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Could Cecil Field reopen as a Navy Air Station?


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If the People of Jacksonville care about football, why have 20% of the Jaguars' home games been blacked out?  You blame it on the team's records.  But, wouldn't a true football fan go to a game regardless of whom the winner is just to be able to watch a NFL game in person?  And what about other loosing teams whose fans support them anyway?

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This is football country. The people care, but this issue is bigger than just seeing a game. Can the average "true" fan afford to bust the family budget, on a weekly basis, to cover the insane costs for tickets, parking and overpriced food and beverages? Has Jacksonville been given a fair chance to establish decades of tradition and history that these other losers, you mentioned have? As its been stated many times, Jax's attendance numbers are in the upper half of the league, despite this team being fairly pathetic over the years, with little time to establish a tradition that other small market teams like Buffalo and Green Bay enjoy. Lets play out this season and see what happens.

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I know that the area around Cecil has been booming sinice the base closed so a buffer zone around the base could be an issue.  But, what about Jax NAS?  Development around this bas is just as bad if not worse than it is around Cecil.  NAS planes come over my yard so low you can read the numbers on them.  Why do the people who live around Cecil or Oceana get to object, when the people around Jax NAS do not?

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Jax NAS is completely boxed in by development, but its role is completely different from the role that Oceana serves and the volume of jet traffic fly in & out is significantly lower. Other than that, Jax NAS isn't on the BRAC list, like Oceana was.

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Jax NAS is completely boxed in by development, but its role is completely different from the role that Oceana serves and the volume of jet traffic fly in & out is significantly lower.  Other than that, Jax NAS isn't on the BRAC list, like Oceana was.

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NAS Jax flies helo's, P-3's, prop driven aircraft that are not that much trouble and not as noisy (helo's are but not as loud as jets).

Cecil flew A-7's (back in the day), F-18's, S-3's, mostly jets; that's why Cecil was referred to as a "Master Jet Base." Oceana flies the same jets that Cecil flew....thus more noise making and noisy environment!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER B)

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If there are not enough "true fans" to support the team, what right do they have to have the taxpayers support the team for them?

This is football country.  The people care, but this issue is bigger than just seeing a game.  Can the average "true" fan afford to bust the family budget, on a weekly basis, to cover the insane costs for tickets, parking and overpriced food and beverages?  Has Jacksonville been given a fair chance to establish decades of tradition and history that these other losers, you mentioned have?  As its been stated many times, Jax's attendance numbers are in the upper half of the league, despite this team being fairly pathetic over the years, with little time to establish a tradition that other small market teams like Buffalo and Green Bay enjoy.  Lets play out this season and see what happens.

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Jax NAS is completely boxed in by development, but its role is completely different from the role that Oceana serves and the volume of jet traffic fly in & out is significantly lower.  Other than that, Jax NAS isn't on the BRAC list, like Oceana was.

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The volume of jet traffic at NAS has gone up significantly since Cecil closed and 9-11 happened. You seldom ever saw a jet before, but now jets are about half the traffic over my house.

I want to say that when Cecil was in the closing process I heard that NAS actually has more land than Cecil. So why can't NAS be both a master jet base and a master anti-submarine warfare base?

BTW: You can hear the planes at NAS landing when you are inside the Target store on Roosevelt so I don

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Those Orions are not all that quiet when they are just a few hundred feet over your head- and the jets come in about as low and usually 2-3 at a time and lately there are more jets than Orions.

And remember when the crybabies in Mandarin were complaining about the noise NAS produced? I'll trade my house for any one in Mandarin. Then the Mandarites can really learn about noise.

NAS Jax flies helo's, P-3's, prop driven aircraft that are not that much trouble and not as noisy (helo's are but not as loud as jets).

Cecil flew A-7's (back in the day), F-18's, S-3's, mostly jets; that's why Cecil was referred to as a "Master Jet Base."  Oceana flies the same jets that Cecil flew....thus more noise making and noisy environment!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER B)

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I still don't think fan support is the main issue.  As long as Jax continues to sell more seats than half the league's teams currently do, despite being one of the smallest markets, it can't be.

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If Jacksonville sells more seats than half of the other teams can, could it be because the fans for these other teams come to see the Jaguars get beat? Can you document that all, or even most of the seats that are sold here are sold to people who live here and are Jaguars fans?

