Florida or North Carolina?

[A2]

I'm not arguing them.  I just said Florida still pulls in a significant amount of young professionals, although they're numbers may be masked by a large amounts of retirees moving to SW Florida. Whenever any of you visit the state, or at least my area of the state, I'll be happy to give you a tour, showing what we have to offer other than retirement centers and hospitals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Deal ! TL I like your style. I am going to be busy today too. I will try and post later. Maybe one day when I get down Florida way, we can all catch a cold beverage and enjoy talking about sky skrapers.

A2

[bobliocatt]

Sounds like a plan.

Btw, luckily we had too many people from our client's office show up for today's meeting. This means, other than the Principals, all other employees, like myself, are free to return to our desks.

[pb4uxplode]

I've come out of my UP retirement at the request of A2 just to throw out there some numbers... this is strictly regarding the comparison of young professionals in Jax and Charlotte as that is what A2 wanted some backup on... here are the stats that tell the story...

Jax Info

Median resident age: 33.8 years

Median household income: $40,316 (year 2000)

Median house value: $87,800 (year 2000)

For population 25 years and over in Jacksonville

High school or higher: 82.3%

Bachelor's degree or higher: 21.1%

Charlotte Info

Median resident age: 32.7 years

Median household income: $46,975 (year 2000)

Median house value: $134,300 (year 2000)

For population 25 years and over in Charlotte

High school or higher: 84.9%

Bachelor's degree or higher: 36.4%

Higher median income, higher median house value, and a little under twice as much college education... not to mention Charlotte is widely recognized as the financial center of the South. Anyway... back to retirement from UP I go...

[bobliocatt]

Wow, those numbers are much closer, than I originally imagined, especially since Charlotte has been recognized as a booming business center as far back as the early 1990s, an era when Jax was still known as a polluted and smelly mill city. It will be interesting to see what the 2010 numbers will be.

Btw, why did you retire from Urban Planet?

[pb4uxplode]

Takes up too much time reading the posts when I am working... plus I have been training people here at work and it doesn't look that great to be posting away in a forum... maybe I'll stay out of retirement a bit longer...

[pb4uxplode]

The numbers are fairly close... since I lived in both Jax and Charlotte I think the major difference is the business opportunity for young people here in Charlotte. I've been in banking since I was 18 (I turn 23 tomorrow) and worked in both Jax and Charlotte. Working for JPMChase in Jax and Wachovia in Charlotte it is easy to see the big difference in the types of jobs. There are a great deal of higher paying jobs available here in Charlotte, especially in the banking industry. Jax is definitely an up and coming city, but I firmly believe it is still a couple years behind Charlotte. I also don't think it can ever catch up. Both cities are building rapidly, but I think the type of industry in Charlotte lends itself to more business opportunity for younger people. Just my 2 cents...

[bobliocatt]

Don't get me wrong, I never have claimed that Charlotte wasn't more business oriented than Jacksonville, whose economy is largely military oriented. I'm just stating that a large number of young professionals have been relocating the state, to dispell the myth that only retirees are driving the state's population boom. Nevetheless, pb4uxplode's stats tend to prove this as well, because I haven't seen too many people retiring at age 33.

[pb4uxplode]

I came in a little late on this as well. Florida as a whole is definitely growing and there is definitely opportunity for young professionals (my best friend is a rookie lawyer down in Miami). I was mainly just looking at Jax and Charlotte, but Florida as a whole I have nothing against. Maybe I'm just hostile about Jax for personal reasons LOL...

[Brickell]

And you're comparing Charlotte, the Queen of the Carolina's, to Jacksonville. I think a fairer comparison would be with Orlando.

On retirees, you'll usually find that they stick with their own kind. The Villages, Naples/Ft Myers, ST Pete, Boca Raton... They usually stear clear of the urban centers. Which reminds me, Lakelander should post some of the projects that are going up in downtown Ft. Myers. Proof that old people can be urban.

[bobliocatt]

Yes, Orlando and Charlotte would be a pretty good comparison. Both are roughly around the same size, land-locked, rapidly growing, modern and are popular with yuppies, although they have completely different economic engines.

Anyway, since you bring up St. Petersburg, even with all of its retires, its becoming one of the better urban and pedestrian friendly communities in the state, complete with gridded streets and an urban waterfront. If I ever relocated to the Bay area, it would be one of the first places I'd considering buying a residence in.

St. Petersburg

Population: 248,232

Land Area: 59.6 square miles

Population Density: 4,164.97 people per mile

Pics of downtown St. Petersburg

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13209

[monsoon]

Hmm. St. Pete, is probably the slowest of the big cities in Fla. I would have no interest at all in going there even as a place to wait to die which seems to be its biggest business.

[monsoon]

And you're comparing Charlotte, the Queen of the Carolina's, to Jacksonville.  I think a fairer comparison would be with Orlando.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few more comparisons....

