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Dallas vs. Minneapolis


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Having lived in Minneapolis for most of my adult life I can confirm that downtown used to be dead at night and on weekends. That has entirely changed in the last five years. There is a huge entertainment district now and downtown is booming.

In fact it has reached an all time high of 30,000 residents and 50 new developments are in the planning/building stages. I would expect 45,000 residents within 10 years.

Hennepin County (where Minneapolis is located) recently passed an indoor smoking ban. In my opionion this has really benefitted the city. In an effort to accomodate smokers huge numbers of bars and restaurants have created outdoor patios. Life on the street has never been better.

One thing to keep in mind about Minneapolis -- not all the action takes place at street level. With the entire downtown connected by skyways, a lot of the pedestrian traffic and stores are located on the second level.

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Having lived in Minneapolis for most of my adult life I can confirm that downtown used to be dead at night and on weekends.  That has entirely changed in the last five years.  There is a huge entertainment district now and downtown is booming. 

In fact it has reached an all time high of 30,000 residents and 50 new developments are in the planning/building stages.  I would expect 45,000 residents within 10 years.

Hennepin County (where Minneapolis is located) recently passed an indoor smoking ban.  In my opionion this has really benefitted the city.  In an effort to accomodate smokers huge numbers of bars and restaurants have created outdoor patios.  Life on the street has never been better.

One thing to keep in mind about Minneapolis -- not all the action takes place at street level.  With the entire downtown connected by skyways, a lot of the pedestrian traffic and stores are located on the second level.

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(The skyways keep people inside so they don't freeze to death. Somewhere along the line, those crafty Minneapolis-people discovered that dead, frosty clients don't spend their money quite as well as those who are alive.... :lol: ). That isn't totally fair though, because Norfolk has many skyways as well and we're mid-Atlantic/Southern.

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Dallas-Ft. Worth's CSA is about 5.8 million while the Twin Cities are about 3.4 million. DFW has 17 Fortune 500 headquarters while MSP has 18 with the bulk of them in downtown Minneapolis. (see http://www.ntc-dfw.org/news/fortunehq.html for the complete list) Per capita, this might contribute to why downtown Minnie does so well in terms of working populations.

In terms of lifestyle, perhaps someone in the know can discuss the downtown Dallas scene (NOT as a "vs" argument with Minneapolis - just as a point of discussion!) I think a lot of people would appreciate an evaluation of how the perception of Dallas translates into the reality of a lively area in which to work or live.

Regarding MSP, the majority of the largest arts organizations in the Twin Cities are in or near downtown Minneapolis - that may be true in Dallas as well (anyone know?). Of the roughly 50 theatre/concert venues in the Twin Cities, easily 15 are located in or on the periphery of downtown Minneapolis. 3 of the Big 4 major league sports are also currently played there. Of course while there are nightclubs and restaurants all over the Twin Cities, there is a very heavy concentration along Hennepin, First and Second Avenues between 1st Street and 10th Street, which plays a very strong role in defining a "downtown lifestyle."

These I think translate into major selling points for the thousands of condominium projects that have sprung up over the last five years in downtown Minnie, which in turn have fed all of the above activities even further.

(Of course, the condo craze could go belly up once interest rates rise and the market is saturated, but the larger downtown population may be sufficient to keep things going for quite a while until the next office boom.)

And the last major factor in defining downtown Minneapolis is one that is often overlooked: Density. Years ago the city tried to make sure that development followed a pattern from the center outward. Clustering office building tightly together helps make the city far more walkable and allows for profitable small businesses to grow among the nooks and crannies of the core city and feed off the office workers. It also allows for the enormous success of the Farmers Market, which operates a "satellite" market along the Nicollet Mall every Thursday.

Of the 27 million square feet of downtown office space, probably 10 million of it is within a six-block cluster. The IDS Tower, Wells Fargo Tower, 221 South Sixth and City Center are all within a block-and-a-half of one another. Linking 3 of these towers along Nicollet are Neiman-Marcus, Saks, Marshall Fields and three shopping malls.

