Florida or North Carolina?

[A2]

Here is a nice article on why thoses cities listed might be high on the list. Suburbia is qouted as being more dangerous than downtowns.

Dangerous 'Burbs

It's probably no surprise to readers of this newsletter, but now it's official: those suburbs are hazardous to your health. People who live in the outer suburbs run a greater combined risk of being killed, either by a stranger or in a car crash, than those in center cities and inner suburbs. A study by urban and environmental planning professor William Lucy at the University of Virginia examined homicide and traffic fatality rates in eight metropolitan areas for the period 1997-2000. The study invalidates the common belief that low-density outer suburbs are safer places to live and raise children than cities and inner suburbs. In fact, outer suburbs tend to be the most dangerous parts of metropolitan areas. Lucy assessed the life-threatening dangers people face when they leave home.

While many of the central cities had higher rates of homicides by strangers than suburban counties, the relatively low homicide rates in outer suburbs were overwhelmed by much higher rates of traffic fatalities. "I think the basic reason [outer suburbs are more dangerous] is that the people who live farther out are driving farther, they are going faster and they are driving on roads that are more dangerous," said Lucy.

Cited source:

"Study says commuters more at risk than urbanites"

Nando Times

29 April 2002

When most people talk about death at the hands of a stranger, they aren't thinking of death at the hands of a stranger driving a car. He's the most dangerous stranger of all.

Here is the Link

http://www.carfree.com/cft/i026.html

A2

[monsoon]

While Florida's high speed rail plans have been effectively killed by Jeb Bush, NC & Virgina continue on with their plans to connect Charlotte to Washington DC via high speed rail. It is the only highspeed rail project funded for Tier 2 studies and will mostly likely begin to start carring passengers in 2010.

This is based in part on the fact that NC Railroad already runs passenger trains down this route and is making a profit doing so.

Everyday the Piedmont and Carolinean take passengers between Charlotte and Raleigh with stops at all of the intervening cities and the Carolinean continues on to DC, Baltimore and NYC. Unlike Fla, it is proven system already carrying passengers for more than 10 years. The HSPR aspect of it will be an improvement to the line.

The NCDOT is also in a capital upgrade process to build new inner rail stations in all the major cities in NC which will connect to the local mass transit systems. It is very forward thinking and as I said earlier, light years ahead of Fla.

[monsoon]

There again what about the whole NYC deal. They are not even listed, yet they have as many pedestrians in their city than all of those cities listed above times five.

A2

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NYC isn't as dangerous to pedestrians as Orlando Florida. That is why it is not on the most dangerous list.

[A2]

While Florida's high speed rail plans have been effectively killed by Jeb Bush, NC & Virgina continue on with their plans to connect Charlotte to Washington DC via high speed rail.  It is the only highspeed rail project funded for Tier 2 studies and will mostly likely begin to start carring passengers in 2010. 

This is based in part on the fact that NC Railroad already runs passenger trains down this route and is making a profit doing so. 

Everyday the Piedmont and Carolinean take passengers between Charlotte and Raleigh with stops at all of the intervening cities and the Carolinean continues on to DC, Baltimore and NYC.  Unlike Fla, it is proven system already carrying passengers for more than 10 years.  The HSPR aspect of it will be an improvement to the line. 

The NCDOT is also in a capital upgrade process to build new inner rail stations in all the major cities in NC which will connect to the local mass transit systems.  It is very forward thinking and as I said earlier, light years ahead of Fla.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MB will this be a part of the Crescent?

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...d=1081256321858

Here is the route from New Orleans to NYC. It runs through NO,Birmingham, Atlanta, Charlotte, Greensboro (mid point), DC, Baltimore, Philly and NYC.

A2

[Lady Celeste]

While Florida's high speed rail plans have been effectively killed by Jeb Bush, NC & Virgina continue on with their plans to connect Charlotte to Washington DC via high speed rail.  It is the only highspeed rail project funded for Tier 2 studies and will mostly likely begin to start carring passengers in 2010. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh my word! Okay, I am about to call Governor Predue's office and advise him of this. What a great thing it would be to have a stop in Greenville/Spartanburg and then on to Atlanta. That would be great.

I wonder what would be the price of a ride from Charlotte to DC and how does that correlate with the fare from same cities on Amtrak? I have never been on Amtrak but what would be so hard for them to run commuter lines between Charlotte and Atlanta or Charlotte and DC? Why is it taking an act of congress to get a regionwide transit system going?

The upper deep south area needs a transit line similar to the BosWash line.

[Lady Celeste]

A2 are you reading my mind?

[monsoon]

This is the service as currently planned. Note there is already extensive passenger train service on this route via both Amtrak and the North Caroliana Railroad. The red portion denotes the HSPR route. It will terminate at the new multimodal train station being built in downtown Charlotte which will also connect to the city's Light rail and communter rail systems now under construction. There is nothing in Fla. like this except ink on paper.

