Upscale Hotels in Northwest Arkansas

[OnDickson]

Actually it's not all the same in the end. The idea behind a TIF district is to encourage development in a blighted area, not just one developer's parcel. If/when the Ren Tower is completed it should spark a economic boom in the downtown area in general and the Mountain and Center Streets in particular. As it is, several businesses have went out of business or moved because of the disruption caused by the construction activity. If the Ren Tower had been completed as first advertised the city would be collecting more than what it is receiving as compensation from Nock's group.

I sincerely hope that the nationwide economic conditions are behind the delay in the project and we can expect a start to the project in the near future.

Good points. Something else that many people forget about this project is the fact that the City of Fayetteville (taxpayers) have already spent a LARGE sum of money to help get this project off of the ground. Remember that the city actually purchased the 4 parcels of land that the project is to sit on (NWANews.com says that cost was $2.61 Million), then agreed to pay almost $900,000.00 to demolish the existing structures and to prepare the site for new construction. The city then sold the land to Nock and Alexander for the whopping sum of $300,000. It doesn't take a mathemetician to see that those numbers don't exactly add up--and I think this is where a lot of the resentment comes from. It's not like the city is just sitting around making money on this deal to the tune of $25,000 a month. Sure the penalty payments help, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to what the taxpayers have already spent on this project.

I'm no fan of sweetheart deals for big money developers, but I want this project done as much as anyojne--it stands to have a dramatic positive impact on my downtown business and properties. But we're approaching 3 years now since the Mountain Inn came down-- it just might be time for the city to look to a different developer to finally get something off the ground here. Remember according to the contract the city has the right to repurchase the property from Nock for only $10,000.00 if any of the design or construction deadlines are missed (and they all have been). Unfortunately, it is painfully apparent that the Renaissance project isn't going to happen as it was planned and from what I'm hearing no one knows exactly how best to proceed--there will likely be several legal issues when this whole mess has to be untangled.

[thewizard16]

I'm not 100 percent on all the facts, but from what I understand, Nock bought The Mountain Inn from an out of state owner back sometime in 03 I think. I'm pretty sure at first that there were plans to renovate it, but it had been closed since the late 90s, and after 9/11 the plans were put aside. In the meantime the place fell apart even more. If it weren't for all the vandals, it might have been much more possible to renovate. I think the consensus was that it would be better to just build a better structure in that spot than try to salvage it. As much as I didn't like seeing an older building go, I'm convinced that one was a lost cause by the time it really got the attention it deserved.

I was thinking he surely owned it before 03 or 9/11 wouldn't have affected the viability of the project. Honestly, I'm not sure how it affected it anyway, that's right around when we bought our house (shortly after 9/11) and we got a great interest rate on a good loan. Anyway, I was reading the original goal was to renovate it to be a Crowne Plaza (would have been nice, that's a good chain and they have some very nice older hotels around, so it would have been iftting), but the plans were put on hold after 9/11. At any rate, there's no use "crying over spilt milk", the building certainly was a disaster area, but considering 99% of what vandals messed up would have had to been torn out to renovate anyway, that shouldn't have affected it. I'm thinking that sitting empty that many years with no upkeep(for a building that old) there was probably significant structural damage/risk of unseen damage that led to an extremely expensive, or difficult, renovation process. (And, as can be seen in that photo album, there were areas of the hotel with moderate to severe fire damage) If I were a developer, I'd have found it a difficult project to justify taking for a franchise hotel, anyway. The Ren. tower project is definitely more adventurous with the renovation of surrounding buildings, but those were mostly in better shape than the Inn was.

At any rate, I'm still curious as to what killed it in the first place, if anyone else knows.

[lethian9]

Good points. Something else that many people forget about this project is the fact that the City of Fayetteville (taxpayers) have already spent a LARGE sum of money to help get this project off of the ground. Remember that the city actually purchased the 4 parcels of land that the project is to sit on (NWANews.com says that cost was $2.61 Million), then agreed to pay almost $900,000.00 to demolish the existing structures and to prepare the site for new construction. The city then sold the land to Nock and Alexander for the whopping sum of $300,000. It doesn't take a mathemetician to see that those numbers don't exactly add up--and I think this is where a lot of the resentment comes from. It's not like the city is just sitting around making money on this deal to the tune of $25,000 a month. Sure the penalty payments help, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to what the taxpayers have already spent on this project.

I'm no fan of sweetheart deals for big money developers, but I want this project done as much as anyojne--it stands to have a dramatic positive impact on my downtown business and properties. But we're approaching 3 years now since the Mountain Inn came down-- it just might be time for the city to look to a different developer to finally get something off the ground here. Remember according to the contract the city has the right to repurchase the property from Nock for only $10,000.00 if any of the design or construction deadlines are missed (and they all have been). Unfortunately, it is painfully apparent that the Renaissance project isn't going to happen as it was planned and from what I'm hearing no one knows exactly how best to proceed--there will likely be several legal issues when this whole mess has to be untangled.

