PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[HartfordTycoon]

Do you consider Casino revenue as tourist money? I think that's pretty steady year round.

A large component of the feasability is the lack of competition. That's something funders alway look for in a business plan. They do have the funding needed secured already. That's means there is a large, experienced bank in NYC willing to put up $2 Billion dollars for this thing. If you think they haven't thought long and hard about this one, you are mistaking. In this situation the odds of success are greatly improved due to the fact that there is nothing even remotely close to this in the Northeastern United States. People need day trips even in the winter. Alot of those day trips end up at the Casino, so the tourists in large part are already coming here in the winter. How hard do you really think it's gonna be to get them to go someplace the kids would like while they're here in SE CT anyway?

[damus]

Do you consider Casino revenue as tourist money? I think that's pretty steady year round.

yeah .... steady stream of next to no money (slot fund) going to the affected towns while the rest of the state and the general fund get the rest

[HartfordTycoon]

yeah .... steady stream of next to no money (slot fund) going to the affected towns while the rest of the state and the general fund get the rest

I didn't neccessarily mean money for the state, just the fact that people come and spend money in this area year round, thus proving it's a viable concept. The good thing about Utopia is it will be governed by US Law, unlike the Casinos, and will be more integrated with the surrounding community since it is at least partially adjacent to Norwich, a semi-urban city.

[PCGrad02]

True, but all of that money is spent at one of two places, the only other stop could be at the gas station. Judging by the number of children that have been left in the car or at an all night McDonalds, I don't know how many parents would take time out of playing the slots to take the kiddies down the road. I'm not saying the place won't be successful, I just don't think that it will be all that they are making it out to be. Everyone should get into the Hotel business if you really think that all those people are going to come.

[JimSawhill]

Do you consider Casino revenue as tourist money? I think that's pretty steady year round.

A large component of the feasability is the lack of competition. That's something funders alway look for in a business plan. They do have the funding needed secured already. That's means there is a large, experienced bank in NYC willing to put up $2 Billion dollars for this thing. If you think they haven't thought long and hard about this one, you are mistaking. In this situation the odds of success are greatly improved due to the fact that there is nothing even remotely close to this in the Northeastern United States. People need day trips even in the winter. Alot of those day trips end up at the Casino, so the tourists in large part are already coming here in the winter. How hard do you really think it's gonna be to get them to go someplace the kids would like while they're here in SE CT anyway?

Hartford Tycoon:

Well said.

JimS

[HartfordTycoon]

True, but all of that money is spent at one of two places, the only other stop could be at the gas station. Judging by the number of children that have been left in the car or at an all night McDonalds, I don't know how many parents would take time out of playing the slots to take the kiddies down the road. I'm not saying the place won't be successful, I just don't think that it will be all that they are making it out to be. Everyone should get into the Hotel business if you really think that all those people are going to come.

I would get into the Hotel Business, Residential, and Retail business in Norwich if I had the money. I think it would be a GREAT INVESTMENT with ridiculous returns on the initial investment. Some people will get very rich when this comes. It's gonna be all about who saw the vision and chose to capitalize on the possibilities.

[PCGrad02]

You are absolutely right dealing with Residential in Norwich. The city has exploded with growth in the last few years. There were 1600 housing permits issued last year alone. There is a downside to all of this, all of the available land is turning into disconnected condo projects and expensive subdivisions. The problem is that the prices for the homes are way too high compared to the average income in this area. Lack of commercial and industrial development is hurting Norwich big time. The vast majority of the workers employed @ Utopia would more than likely reside in Norwich. It is the biggest city nearby. It is the only city that has utilities throughout. Multifamily development needs to occur, but it needs to be well planned and affordable for the average Casino or potential Utopia employee. This city is on the brink, but it could go either way.

[Jerry2]

Jerry:

Why will it be a WHITE ELEPHANT? I guess you are one of the NIMBYs who don't want to see Connecticut succeed! I think it would help tourism and maybe the side benefits would be manufacturing jobs (for movie backgrounds, etc?).

