Where will Providence be in 20 years?

[Frankie811]

Every so often a plane will make an approach over Federal Hill which is noticable.

I used to live right under LaGuardia's flight path in Flushing, Queens. THAT was noisy, it felt like I could reach up and touch the planes, they went right over the house. Long Beach in Nassau County, NY is a cool place for plane spotting, you can play in the surf and watch 747s from Kennedy seem to skim across the dunes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I once stayed at a hotel near the Toronto airport and couldn't believe how low the planes flew overhead. I actually went outside and took a picture which I showed people I know. They couldn't believe it. The planes almost touched the roof of the hotel. And I have the pic to prove it

[MikeycPVD]

  Your kidding!!!!!!????????  Well, I noticed that there is a group out there against airport expansion which includes Cranston residents. But I must note that I live in East Providence and the planes coming into runway 23left fly/take off  directly over my house/Riverside so EP residents may have an issue also. But it dosen't bother me. I always look at the big picture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The departures heading out over EP are taking off from runway 5, landing runway 23. As an aside, runway 5L/23R was closed several years ago both to discourage general aviation traffic and ease overnight parking for the airliners. While the terminal is suitable now in the number of gates it has, the number of terminators or RONs, aka Remain-Overnights, outnumber the parking positions at the terminal. Currently there are about 7 aircraft that park on the old 5L/23R, which is now designated taxiway Victor. Once 5L/23R closed, the former main runway that used to be 5R/23L is now just 5/23.

The runway 23 arrivals come into PVD from easterly and westerly directions. Typically you will find the arrivals from the south coming up the east side of the airport over the Bay, and depending on traffic and weather, may start their turns to final as close as Gaspee Point and RI Yacht Club all the way up to Attleboro to set up over the final approach fix situated over by the I-195/Rte 114 interchange.

Arrivals from the west and southwest overfly Western Cranston and follow the same path, just a mirrored image. Alot of them come over my neighborhood in Roger Williams Park, which sets up to about a 3 mile final. Sometimes you will see them spaced out a little further as Cotuit said, over Federal Hill and Downcity.

The departures you see heading over EP/Riverside/Rumford are the ones heading south to destinations like PHL, BWI, DCA, CLT, and Florida. Because of noise abatement issues (thanks NIMBYS!) they are required to make a 40 degree heading change right after takeoff, thus taking them on a 270* heading out over the bay. After a thousand feet or so, they make another turn south heading down the bay over the Newport area. Once out over the ocean, they hook up at a fix and turn west passing just south of Block Island, and there-on out.

[eltron]

Ah, the little acronym "NIMBY" sure gets thrown around this board alot...Damn you NIMBY (shakes fist) damn you....

Who thought it would be a good idea to develop a major airport smack dab in the middle of a highly populated community anyway? And yes, I know the airport has been in that location for a fair amount of time, but its utilization as a REAL airport is fairly recent.

[Garris]

Who thought it would be a good idea to develop a major airport smack dab in the middle of a highly populated community anyway?

Imagine that, building an airport near where the majority of the people who may use it actually live...

And yes, I know the airport has been in that location for a fair amount of time, but its utilization as a REAL airport is fairly recent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps. I don't know the history. But I'm sure some of those people moved there after its use as such was widely recognized.

I mean, in NYC, I lived next to a MetroNorth train line. Sometimes it was annoying (man, those Diesels were loud), but most of the time it didn't matter. But I wasn't trying to shut down the MTA after I moved next to their line...

- Garris

[Recchia]

The airport was there while land around it was still farmland. Here's an aerial from 1939, the airport is off to the left and streets are just being laid out on farmland to build houses.

[eltron]

The airport was there while land around it was still farmland.  Here's an aerial from 1939, the airport is off to the left and streets are just being laid out on farmland to build houses. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, as I said, the airport was there early, but its usage didn't explode until the new terminal was built and Southwest began began service here with its move into the Northeast. This was at least 20 years after most of the area around the airport was built up.

I worked in residential noise abatement around various airports, including TF Green, and I can assure you, it is not pleasant, or even bearable, living in the higher noise contours.

I think expanding TF Green would probably be a good thing overall for RI, but its a seriously complicated issue. I don't think the lives of thousands of people can be chalked up as simple NIMBYism.

[brandon401]

I think you have to look at the hole picture. By expanding the TF Green you bring an economic incentive to the area. These airports are vital to the growth of cities and states such as Rhode Island. The noise is not unbearable, I just recently moved from Rhode Island to virginia beach, virginia. You wanna talk about jet noise, how bout listening to f-18 superhornets taking off about every 2 n a half minutes from Oceana. They litterally shake your house.