As I mentioned earlier the NC Railroad is already operating passenger trains at a profit. Here are the details on the Piedmont. A very popular train that runs between Raleigh and Charlotte everyday.

[A2]

A2 are you reading my mind?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is all ESP LC !

A2

[bobliocatt]

Density and Urbanity are two different things.  First of all there isn't much difference in 2500 people/sq mile vs 1800 people/sq mile.  700 spread over an area of a square mile doesn't make that much difference in how urban an area is.

Its just as big as a difference between 4500 and 3800. Is there anyone who believes that the density levels of Miami (4400) and Phoenix (3600) are similar.

Other measures matter.  Is a city building a mass transit system. Does a city have funding in place for present and future mass transit.  Does the state goverment support intercity rail.  These determine the real urbanity of an area. 

But another measure is how auto dependant has become, is the city walkable.  In Mean Streets 2004. Florida's cities are the worst in the nation.

Florida's contains 6 of the nation's ten most pedestrian unfriendly metros in the USA and its most dangerious metro, Orlando, is twice as dangerous as the most dangerous one in NC.  I think this is a telling story on the reality of  "urbanity" of Fla's cities and how much the depend upon the automobile there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep in mind these numbers reflect entire metropolitan areas and not the inner cities themselves.

Anyway, nobody ever said, we don't have our problems. Terrible urban planning over the years, along with a rapidly densifying population, and a high population of tourist have combined to make this state one of the most deadly for pedestrians in the county.

With 8 lane divided highways in several of our suburbs, these stats are right on. With our urban density, its past time, that we seek to establish more alternative mass transit options than road building. Visit the Florida forum for more info on these types of issues. Mass Transit issues are big in all of the subforums in the Florida section.

[bobliocatt]

This is the service as currently planned.  Note there is already extensive passenger train service on this route via both Amtrak and the North Caroliana Railroad.  The red portion denotes the HSPR route.  It will terminate at the new multimodal train station being built in downtown Charlotte which will also connect to the city's Light rail and communter rail systems now under construction.  There is nothing in Fla. like this except ink on paper. 

As I mentioned earlier the NC Railroad is already operating passenger trains at a profit.  Here are the details on the Piedmont.  A very popular train that runs between Raleigh and Charlotte everyday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is the Piedmont any different from Amtrak, in general, which covers Florida pretty well with several trains each day? Does it act as a commuter rail system, like South Florida's Tri-Rail or is it just a short line Amtrak subsidy? All in all, NC's rail plans sound pretty similar to Florida's HSR, which is far from dead, although its delayed until Bush's term ends.

[monsoon]

How is the Piedmont any different from Amtrak, in general, which covers Florida pretty well with several trains each day?  Does it act as a commuter rail system, like South Florida's Tri-Rail or is it just a short line Amtrak subsidy?  All in all, NC's rail plans sound pretty similar to Florida's HSR, which is far from dead, although its delayed until Bush's term ends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Piedmont & Carolinean are funded by the NCDOT. The trains are owned by NC, not the Federal government, and they only use Amtrak as an operator. There is also separate Amtrak service running through NC as well and is as dependant on federal funding and odd ball schedules as those in Florida.

The NC system is being brought up as an example of how to do it in a post Amtrak world. And it is the reason the first new High Speed Rail system in the USA will be on the Charlotte to DC route. As I mentioned earlier it is the only system in the USA that has moved to Tier II studies and detailed route/station planning.

Tri-Rail in S. Fla is a local commuter rail system of which there are several in the works in NC as well. . Its interesting that you keep bringing S. Fla back into the discussion which further proves my point that Fla's secondary cities are car dependant, spawling and not very urban. The only part of Fla that compares to what is going on in NC in terms of transit is S. Fla.

[bobliocatt]

How much does a ticket cost to take the Piedmont from Charlotte to Raleigh? How often do the trains run?

[monsoon]

The service is twice daily in each direction. Everything you wanted to know about North Carolina's train service can be found at this link. Including pricing, routes, timings, etc.

Bytrain.org

[monsoon]

Most Pedestrian Unfriendly Metros in the USA (revisited)

In doing more research on how pedestrian unfriendly the streets are in Floridia's cities, I found there was an earlier report done in 2002. This is how it compares to 2004. Florida's cities were the most dangerous in 2002 but only had 5 in the top 10 list in 2002 compared to 6 in 2004. A trend definately headed in the wrong direction.