Jax Info

• Median resident age: 33.8 years

• Median household income: $40,316 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $87,800 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over in Jacksonville

• High school or higher: 82.3%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 21.1%

Charlotte Info

• Median resident age: 32.7 years

• Median household income: $46,975 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $134,300 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over in Charlotte

• High school or higher: 84.9%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 36.4%

Orlando Info - including suburban Orange

• Median resident age: 33.9 years

• Median household income: $41,311 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $107,500 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over Charlotte

• High school or higher: 81.8%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 26.1%

Raleigh Info - including surburban Wake

• Median resident age: 32.9 years

• Median household income: $54,980 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $162,900 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over Charlotte

• High school or higher: 89.3%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 43.9%

From these statistics, the average urban dweller in NC is younger, better educated, makes more money, and owns more expensive realestate than the ones in Fla. (for cities not considered retirement oriented)

[GaTechGuy]

State wide three year average median income. (2000-2003)

Florida: $38,533 (36th)

North Carolina: $38,432 (38th)

Southern states with higher incomes: Virginia ($49,974), Georgia ($43,316), Texas ($40,659)

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income02/statemhi.html

State wide median home value. (2000)

North Carolina: $108,300

Florida: $105,500

National Average: $119,600

Southern states with higher home values: Virginia ($125,400), Georgia ($111,200),

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-20.pdf

[Martinman]

Hmm.

[Viper]

From these statistics, the average urban dweller in NC is younger, better educated, makes more money, and owns more expensive realestate than the ones in Fla. (for cities not considered retirement oriented)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might want to try using urban statistics if you wish to compare those as 'urban' figures because for Jacksonville, that includes about 250 square miles of forests, fields, farms and more that obviously do everything to hinder those statistics down.

I'm sure he same goes for Charlotte but the median house value in Jacksonville has increased like crazy lately and is now $164,000 (up from $87,800 in 2000). Charlotte is at $169,000 (up from the $134,300 in 200) so it hasn't increased by near the same rate. (1st quarter 2005)

[monsoon]

Agreed I've never been a fan of comparing city limits as they are different. Here is the comparison of Jacksonville to Mecklenburg county, which also includes water, farms and rural areas.

Jax Info

• Median resident age: 33.8 years

• Median household income: $40,316 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $87,800 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over in Jacksonville

• High school or higher: 82.3%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 21.1%

Mecklenburg Info

• Median resident age: 33.1 years

• Median household income: $50,579 (year 2000)

• Median house value: $141,800 (year 2000)

• For population 25 years and over in Jacksonville

• High school or higher: 86.2%

• Bachelor's degree or higher: 37.1%

Jacksonville compares even less favorably Mecklenburg county which would be the same if Charlotte merged its govt with the county as Jax did.

The median home price in Mecklenburg $242,000 which would compare to the $164K for Jax. When they start building 50 story condos in downtown Jacksonville with $7 million dollar pent houses, get back to me if you want to compare real estate.

[Viper]

Considering the topic, I believe Miami easily handles that real estate notion.

However, Jax does have a few 40 story condos planned and 1 37 story condo tower already UC. Penthouse prices are yet to be known but millions are predicted.

[The_sandlapper]

I think I would have to go with FLA on this one.

[monsoon]

Considering the topic, I believe Miami easily handles that real estate notion.

However, Jax does have a few 40 story condos planned and 1 37 story condo tower already UC.  Penthouse prices are yet to be known but millions are predicted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No doubt, but Miami also has vast areas of poverty that simply don't exist in NC. If you would like, I will post the stats for Dade county, but they don't compare favorably to any of the cities listed above, including the ones in Fla. South Florida's biggest problem is one of extremes. You have extremely poor and extremly rich living there, but not much in between. Big business, the kind with good middle class jobs, have long since disappeared from there. For example, IBM shutdown its sprawling plant, where the PC was born, and moved the operations to NC & Texas.

[Brickell]

Oh yes. There's no business left in Dade County. All the middle class is gone. That's why median home values are pushing 300k. Higher in Broward and Palm Beach counties.

[bobliocatt]

The median home price in Mecklenburg $242,000 which would compare to the $164K for Jax.

[monsoon]

Well actually Mecklenburg borders almost 100 square miles of lakes and rivers. You can have waterfront property and not have to worry about hurricanes. Many many recreational boaters prefer this type of boating.

These Photos were taken back from one of the lakes that border Charlotte.

From what I have seen JAX doesn't hold itself that well against Charlotte. It lost one of its Fortune 500 companies to Charlotte and another one one is on its way down the tubes.

[bobliocatt]

^well it did pull in a super bowl and steal the ACC championship game from Charlotte, which was originally considered the frontrunner. So I guess all is not lost.

Btw, nice pics, but freshwater lakes also come a dime a dozen in Florida, as well. You should check out the amount offered in Central Florida, in and around Orlando.

[monsoon]

Thanks, No doubt there is a lot of water in Florida. There is a lot of water in most east coast states. I only presented those photos to counter the impression that Charlotte looks like Phoenix in the middle of an unsustainable desert.

[bobliocatt]

^No its definately not Phoenix. I'll admit, NC is pretty green and has an abundance of rivers and lakes.