Another major strategy was to build large parking structures in a ring around the core and feed people into the CBD via the skyway system. Overall the plan has worked, though some peripheral parking garages are now being engulfed by the expanding core.

Does Dallas have a comprehensive planning strategy? What are some of its highlights? Do you think it has been successful?

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I've visited Minneapolis a couple of times and like its downtown. But in the next decade, Dallas' downtown should see tremendous growth, if everything goes to plan. Just in the last 18 months since I've moved here, I've seen many changes starting to happen downtown.

Many older office buildings are being rehabbed into mixed-use residential/retail projects, such as the Interurban Building which is the site of downtown's first grocery store in many, many years. It's right across the street from the revamped Power & Light building which is now home to trendy apartments and a new restaurant, Fuse.

Right now, this is just a trickle and downtown can still be dead on weeknights. But it's starting to slowly come alive on weekend nights and several big projects are ramping things up:

1) The massive Victory Park project, Ross Perot Jr.'s multi-million dollar retail/residential/hotel/office development next to American Airlines Center that will include Texas' first W Hotel as well as a Times Square-like plaza that is supposed to act as a civic plaza/meeting plaza/promenade. The first phase is under construction and the W is set to open next summer.

2) The expansion of the arts district that will include the new Dallas Center for the Performing Arts which includes Dee and Charles Wyly Theater (designed by Rem Koolhaas) and the new Winspear Opera House. In the area already are the Nasher Sculpture Center, the Dallas Museum of Art, Meyerson Symphony Hall, Dallas Black Dance Theater, and Arts Magnet High School.

3) Also in the arts district, the Southland Corp (7-11) has announced that they're building One Arts Plaza, a 24-story mixed-used development that will also serve as they're new headquarters.

4) The decking of the Woodall Rogers Freeway, creating a pedestrian connection between the arts district and Victory Park and the lower parts of Uptown.

5) The Trinity River Project, a huge endeavor that many don't think will actually happen but involves bridges designed by Calatrava linking downtown with its southern sector across the river and turning the river into something more along the lines of Austin's Town Lake, not the stank ditch that it is now.

6) The addition of another DART (light-rail) spur through downtown.

7) Finally, this was part of a much larger story that ran in the Dallas Morning News recently, and it underscores the massive interest in downtown and nearby, booming uptown:

Eager developers hope so. But some market analysts and landlords aren't so sure it's time for a building binge in Uptown and the adjoining Arts District.

"In my career, I've never seen anything like this," said John Zogg, senior vice president with Crescent Real Estate Equities, downtown's biggest office landlord. "I don't understand where these developers think the demand for these buildings will come from."

Last year, expanding and relocating tenants leased about 400,000 square feet of additional office space in Uptown and downtown.

A half-dozen office projects in the works for the area could add more than 2 million square feet of office space in the next two years.

The latest announcement came this week.

Houston developer Hines and Ross Perot Jr.'s Hillwood real estate firm unveiled two office towers at the Victory project that will contain about 400,000 square feet in the first phase, called One Victory Park.

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I was in Dallas a couple of years ago on a Monday (normal business day) and was surprised at how empty it was. We decided to go to Nieman Marcus for lunch and I had a choice of about ten empty parking spots on the block right in front of the store. The store itself was empty as was the resturant. The streets also were devoid of traffic or pedestrians. I expected this in Houston but not Dallas. Houston DT actually had slightly more activity then Dallas. My only time in Minneapolis was on a sunday and all the stores were open with good crowds.

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^^ go back in a couple years. You will see a completly different downtown Dallas. The residential population is now starting to rise because most of those vacant office buildings are being renovated. Dallas downtown gets better each year. It was even worse in 2000.

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It's hard to compare the two cities in my opinion. They are completely different, though the downtown stats are pretty close. Minneapolis downtown is one of the most compact ones I've ever seen. The city can only grow so much and then the freeways and the river blocks it off.

