Atlanta VS Charlotte

[ironchapman]

I do think your ATL population estimate is a little overboard. You are saying that ATL is going to be larger than NYC? (And, NYC isn't really gorwing anymore..acutally losing or staying steady).

Actually, A2 was talking about the Metro area, which would put Metro ATL about 1 mil over the city of NYC's current population. Metro NYC is somewhere around 21 million or something like that.

[monsoon]

Historical State population data (source US Census)

The two states have been fairly consistant in size and growth with both taking turns in lead population.

2000

GA - 8,186,453

NC - 8,049,313

1990

GA - 6,478,216

NC - 6,628,637

1980

GA - 5,463,000

NC - 5,882,000

1970

GA - 4,588,000

NC - 5,084,000

1890

GA - 1,837,353

NC - 1,617,947

[ironchapman]

Historical State population data (source US Census)

The two states have been fairly consistant in size and growth with both taking turns in lead population. 

2000

GA - 8,186,453

NC - 8,049,313

1990

GA - 6,478,216

NC - 6,628,637

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had forgotten how big a boom that was. That's a lot of people.

[UrbanSoutherner]

NC and GA are basically the same size. The difference is NC's population is more spread out in more cities. The Atlanta MSA now has over half of GA's population. GA is like Illinios with Chicago and the rest of the state. NC is more like Ohio with a number of comparably sized metro regions. Both states are becoming among the largest of the non-first tier states in terms of population. Being a native of SC, I can assure you that both states overshadow SC in many ways.

I think NC has some great cities. I like Charlotte, Asheville, Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Durham, Chapel Hill, and Raleigh a lot. If I were to relocate out of Atlanta, I would seriously consider some of the NC cities.

But I have to say that Charlotte and the others are all significantly smaller than Atlanta (which is part of their appeal to me in some ways). The three big regions in NC are all very multi-nodal. If you look at the population of the actual urbanized areas in the three MSAs or CSAs, they add up as follows:

Charlotte 758,927

Raleigh 541,527

Winston-Salem 299,290

Durham 287,796

Greensboro 267,884

Gastonia 141,407

High Point 132,844

Concord 115,057

Burlington 94,248

Rock Hill 70,007

That gives 2,708,987 people in 10 scattered urbanized areas spread across the entire NC piedmont region from Gastonia to Raleigh and dipping down into SC. Charlotte alone as an urbanized area has only 758,927 people, around a fifth of Atlanta's urbanized area.

Realize that Atlanta is one massive urbanized area blob with 3,499,840. That is three and half million in a single urbanized area. There were no sizable towns in their own right historically that later got sucked up into Atlanta's urban sphere. Instead, you had suburbs expanded ever outward from the urban core in Atlanta. And it was all contiguous urban development (granted lower density as you go out but dense enough to qualify as part of the urbanized area). That is a very different urbanism from a lot of smaller urban nodes with economic ties to each other.

My point is not to knock NC's cities. I really think NC is blessed with a number of great cities and is the best southern state overall in terms of the quality of its cities. As a native of SC who now resides in Atlanta, I admire much about NC's cities, including the state's flexible annexation laws. But NC does have a very multi-nodal, dispersed urbanism.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

I think an interesting fact that I heard from atrlvr was that in 1983-1984 Atlanta's population was right under 2,000,000 which is exactly where CLT is now. What is interesting about that date is that that was when Atlanta got there first Ritz. It is really interesting since NOW CLT is getting there first Ritz. I am saying all of that becasue a lot of people compare ATL and Charlotte as being 20 years apart in terms of population. I now believe that to be true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To be fair, Atlanta did get the HQ for RC with the first hotel. I don't know if it compares exactly. RC wasn't owned by Marriot when the first Ritz was opened in Atlanta. It was a very small independent company.

Charlotte's upscale retail follows Atlanta by about 30 years though. OTOH, fashion as commercial commodity has changed in the last 20 years, so Charlotte could only be only 5 or 10 years behind. So much has changed in the luxury goods market, it's really hard to tell anymore.

[teshadoh]

^ Urbansoutherner, you say you're from SC - yet you included Rock Hill with the list of NC cities!

But I like it when people agree with me, very heartwarming - the metro areas of the primary NC cities are very multi-nodal, which makes them very interesting to study especially as they become larger. So in one sense Charlotte is where Atlanta was 20 years ago - but excluding Rock Hill, Gastonia & Concord/Kannapolis - it is more like Atlanta 30 years ago. Particularly since Atlanta had traditionally been until 20 to 30 years ago a core area of Fulton, Dekalb, Clayton, & Cobb counties, then adding Gwinnett, Douglas, & Rockdale shortly after.

Atlanta's only 'Rock Hill' or 'Gastonia' would be Marietta, which until 1980 did have some resemblence of an independant urban identity as Charlotte's satellite cities have now. But otherwise none of the core suburban towns had any significant population. Now - presently Atlanta is now in that weird phase as Charlotte is, but rather than satellite suburbs it is exurbs - Griffin, Carrollton, & Cartersville are all similarly sized with Monroe NC but are not in the primary dense core of Atlanta.