JimS

Yes it will be inside. I've heard it would be the biggest indoor AMUSEMENT PARK in the world.

JimS

No, I'm not a NIMBY, but please explain to me how you can support a project that has no plans, no renderings, and a fast-talking gugotz at the realm? he can't even answer basic questions about traffic, let alone elaborate...

[JimSawhill]

I would get into the Hotel Business, Residential, and Retail business in Norwich if I had the money. I think it would be a GREAT INVESTMENT with ridiculous returns on the initial investment. Some people will get very rich when this comes. It's gonna be all about who saw the vision and chose to capitalize on the possibilities.

Hartford Tycoon:

I could've bought an old rundown building in Norwich 10 years ago that would be nice for a BOUTIQUE HOTEL. I think you'll a different Norwich in 5 years. I'd love to build a camping resort in Preston.

JimS

[PCGrad02]

Hartford Tycoon:

I could've bought an old rundown building in Norwich 10 years ago that would be nice for a BOUTIQUE HOTEL. I think you'll a different Norwich in 5 years. I'd love to build a camping resort in Preston.

JimS

Preston already has Strawberry Fields on RT 165, you'd need big money to get a large tract of land these days. Norwich is not ready for any sort of Boutique Hotel at this point. I hope in 5 years, but as a lifelong resident, I've seen too many pipe dreams come and go, we need to focus on necessary developments first, Food and Drink, retail will follow.

[JimSawhill]

True, but all of that money is spent at one of two places, the only other stop could be at the gas station. Judging by the number of children that have been left in the car or at an all night McDonalds, I don't know how many parents would take time out of playing the slots to take the kiddies down the road. I'm not saying the place won't be successful, I just don't think that it will be all that they are making it out to be. Everyone should get into the Hotel business if you really think that all those people are going to come.

PCGrad02:

Do you think all GAMBLERS leave their kids all night at McDonald's? Or in the car to GAMBLE? Jeez, I've seen kids at the Museum that the PEQUOT has. I've seen kids at the ARENA at the Mohegan Sun. Yes, there are some people who do leave kids at McD's or in the CAR, but some GAMBLERS hire a BABYSITTER for their kids!!

JimS

[HartfordTycoon]

Preston already has Strawberry Fields on RT 165, you'd need big money to get a large tract of land these days. Norwich is not ready for any sort of Boutique Hotel at this point. I hope in 5 years, but as a lifelong resident, I've seen too many pipe dreams come and go, we need to focus on necessary developments first, Food and Drink, retail will follow.

Definately true for now. The biggest need currently is housing options. I think it would be nice to improve that in the area even if Utopia doesn't come to town.

If you bought land or property now, even with the purpose of holding on to it for a while, it would be a good idea.

[Jerry2]

I'm not going to go on a tirade of a debate on this project. This is not a new school or an apartment complex. It's a development that is ill suited to that region. I think it is much more suitable in an already existing urban fabric that CT is loaded with...Please don't tell me that Norwich is urban when other CT cities have suffered for decades. Norwich is on the western border of one of the largest natural areas in the East. This project will bring traffic, sprawl, and pollution. In one of your previous posts Tycoon, you said it was ill-suited for around Hartford or New Haven. If this project is only 475 acres, explain to me how that couldn't fit in Bridgeport, New Haven, or even Hartford metro? esp. with those areas having the transportation methods to make this project feasible...

[PCGrad02]

PCGrad02:

Do you think all GAMBLERS leave their kids all night at McDonald's? Or in the car to GAMBLE? Jeez, I've seen kids at the Museum that the PEQUOT has. I've seen kids at the ARENA at the Mohegan Sun. Yes, there are some people who do leave kids at McD's or in the CAR, but some GAMBLERS hire a BABYSITTER for their kids!!