[Frankie811]

I think you have to look at the hole picture. By expanding the TF Green you bring an economic incentive to the area. These airports are vital to the growth of cities and states such as Rhode Island.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True. Many new hotels have recently been built in Warwick thanks to the airport. Most people probably don't realize that flight crews need a place to stay over night. Hence the new hotel rooms.

[Garris]

I think expanding TF Green would probably be a good thing overall for RI, but its a seriously complicated issue. I don't think the lives of thousands of people can be chalked up as simple NIMBYism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think many are unsympathetic (well, I may be slightly, as what percentage of those thousands bought in knowing they were living next to an airport), but what are the options?? The city, state, and even region need a vital transit hub. It's almost beyond critical. Other municipalities mere minutes to hours away are more than ready to step up and take the business, the money, and the growth the airport brings.

Look at cities like New Haven which suffer economically for a lack of a major airport nearby. The pattern I've always seen everywhere I've lived is the following:

1 - Airport A really needs to expand badly

2 - NIMBY's fight airport to the near death, often for decades

3 - Eventually, crisis leads to airport expansion happening

4 - Airport expansion is an unqualified success, growth happens, airport flourishes, world doesn't end, property values don't plummet, Earth doesn't stop spinning

5 - Everyone wonders with such a wonderful airport effort, why didn't this happen 20 years ago?

In White Plains, Minnesota, NYC, upstate NY, CT, everywhere I've lived has followed the same pattern, and I can promise you that 99.9% of the people in the region would probably say they've benefitted from the airport.

You're right. Maybe a couple hundred to a thousand (most of these NIMBY groups are never more than a few hard core individuals to a few dozen at max), but the last time I check, our metro area was 1.6 million.

- Garris

[eltron]

Regardless, TF Green has the decided disadvantage of essentially being landlocked by densely populated neighborhoods on all sides.

Its already federal mandate that airports must provide environmental and noise abatement for affected populations, NIMBY groups yapping or not. TF Green is not going to have an easy time of expanding one way or the other, and if they do, it is going to be at extreme expense. The purported NIMBY's are really inconsequential in this aspect of it. Sure the rail link is a fantastic thing, but I think TF Green may be destined to remain a regional airport...we shall see.

But really, I was just taking (very slight) exception to the constant harping about "NIMBY's" on the board, and not just about this particular issue. The "go-go-go....yeah, growth, develop, build, its all good" attitude is dangerous and simplistic...it's just not that simple to make healthy places, communities, regions. Not everyone urging caution or voicing objection is saying "not in my back yard," but are just saying "wait a second, maybe theres a better way." And stopping to look at it for a second might just reveal that the costs outweigh the benefits.

Often, the needs of the commons outweigh the needs of the individual, but I think debate, in whatever form it might take, in the end makes for better projects and better communities.

Now if only I could get a direct flight to the west coast out of TF Green....

[Recchia]

But really, I was just taking (very slight) exception to the constant harping about "NIMBY's" on the board, and not just about this particular issue. The "go-go-go....yeah, growth, develop, build, its all good" attitude is dangerous and simplistic...it's just not that simple to make healthy places, communities, regions. Not everyone urging caution or voicing objection is saying "not in my back yard," but are just saying "wait a second, maybe theres a better way." And stopping to look at it for a second might just reveal that the costs outweigh the benefits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that taking a second look at things based on people's concerns is very important, although many times the people's concerns are either selfish, irrelevant or stemming from ignorance. Most people who don't want something near them could care less about it going near somebody else, and that's the attitude that sucks. Instead of crying "not in my backyard", people should instead be saying "not in anyone's backyard."

[Garris]

The "go-go-go....yeah, growth, develop, build, its all good" attitude is dangerous and simplistic...it's just not that simple to make healthy places, communities, regions.

I'm sorry, this is just too funny to see in reference to anything having to do with Providence.

I've lived in areas of the country where there truly is go-go-go development going on... Places like Scottsdale, AZ and areas of Minnesota and the Midwest where, literally, a project will be proposed to the municipality (often with no public input), land is being cleared the next week, and in a month, before you can say "environmental impact study," you have a big, gray retail box sitting there with the corporate sign over the door or no-character "luxury" condos. The city in Minnesota I lived in must have increased its land area by 25% in just the 4 years I was there alone... Scottsdale visibly grew by the month...