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Cecil's in the middle of no where, while NAS Jax is boxed in.  Cecil also has 17,000 acres of land and much longer runways.  From looking at Google Earth, NAS Jax doesn't have anything near that.

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Why would the state of Florida invest all of this money on this base if its not guaranteed that the new master base that is suppose to be constructed in the next 10-20 is going to be in the state???? Unless they know something that we don't.

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Cecil's in the middle of no where, while NAS Jax is boxed in.  Cecil also has 17,000 acres of land and much longer runways.  From looking at Google Earth, NAS Jax doesn't have anything near that.

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You cannot compare stats for Cecil with a mere picture of NAS. And Cecil is not really in the middle of nowhere. If it were, the city would not have had to build Brannan(sp?)/Chaffe Road or a 50,000+ foot library. The area is heavily dotted with subdivisions since Cecil closed.

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Why would the state of Florida invest all of this money on this base if its not guaranteed that the new master base that is suppose to be constructed in the next 10-20 is going to be in the state???? Unless they know something that we don't.

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I don't know, I'm in the dark like you.

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If Jacksonville sells more seats than half of the other teams can, could it be because the fans for these other teams come to see the Jaguars get beat?  Can you document that all, or even most of the seats that are sold here are sold to people who live here and are Jaguars fans?

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After an very illogical statemnt such as that, I will no longer debate you on this topic. You have just proven beyond any doubt that you fail to comprehend NFL policy.

As for Cecil, it contained a total of 30,000 acres, NAS Jax is comprised of only 3,896 acres. NAS Jax runways are shorter than Cecils, one of which is over 12,0000 and is listed as an emergency landing strip for the shuttle.

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hehe, I'm stationed in oceana currently. I could care less if this base gets shut down, I wouldn't mind comin down to Jax :).

Anyways, as far as I know, the stipulation to Oceana closing is that they can stay open if they meet the BRACs demands. The main thing they want is to remove all exsisting development that classifies as encroachment. that is, have the city buy the property, and then knock down the houses. There are houses literally yards from the runways. Also residents routinely compain about jet noise. Oceana is VERY boxed in by development. So it's easy to see why BRAC wants to close this base.

However, I do think Virginia will do everything it can to meet the BRACs demands & keep Oceana alive. It's estimated to cost the city around 20 million to buy the property, make necessary improvments, etc. Yet if the city loses Oceana, it is said to have an impact of over 1 BILLION dollars on the city. So, you can imagine Virginia is going to scramble to keep Oceana alive.

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^The estimates are up to nearly $400 million to buy the houses alone. This doesn't even count the businesses in the area they also have to buy and demolish or the complex development restriction laws they'll have to come up with. On top of that, the BRAC has stated that they don't see Oceana, as being the master jet base in the long term. This is a lose-lose situation for Va Beach. Given that the Oceana will probably close in 10 years anyway, it may be time for the Navy and VaBeach to part ship.

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I suppose so. Wow, I didn't know the costs were that high!

Well, Va Beaches loss could be Jacksonvilles gain. Imagine having all that revenue being sucked out of Va Beach being funneled in to Jax. The impact could be huge. I hope ol' Jeb is pulling some strings in Washington, which I bet he is.

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I have been without computer access since Wed. but was in Jax when the news broke about BRAC.

As I have stated earlier, I think that Jacksonville's effort to re-open Cecil as a Navy base is a huge rush to judgement.

Reopening the base MAY be a good opportunity for the city. However, it is probably more likely that do so would be a HUGE mistake. At this point, there is simply far too little information to decide.

Already it is known that a Auto plant or a Aerospace industry could NOT co-exist with the base on-site because the Navy will receive title to the ENTIRE base. Even if that were not true, the noise levels and the increased traffic congestion that the base would bring would preclude a "mega-project".

This is a quote from the Karen Mathis column that addresses this issue:

On a larger scale, without city-owned Cecil, there would be no huge "mega-site" of free Jacksonville land to hand out to the likes of an auto manufacturer or semiconductor plant.

When it comes to those big deals, the area has few mega-sites to offer. A mega-site consists of at least 500 contiguous acres. It must have services and utilities or be able to hook up quickly.

While the area once sported up to six such sites, the number dwindled as developers built out the property.

Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce executive Jerry Mallot said there are just two area mega-sites other than Cecil: Westlake Industrial Park, in far west Duval County, and Woodstock Industrial Park in Baker County.

Mallot said St. Johns and Clay counties are developing options for mega-sites, but those aren't ready yet.

The loss of Cecil doesn't mean the area wouldn't do all it could to recruit a mega-project. While privately owned parks might not offer free land, they can expect substantial city and state help if they make the short list for such mega-projects.

The loss of Cecil as a commerce center would challenge the region to figure out how to provide even more industrial and commercial land over the coming decade as mega-sites and other locations are developed. Keep in mind that the hot housing market has residential developers looking for land wherever they can find and afford it.

Just some of the questions that need answers are :

** What will be the per capita wage for these jobs?

** What geographic area will be hearing jet noise from the base?

** How many residents and businesses are located within this "noise zone"?

** How much adacent but vacant land is also in the "noise zone" that will lose value as a result of the base?

** What will happen with the Equestrian Center and the other Recreational facilities built in Cecil since it closed?

** How will the city pay for it's $50mm contribution to the relocation expenses?

** Will a tax increase be required to pay that $50mm?

** Who (city, state or Navy) will pay any cost overruns for the business and other relocations beyond the $250mm allocated?

** How will property values be determined for the relocating properties?

** What safeguards are in place that the affected businesses aren't shortchanged and the taxpayer's aren't extorted for more than fair-market prices?

Frankly, if the answer to the first question is anything less than $5,000 MORE the EXISTING average income for Jacksonville, then the rest of the questions are moot, just tell the Navy, thanks but no thanks.

This decision will impact Jacksonville for decades to come. Let's don't make a bad decision just so Peyton and Jeb can have new feathers in their political caps.

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Mathis column on Cecil

Here is the entire Mathis column, in the interest of full disclosure.

In this article (below), Peyton states that getting Cecil would "double the per capita income" of Duval County. Uh, didn't Jax have this base before, did the per capita income drop when they left????

For that to happen, these Navy personnel will need to be making over $60,000 a year each on average. I'm no expert, but that sounds much higher than what most Navy personnel I have known make.

Sounds like political justification/B.S. to me.

Westside had little say in base action

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I agree with you Vic, that we all certainly need to hear more information before passing judgment on Cecil feild one way or another.

However, I tend to like the idea of re-opening Cecil for seemingly some of the same reasons that Vic is concerned.

- I like the fact that lots of rural land will be devalued as a result of the base (the jets take off to the West, btw, which is nearly 100% rural ... for now). Suburban residential sprawl is already knocking at the Eastern edges of Cecil, and a new base will help prevent this westward sprawl. Furthermore, since all the western land is still zoned as agricultural, conservation, or rural residential, no one can complain that the jets will prevent them from building their subdivisions.

- I also like the fact that it eliminates an industrial "supersite." If the average incomes from a military base aren't suitable for Jax's economic development, neither is an auto plant!! The last thing Jax needs is an influx of unskilled to semi-skilled unionized industrial workers. Also, supersites aside, I can't take seriously the argument that Jax is lacking in vacant industrial space. Take a drive through the Northside and Northwest Jax in particular.

In the end, which would Jax rather have ... an industrial park (with an unknown level of future occupancy) which absolutely encourages further westward sprawl to accomodate residents and services? Or, a military base which all-but prevents further westward residential sprawl? But as Vic said, there are still tons of unknown financial details.

Of course, this is all moot. The ball is in Virginia's court to keep the base. No one in Florida has any control over that. Plus, if Virginia does lose the base, Jax and Florida will do basically anything to re-open Cecil. And no one will convince them otherwise. The political will is far too strong.

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I love how politics play over actual military Strategy. They need to look at in the way its best for our military and not who's pocket is going to get fatter. If its better off in Jax so be it, but the politics need to be pushed out of it. It actually looks as if its gotten worse with the BRAC, who is suppose to be unbiased but are not. The last minute addition of Oceana was a show of that. When the Navy wants it to stay in Vabeach and the BRAC wants it closed shows this. Jeb was the one who actually got it added on the list. But thats politics. You guys are going to get the jets which is fine it is a opportunity for Vabeach to bring in some kind of Biotech park.

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