Dallas has a much more spread out downtown area with a lot more potential in the future. They still have room to grow in the downtown area so the potential is great. They just need to convince people that its a great place to live in and leave their suburban house with swimming pool behind.

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It's hard to compare the two cities in my opinion.  They are completely different, though the downtown stats are pretty close.  Minneapolis downtown is one of the most compact ones I've ever seen.  The city can only grow so much and then the freeways and the river blocks it off. 

Minneapolis has puposefully designated through zoning a very tight downtown core. There is still pleny of room for growth especially to the East. I suspect, however, that it will be growing up and not out --unlike Dallas which is, as you pointed out, much more spread out.

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Dallas is very different than other cities of similar size. It has a large downtown, but it's not very lively or inviting. Dallas is massive suburbia. The potential is there for a great downtown, but the lack of density and residents in the core downtown hold it back. That could change if some of the empty space would fill in with residential projects. I think the people in the Metroplex enjoy their suburban lifestyles too much, and with so many corporate headquarters located 20 or more miles from the downtown core I just don't see that happening.

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But the companies located in the suburbs and outside the CBD are slowly moving back to downtown because the downtown and uptown population is growing. Dallas is very much so suburban but like you all said. There is potential. However, you're talking about a metro of 6 million people and growing fast. There are bound to be at least a couple hundred thousand that like the urban dense highrising living that comes with downtown. With lightrail's ridership numbers growing and all the residential units popping up all over the downtown and uptown area. i wouldnt say it cant happen because right now. it slowly is.

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Outside of downtown Dallas, north specifically, there are some great things going on.  The new W Hotel and residences is awesome.  Minneapolis needs to cutting edge contemporary architecture like this design.  I'm tired of stone.

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Fine, Minneapolis wins with the CBD - Dallas wins everywhere else.

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Outside of downtown Dallas, north specifically, there are some great things going on.  The new W Hotel and residences is awesome.  Minneapolis needs to cutting edge contemporary architecture like this design.  I'm tired of stone.

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That's the uptown area. But very close to downtown. Basically walking distance. Wait till you see what's going on after the W is built.There will be even a taller tower than that. They are just getting started. That area the W hotel and residences is part of the huge victory park project. I'll try to find a rendering pic of the W later.

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THe only problem with all these contemporary designs is that they will all be outdated in 12 years and people will be thinking "who the heck designed that?"

Currently there's the IVY Hotel project just about to start construction in Minneapolis ivyTowerIllustration.jpg

Hotel + Residence, I believe the hotel partner was just announced to be Westin Hotels.  The projects it incorporating the Old Ivy tower with is nealy 100 years old. Ivy Project

And if you're really looking for modern design, checkout the Nicollet that's planned right downtown minneapolis T0_19530_576442.jpg

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I agree...we have a lot going on and these are both nice designs, but... I'm just a sucker for miamiesque modern....we have too much limestone...the new additions will surely help.

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That second new tower for Minneapolis is simply stunning. I'm a sucker for that type of design---it's fluid and light and just plain gorgeous (from the modern point of view). It looks roughly in the 50-floor area. Anyone have a more-exact count?

Just the same, I like older, art deco architecture as well. Hence me liking NYC and Detroit and the Ohio cities' architecture so much :) I've posted on this before, but I think it's a tossup. Dallas wins in overall city size, but Minneapolis is more compact. Dallas wins in tower heights. Minneapolis perhaps in upcoming projects (it would be cool if people could post pics of the proposed/developing Dallas projects for means of comparison).

These "vs" threads are frustrating. It's like apples and oranges with any major city... -_-

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That second new tower for Minneapolis is simply stunning.  I'm a sucker for that type of design---it's fluid and light and just plain gorgeous (from the modern point of view).  It looks roughly in the 50-floor area.  Anyone have a more-exact count?

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The height right now is set at 650" with 53 floors. It'll make it the 4th tallest building in Minneapolis, one of the talles condos in the U.S. Here's also a renditioning of what it'll look like when done. T0_19530_465843.jpg

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