JimS

I never said that all gamblers leave thier children in the car when they go to the Casino. I was implying that the numbers Utopia is throwing out there seem to be on the high side. The vast majority of people that come here to gamble do not even bring their children. What I was referring to was the summer tourist season, when families do come to SE CT. Utopia may very well pull a huge amount of people in the summer, but during the winter, when children are in school, there is not going to be that great of a pull. People may leave the Casino to check out Utopia, but they are not going to visit the place every single time the go to gamble. Many people won't go to Foxwoods if they like Mohegan Sun, people pick their place and stick with it, especially when you think you're "lucky" at one or the other. Who knows, maybe Mohegan and Utopia will have a water shuttle between the two. As was stated above, this project has way to many questions surrounding it to have my support, and I live within walking distance.

[HartfordTycoon]

I'm not going to go on a tirade of a debate on this project. This is not a new school or an apartment complex. It's a development that is ill suited to that region. I think it is much more suitable in an already existing urban fabric that CT is loaded with...Please don't tell me that Norwich is urban when other CT cities have suffered for decades. Norwich is on the western border of one of the largest natural areas in the East. This project will bring traffic, sprawl, and pollution. In one of your previous posts Tycoon, you said it was ill-suited for around Hartford or New Haven. If this project is only 475 acres, explain to me how that couldn't fit in Bridgeport, New Haven, or even Hartford metro? esp. with those areas having the transportation methods to make this project feasible...

Maybe you are right that it could fit into one of the more urban regions of CT, but this is also a business decision. Fairfield, New Haven, and Hartford county combined do not get the level of tourism seen in SE CT thanks to the Casinos. That is the main rationale for locating it there and I cannot say I disagree with that rationale as a business person. I concede that it will drastically alter the landscape, something I am completely willing to live with. I live in Hartford, and am not all that concerned with preserving the rural character of the region. I admit to that. That's why it's up to the local residents to decide if they want this in their backyard, not mine.

[damus]

I'm not going to go on a tirade of a debate on this project. This is not a new school or an apartment complex. It's a development that is ill suited to that region. I think it is much more suitable in an already existing urban fabric that CT is loaded with...Please don't tell me that Norwich is urban when other CT cities have suffered for decades. Norwich is on the western border of one of the largest natural areas in the East. This project will bring traffic, sprawl, and pollution. In one of your previous posts Tycoon, you said it was ill-suited for around Hartford or New Haven. If this project is only 475 acres, explain to me how that couldn't fit in Bridgeport, New Haven, or even Hartford metro? esp. with those areas having the transportation methods to make this project feasible...

it's 419 acres with another 80 in Norwich still up for grabs. You're right on when you say this project is ill suited for this region. There are talks of Utopia owning many satellite locations for support facilities and parking, and they have already bought some land. The best case scenario assuming this thing is what they say it is will change the character of the region for good, and people don't seem to realize this.

Best case, the rapid growth will be managed and we will see transit oriented development along rail lines, increased bus ridership (it may sound racist, but chinese people and other immigrants who would likely move in here happily ride the bus), lower taxes on commercial development attracting more jobs to the area, an airport, and the completion of the area's unfinished highways. You would be insane to think that we're at all likely to see the best case scenario. Here comes a traffic nightmare, pollution, sprawl, and the loss of a region's character. I'm all for development, but not this crazy sh*t....

Looks like the 500 some odd acre family farm here in Preston won't be around too much longer ... half the neighborhood is full of family members who were given parcels of this farm to build on. That's the type of character in a town that I like that you can't just replicate by moving to another rural town. Given its relative proximity to 4 medium sized cities and the casinos (which started all this mess), this place was the perfect tucked away place. I suspect my great uncle will see too many dollar signs after Utopia is built, and we'll see more subdivisions like what happened on one of the farms on this street. Goodbye small town, hello homogonized sprawling America!

[HartfordTycoon]

it's 419 acres with another 80 in Norwich still up for grabs. You're right on. The best case scenario assuming this thing is what they say it is will change the character of the region for good, and people don't seem to realize this. I'm all for development, but not this crazy sh*t....