Ok, I think I'm done - I have no idea if I made any point out of this, but perhaps I accidentally did

[UrbanSoutherner]

^

[ironchapman]

Atlanta's only 'Rock Hill' or 'Gastonia' would be Marietta, which until 1980 did have some resemblence of an independant urban identity as Charlotte's satellite cities have now. But otherwise none of the core suburban towns had any significant population. Now - presently Atlanta is now in that weird phase as Charlotte is, but rather than satellite suburbs it is exurbs - Griffin, Carrollton, & Cartersville are all similarly sized with Monroe NC but are not in the primary dense core of Atlanta.

I thought Roswell would be included in that list.

[teshadoh]

I know Rock Hill is in SC, but I included it since it in Charlotte's MSA. Actually, Charlotte's urbanized area includes 24,000 people in York County too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah yes, Fort Mill - that turncoat!

Ok, I'm finished nagging you...

[teshadoh]

I thought Roswell would be included in that list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roswell? That was only a mere town in 1970 - with a population of 5430. Prior to being included in Atlanta's urban area, only Marietta actually had some sizable population, which was 27,216 in 1970 - about the size of Rock Hill then and is presently about the size of Rock Hill around 55,000.

[A2]

"Charlotte alone as an urbanized area has only 758,927 people, around a fifth of Atlanta's urbanized area."

I agree with most of your points US, but what I don't know about is the Urbanized number you are speaking of. The reason I would contest this number is because Mecklenburg ALONE is nearly ALL urbanized (excluding portions of NW Meck) in terms of development. The population of just Mecklenburg is over 830,000 and will easily push past 1,000,000 by 2010. I guess I would have to better understand your defination of Urbanized area to get the point.

A2

[ironchapman]

Roswell?  That was only a mere town in 1970 - with a population of 5430.  Prior to being included in Atlanta's urban area, only Marietta actually had some sizable population, which was 27,216  in 1970 - about the size of Rock Hill then and is presently about the size of Rock Hill around 55,000.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoops! I should have checked my facts before mentioning that. I wasn't alive in thew 1970's, soI wouldn't know that much about precise stats like that, but thanks for clarifying that for me.

[monsoon]

Actually, A2 was talking about the Metro area, which would put Metro ATL about 1 mil over the city of NYC's current population. Metro NYC is somewhere around 21 million or something like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep in mind that for ATL to reach that 5 million number we are talking about a CSA that is just short of a staggering 10,000 sq miles. Comparing that to NYC would not a very productive enterprise.

[A2]

"Charlotte alone as an urbanized area has only 758,927 people, around a fifth of Atlanta's urbanized area."

I agree with most of your points US, but what I don't know about

[UrbanSoutherner]

"Charlotte alone as an urbanized area has only 758,927 people, around a fifth of Atlanta's urbanized area."

I agree with most of your points US, but what I don't know about

[ironchapman]

^ Right, monsoon, as I said earlier, I believe Atlanta has the largest Metro in the nation interms of sq. miles. I believe it's somewhere around 9,000 q. miles roight now.

[monsoon]

^ Right, monsoon, as I said earlier, I believe Atlanta has the largest Metro in the nation interms of sq. miles. I believe it's somewhere around 9,000 q. miles roight now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I get 9966 sq/miles.

[ironchapman]

I get 9966 sq/miles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where'd you get that? Anyways, the number I mentioned was an estimate mad e a few years ago.

[UrbanSoutherner]

I see where you are getting this. Nevermind.

http://www.steelecreekresidents.org/Newspa...CharlotteUA.htm

But that was in 2000, I would not be shocked to see the NEW Urbanized number @ 1,000,000 by now.

The city of CLT has gained over 90K residents since 2000 and the county has actually picked up more than 150K since this count. Just my two cents.

A2

A2

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Valid point. It is a 2000 number. I do not think the Census Bureau draws UA boundaries and does the numbers crunching but every ten years.

Charlotte of course has grown and the surrounding satellite cities like Concord, Gastonia, and Rock Hill may actually be sucked up into the same urbanized area with Charlotte by the 2010 census as the area in between fills in. I suspect Charlotte will have over 1 million in the UA by 2010 with its rapid growth and the pulling in of one or more satellite cities. I also suspect that Atlanta will have over 4 million in its UA with its rapid growth and the possible pulling in of the Gainesville UA.

[A2]

I get 9966 sq/miles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here is a GREAT site that points out the differences. Remember these are 2000 numbers

http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm

[A2]

Check out the Density number of this one. Interesting stuff. The density for a square mile of CLT and ATL are almost identical in their respective Urbanized areas.

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000compare.htm

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000compare.htm#1

Notice the development density chart on the second link.

A2

[monsoon]

Where'd you get that? Anyways, the number I mentioned was an estimate mad e a few years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I manually added up the land area of the 33 counties that make up the Atlanta CSA. The base numbers are from the Census.

[ironchapman]

Here is a GREAT site that points out the differences. Remember these are 2000 numbers

http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we're talking about the size of the Metro area, not the urban area.

Nice sites, though.

[A2]

I think the thing that is most shocking is the number on this chart that identifies the square mile change of the two cities. It is easy to see how Atlanta would win 4x over with these types of square miles added to their UA. Technically if you went that far out from center city CLT you wuld have to include the Winston-Salem MSA into CLT's UA. Just a thought

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000compare.htm#1

[UTCdude23]

I find it interesting that even in some areas that have declining populations overll, like the Buffalo MSA, the urban area shows a 22,000 person gain according to demographia.