By contrast, most urban areas of the Northeast are cast in amber. Look at how relatively unchanged the skylines of places like Providence, Albany, Baltimore, Newark, New Haven, White Plains, and even Boston are since the mid-70's/early 80's in comparison to dynamic development in cities in the South, West, and even Midwest... One prominent developer I talked to in the Midwest, who had projects all over the nation, said laughing, when I asked him why he had no work in the Northeast, "I'd like to see my stuff built before I go into the nursing home."

Minneapolis, for example, has several old mill neighborhoods of the city similar to the Promenade that are all being turned around and will be completely (and fantastically) developed, complete with LRT, in about a decade's time. We've been talking, and talking, and talking about developing the Promenade for over 20 years, with barely a shovel in the ground. Don't believe me? Check out the action in the Minneapolis area of UP.

Obviously, things have to be done carefully and done right, but I find your description of NIMBY's as people asking, "wait a second, maybe theres a better way" to be kind of naive... I attend Wayland Sq association meetings, and I went to those Prov 2020 forums, and most people there aren't saying, "This is better," they're saying, "No, we don't want anything. We want trees/open space/parks" (including next to the highway!). Many of the folks here on the East Side don't only want no development, they'd turn back the clock if they could! That's fine if this is Kingston, perhaps, but it's not... It's a city...

I agree with Recchia. The vast majority of NIMBY's are just that... It's fine if it's somewhere else, just not in their neighborhood. The roudy Mount Hope folks wouldn't be out there demonstrating against Miriam if the hospital decided to build its next building in South Providence, I haven't seen the Wayland Sq folks at city meetings decrying the monstrosity of the Federal Hill condos (several folks I know here are considering moving to them!), and I haven't seen all the high-horse Fox Point folks here in Wayland Sq fighting the 4 floor condos... Nope, it's really all is NIMBY...

- Garris

[eltron]

We've been talking, and talking, and talking about developing the Promenade for over 20 years, with barely a shovel in the ground.  Don't believe me?  Check out the action in the Minneapolis area of UP. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously market driven, as is 90% percent of all of the stuff going on in Providence right now. Plus Minneapolis is what, 10-12 times bigger than Providence? And of course, Scottsdale is booming. So is Houston, which has no zoning. NONE. Would you like to live there?

Obviously, things have to be done carefully and done right, but I find your description of NIMBY's as people asking, "wait a second, maybe theres a better way" to be kind of naive...  I attend Wayland Sq association meetings, and I went to those Prov 2020 forums, and most people there aren't saying

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you want to pick a fight over this, fine. I have not once disputed that NIMBY's with their own petty self-interest do not exist, merely that I find it annoying that oftentimes on this board, people voicing objection to something is labeled as knee-jerk NIMBYism, when it is clearly not.

I agree with Recchia.  The vast majority of NIMBY's are just that...  It's fine if it's somewhere else, just not in their neighborhood.  The roudy Mount Hope folks wouldn't be out there demonstrating against Miriam if the hospital decided to build its next building in South Providence, I haven't seen the Wayland Sq folks at city meetings decrying the monstrosity of the Federal Hill condos (several folks I know here are considering moving to them!), and I haven't seen all the high-horse Fox Point folks here in Wayland Sq fighting the 4 floor condos...  Nope, it's really all is NIMBY...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this is just absurd. Its obvious that the impact of all the things you cite above are issues of huge concern locally, and of less concern beyond. I think its pretty damn important for people to get out and let their voices be heard on these local issues, pro and con. Damn, at least people know about it and are out talking about it....

[CtownMikey]

that explains why the "show your city's density" thread has, for the most part, extremely ugly high rises. Providence has a select few in my opinion that are ugly.. and they aren't very tall. Heck, I'd even choose the textron building over most others in this country.

I don't mind the wait.. i'd say it almost always makes for a better visual outsome

[Recchia]

And this is just absurd. Its obvious that the impact of all the things you cite above are issues of huge concern locally, and of less concern beyond. I think its pretty damn important for people to get out and let their voices be heard on these local issues, pro and con. Damn, at least people know about it and are out talking about it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I had meant was that I don't like it when people think something like, oh lets say a landfill, or an LNG plant, or a hospital is okay when it's built someplace else, but absolutely horrid when its built near them. If its not good enough for you, then its not good enough for anyone. But then yet, these things have to go somewhere...

And yes, it is good that people are voicing their opinions, talking about things, etc., but if they're ignorant and have stupid petty complaints because they're being selfish, then they just need to stop because they could be holding back things that are good for all.

And I don't think anyone's picking fights, we're just offering opinions on a worthwhile topic.