Looks like the 500 some odd acre family farm here in Preston won't be around too much longer ... half the neighborhood is full of family members who were given parcels of this farm to build on. That's the type of character in a town that I like that you can't just replicate by moving to another rural town. Given its relative proximity to 4 medium sized cities and the casinos (which started all this mess), this place was the perfect tucked away place. I suspect my great uncle will see too many dollar signs after Utopia is built, and we'll see more subdivisions like what happened on one of the farms on this street. Goodbye small town, hello homogonized sprawling America!

You are right, it will change the character of New London County. You need to vote with your heart on this one. I really only speak from the viewpoint of a guy from Hartford who wants Hollywood to come to CT. I want the state to grow and would like to see it more developed. That's why we don't see eye to eye. I understand and agree with all of your arguments against the project. I just want it to happen and so do a lot of people. And a lot of people don't. It's going to a democratic process and I guess the will of the Town will prevail.

[damus]

You are right, it will change the character of New London County. You need to vote with your heart on this one. I really only talk of it from the viewpoint of a guy from Hartford who wants Hollywood to come to CT. I want the state to grow and would like to see it more developed. That's why we don't see eye to eye. I understand and agree with all of your arguments against the project. I just want it to happen and so do a lot of people. And a lot of people don't. It's going to a democratic process and I guess the will of the Town will prevail.

I have a feeling you'll get your way. I'll be at the meeting to see what they have proposed, I still need to be convinced that this project is viable (though I'm more and more against it for personal reasons). Some old guy brought in a cushioned lawn chair last time and sat in front of us, so my cousin and I are thinkin of going with a reclining loveseat or couch as a joke. The townspeople will speak and they will say yes to Utopia.

[JimSawhill]

Definately true for now. The biggest need currently is housing options. I think it would be nice to improve that in the area even if Utopia doesn't come to town.

If you bought land or property now, even with the purpose of holding on to it for a while, it would be a good idea.

Tycoon:

More homes in a RURAL area?? Come on!! It shouldn't be homes -- lets use it as FARMLAND! Some of the small towns are unique -- do you want them to look like a SUBURB? It needs to be left NATURAL, however, if Preston, Griswold, Franklin, Sterling wants to get people -- let the citizens decide, but it doesn't need to be looking like a suburb of New York, Boston or Albany.

What they should do is:

1) Improve the Norwich City Schools. Maybe Families would move into Norwich and fix up some of the older buildings.

2) rebuild the old rail link (NEC to P&W) and use it for passengers...A train from Palmer or Amherst to New London on the NEC and a train from Worcester -or Lowell -- on the P&W could met in Norwich. Just think of the people.

3) Build Utopia. Along with Mystic Seaport, the AQUARIUM, the Nautilas... it is a tourist region of Connecticut -- the two tribal nations have museums and they are nice.

And...

4) Reduce taxes and let people build manufacturing plants... people will need jobs... or they won't come...

JIMS

[JimSawhill]

it's 419 acres with another 80 in Norwich still up for grabs. You're right on when you say this project is ill suited for this region. There are talks of Utopia owning many satellite locations for support facilities and parking, and they have already bought some land. The best case scenario assuming this thing is what they say it is will change the character of the region for good, and people don't seem to realize this.

Best case, the rapid growth will be managed and we will see transit oriented development along rail lines, increased bus ridership (it may sound racist, but chinese people and other immigrants who would likely move in here happily ride the bus), lower taxes on commercial development attracting more jobs to the area, an airport, and the completion of the area's unfinished highways. You would be insane to think that we're at all likely to see the best case scenario. Here comes a traffic nightmare, pollution, sprawl, and the loss of a region's character. I'm all for development, but not this crazy sh*t....

Looks like the 500 some odd acre family farm here in Preston won't be around too much longer ... half the neighborhood is full of family members who were given parcels of this farm to build on. That's the type of character in a town that I like that you can't just replicate by moving to another rural town. Given its relative proximity to 4 medium sized cities and the casinos (which started all this mess), this place was the perfect tucked away place. I suspect my great uncle will see too many dollar signs after Utopia is built, and we'll see more subdivisions like what happened on one of the farms on this street. Goodbye small town, hello homogonized sprawling America!

damus:

The only way the farms will be farms is if -- The inheirence tax was eliminated, or if the state buys up the development rights. 500 farms in Preston will be housing -- unless the zoning board gets ELECTED to keeep Preston as a RURAL town -- only they can plan what they want their town to be...

