any number of other higher retailers would be blind not to invest in our core.

Any news about IKEA?

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