Most Dangerous Metros in the USA for Pedestrians, 2002

1. Orlando

2. Tampa-St. Pete

3. West Palm Beach - Boca Raton

4. Memphis

5. Miami - Ft Lauderdale

6. Jacksonville

7. Houston

8. Phoenix

9. Dallas

10. Nashville

Most Dangerous Metros in the USA for Pedestrians, 2004

1. Orlando - 244

2. Tampa-St. Pete - 215

3. West Palm Beach - Boca Raton - 209

4. Miami - Ft Lauderdale - 166

5. Memphis - 159

6. Atlanta - 144

7. Greensboro-Winston Salem - 122

8. Houston - 121

9. Jacksonville - 120

10. Phoenix - 117

Orlando, West Palm and Tampa also lead the national list in continuing declines in pedestrian safety.

[bobliocatt]

Unless, I'm missing something, they both list the same exact cities and West Palm Beach is actually a part of Miami, making 4 instead of 5. If everything stays the same, it looks like we'll be down to the top three, since Jax is looking like its going to drop off the list.

[monsoon]

Unless, I'm missing something, they both list the same exact cities and West Palm Beach is actually a part of Miami, making 4 instead of 5.  If everything stays the same, it looks like we'll be down to the top three, since Jax is looking like its going to drop off the list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look again. The list is not the same. The only difference is the danger index went up significantly including for Jacksonville. I just didn't list it again.

[afh]

Its just as big as a difference between 4500 and 3800.  Is there anyone who believes that the density levels of Miami (4400) and Phoenix (3600) are similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not me! I have lived in Miami, Jax and now Phoenix metro. Phoenix density levels are nowhere similar to any of the major cities in FLA. It doesn't feel nor look as though people aren't "on top" of each other as they are in Florida. There are 3.5 million people who live in Maricopa County, but the sprawl is so spread out that you wouldn't notice the density levels.

[bobliocatt]

Look again.

[monsoon]

The US Census still makes a distinction of W. Palm being a separate Metropolitan division withing the Miami-FL-WP metro.

[bobliocatt]

^I don't think South Florida is a CSA. The US Census Bureau added Palm Beach County to Miami/Fort Lauderdale metro area, right after the 2000 Census results came out. I'm sure the Miami forumers can verify this and provide you with a link regarding this decision.

[neoanderz]

...

BTW, since we are talking about poplutaion and being urban, NC's looking to be in the TOP FIVE IN POPULATION by 2030. Here's the list  1)California, 2) Texas, 3)NY, 4) Florida, 5) NC & GA will share in this honor as they mirror one another in total state popluation. So to say that NC is smaller is less Urban is a bit naive.

A2

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe this list. Where did you get it? First off, it is very widely accepted that FL is going to surpass NY very soon to become #3 in state populations. As soon as I saw you list FL as #4 by 2030 I knew something was off. I googled for more info to see for myself. I found that NC is growing quite fast actually, but not quite so fast as you mentioned. It should reach #7 by 2030. It will be the 5th fastest growing state by sheer numbers and somewhere after the 5th by percentage. It will increase by roughly 4.2 million people (slightly under 50 percent).

FL, however, is growing much faster still. It is scheduled to surpass NY by 2011. By 2030, it is projected to have grown by 80 percent or roughly 12 million people. This puts it within the top 3 in growth by both sheer numbers and percentage. This would give it a total population of around 30 million.

Here is the MSNBC news article I used for the numbers.

[A2]

I don't believe this list.

[bobliocatt]

I can tell you right now that NC is just as Urban in its cities as all the cities listed in FL, except for the obvious. MIAMI.

I'm only familiar with Charlotte and Winston-Salem. I know from personal experience and with my own eyes that those two aren't, in general, as urban as Tampa, St. Petersburg or Jacksonville in their core neighborhoods, for the same amount of land area. That's no knock on these NC cities. They just wern't as large or dense, as the others after their boom periods in the early 20th Century.

Not to mention the fact that all the states that will be in the TOP 3 are extremely large in land area.

Of the top three, Florida is relatively small landwise. I believe its even smaller than Georgia.

On a side note the BULK of the Population boom in FL will be OLDER PEOPLE. So if you think they are moving from places like NJ and NY for a MORE urban lifestyle than you have got to be kidding. Most of the growth in NC and GA is from young professionals who are seeking great employment, good climate and affordable housing.

Even though Florida attracts older affluent residents, and there's nothing wrong with that since they support our businesses, it still pulls in its share of young professionals.

[A2]

http://pasdc.hbg.psu.edu/pasdc/PA_Stats/es.../PressTab3.html

GA and NC will be in the bottom for 65+ pop. NC and GA will continue to gain the young professional propelling BOTH states to a position of National and International prominence for Industry and Business. Look at the numbers, they are not mine , but the US Census's

A2

[bobliocatt]

I'm not arguing them. I just said Florida still pulls in a significant amount of young professionals, although they're numbers may be masked by a large amounts of retirees moving to SW Florida. Whenever any of you visit the state, or at least my area of the state, I'll be happy to give you a tour, showing what we have to offer other than retirement centers and hospitals.