I don't want rural Connecticut to look like it is a suburb of Chicago or Boise or DesMoines...I want Rural Connecticut to have farms...

[damus]

For the most part, isn't the manufacturing sector on the decline in this country? The casinos provide some decent low skill jobs. I believe dealers (I'm not sure) that they pay in the 30s (w/ tips). Other than that, we do have manufacturing at EB, but the government has been trying to close down the Groton sub base for a long time. Without the sub base, EB is gone. Hopefully the area does attract some corporations if the Utopia (and North Stonington) Studios projects come around. We already have Sonalysts, why not attract other companies with interests in this economic sector?

At the same time, with new highways, commuter rails, and an airport hopefully being built, parts of the towns (i.e. farmland) can be zoned industrial or commercial and we can attract some businesses looking for a prime location to expand, and put stricter limits on residential development. I believe this is my "best case" scenario I described as "Fairfield county" type rural areas. I would hate to see yuppie golf courses, houses, and shopping plazas pop up all over the place around here.

In a perfect world, we would see a good percentage of the new residents, hotels, and businesses within walking distance of a commuter rail line. This is, however an automobile centric nation. Is there a chance Norwich would welcome the sudden urbanization that a project this big would provide the opportunity for, or will they (and the rest of NL county) go for the Los Angeles style of sprawling development?

This is all said under the pretense that this Utopia proposal actually does what they say it'll do. Hopefully PCGrad02 is right and this will never get built. The influx of this many people so suddenly on such a small area would have an enormous effect. What was Orlando like before Disney?

[PCGrad02]

Norwich already has seen a dramatic increase in housing rehabilitation due to the Casinos. We have seen buildings rennovated that nobody would have blinked at ten years ago. The school system here is excellent as well, we have one of the top high schools in the country, and one of a select few with a museum on campus. There are massive condo projects going on all over the city as I write this. Norwich has the infrastructure already in place to handle the influx of new residents, what we need is commercial and industrial to grow in order to offset the taxes in town. Actually, what we really need is to start seeing our FAIR share of the slot revenue money from the state. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how Bridgeport should recieve more money than we do, they have nothing to do with any of the Casinos.

There is very little land left here, we need to grow up, not out. I say we should bring back the trolley lines that SEAT replaced. Having fixed transit systems would encourage dense development along the rail lines. Some of the tracks are still buried under the pavement that the buses roll on today.

We need to get the Casinos involved in affordable housing for workers and their families. At the same time, we need to step up enforcement of housing code so that 30 people living in a house, sleeping in shifts can no longer occur. 60% of Norwich is considered low-income, it has been ignored by the state for far too long. It will take cooperation across the board in order to get this right. Utopia will only compound the problem if nothing is done previous to groundbreaking. The puzzle needs to be put together, right now the various parts are scattered across the floor.

[PCGrad02]

Utopia Meetings

[HartfordTycoon]

Everyone here makes valid points. I don't really want to see all of the farm land built on. I do know that economically speaking the farms in CT are very minor players. I agree that Norwich needs to step up and shoulder the brunt of the burden of this to the extent that it can and that they should be building up and not out. How about some High Rises in Norwich? That would be pretty interesting to see. The key is going to be the zoning. Like everyone is saying, if you don't allow them to change the zoning they can't build housing on farm land. However, Money talks so these things can't really be predicted fully.

The manufacturing industry is dead in America. You can thank the corporations for that. It's not about high taxes. They pay people pennies a day overseas for jobs that would be decent in America. Lowering taxes will do NOTHING to correct that imbalance. The entertainment industry is the biggest export we have in America today. This is an industry we need to welcome to the state with open arms.

[Phizzy]

At least UTOPIA STUDIOS is trying to CREATE TAXES for the state and cities.

Oh, that's what they are trying to do. How noble of them!