I happened to know for a fact that you are wrong. Fortunately wrong. It is going to happen. Nock and his partners are fronting the 40 million bucks to make it happen, which like you said will help a lot of businesses. What we taxpayers have already spent on this project is a small investment with very large benefits for the downtown economy for many many years to come. So it hasn't come to fruition yet, obviously. I certainly understand the fear that it will never happen, but giving into paranoid speculation does what? Legal issues? Says who? By the way, the 25,000 dollar number was figured by the estimated amount that the hotel would bring the city in tax dollars per month. So like most investments, the city isn't, and never was going to get their money back in one big fat check. It was always going to be in increments similar to what they are paying right now. And I know how ignorant city official too often are, but they would have to be beyond stupid to buy back that land. Then it would sit there forever in this market, because there's not many developers left with the ability to fund jobs that big. So then maybe someone would buy it, at best the city would break even with what we've invested in it. Then what. Now we wait for this new developer to get designs, and get funding, and get permits, and get permissions, and who says that it won't be delayed like the Ren? Yeah, that would do awesome things for my business. Yours too.

[cocothief]

How about beet red

If this were done with metal panels with a cooked-on ceramic finish, a slick beet red building would actually look pretty amazing, especially in contrast to the green of Mount Sequoyah in spring and summer.

[mzweig]

If this were done with metal panels with a cooked-on ceramic finish, a slick beet red building would actually look pretty amazing, especially in contrast to the green of Mount Sequoyah in spring and summer.

That could be really cool, Coco! You have some imagination!

M

[acx_guy]

I happened to know for a fact that you are wrong. Fortunately wrong. It is going to happen. Nock and his partners are fronting the 40 million bucks to make it happen, which like you said will help a lot of businesses. What we taxpayers have already spent on this project is a small investment with very large benefits for the downtown economy for many many years to come. So it hasn't come to fruition yet, obviously. I certainly understand the fear that it will never happen, but giving into paranoid speculation does what? Legal issues? Says who? By the way, the 25,000 dollar number was figured by the estimated amount that the hotel would bring the city in tax dollars per month. So like most investments, the city isn't, and never was going to get their money back in one big fat check. It was always going to be in increments similar to what they are paying right now. And I know how ignorant city official too often are, but they would have to be beyond stupid to buy back that land. Then it would sit there forever in this market, because there's not many developers left with the ability to fund jobs that big. So then maybe someone would buy it, at best the city would break even with what we've invested in it. Then what. Now we wait for this new developer to get designs, and get funding, and get permits, and get permissions, and who says that it won't be delayed like the Ren? Yeah, that would do awesome things for my business. Yours too.

This has been a very long delay that is obviously costing him money every day the hotel is not open. I have a hard time believing the reason for the delay still has to do with interior/architectural decisions between Marriott and him.

Has there been any speculation that the delays could be caused by a lack of financing due to the lack of demand for those condos that were going to be on the upper floors? Is he waiting out this downturn, hoping the condo demand picks up and he can pre-sell units before starting construction? Just seems like a similar scenario to condo towers in other major cities. Big plans, do a lot of pre-sells, break ground, then stop b/c the market fell out and they can't and the banks won't commit more money without the demand?

[mzweig]

I happened to know for a fact that you are wrong. Fortunately wrong. It is going to happen. Nock and his partners are fronting the 40 million bucks to make it happen, which like you said will help a lot of businesses. What we taxpayers have already spent on this project is a small investment with very large benefits for the downtown economy for many many years to come. So it hasn't come to fruition yet, obviously. I certainly understand the fear that it will never happen, but giving into paranoid speculation does what? Legal issues? Says who? By the way, the 25,000 dollar number was figured by the estimated amount that the hotel would bring the city in tax dollars per month. So like most investments, the city isn't, and never was going to get their money back in one big fat check. It was always going to be in increments similar to what they are paying right now. And I know how ignorant city official too often are, but they would have to be beyond stupid to buy back that land. Then it would sit there forever in this market, because there's not many developers left with the ability to fund jobs that big. So then maybe someone would buy it, at best the city would break even with what we've invested in it. Then what. Now we wait for this new developer to get designs, and get funding, and get permits, and get permissions, and who says that it won't be delayed like the Ren? Yeah, that would do awesome things for my business. Yours too.

Sorry to be disagreeable, but last I heard from my sources who are "in-the-know," Nock and his partners are not fronting $40 million of THEIR money. They are looking for someone to lend it to them--they need multiple banks--and have not gotten that nailed down yet. They are looking to borrow the money. True--they will be on the hook for it--but it is borrowed money (or most of it is). Money is the hang-up on the project, plain and simple.

M

[thewizard16]

Sorry to be disagreeable, but last I heard from my sources who are "in-the-know," Nock and his partners are not fronting $40 million of THEIR money. They are looking for someone to lend it to them--they need multiple banks--and have not gotten that nailed down yet. They are looking to borrow the money. True--they will be on the hook for it--but it is borrowed money (or most of it is). Money is the hang-up on the project, plain and simple.

M

I have to wonder where $40 million of "their" money would come from anyway, to be honest. They're on the hook for some large and extremely expensive projects already, and some of them have not been leasing or selling as quickly as anticipated. I never doubted that they'd have to borrow the money to build it, but I had hoped that was all lined up and ready to go, considering the complexity of arranging the agreement with the hotel corporation and getting the project moving in the first place. At any rate, I remain optomistic. Nock and AMA have impressed me with the way they've stuck to their schedule on the Lofts at Underwood, and I don't think the group would be taking a $25,000 a month hit on the crane site (regardless of the deal they got on the property) if they didn't truly believe it was worth keeping up. My feelings were if they thought it was going to take an extended period of time to get financing, or if they wanted out of the project all together, they would take the crane down and promise to put it back up later.

[THE_HITMAN]

Has there been any speculation that the delays could be caused by a lack of financing due to the lack of demand for those condos that were going to be on the upper floors? Is he waiting out this downturn, hoping the condo demand picks up and he can pre-sell units before starting construction? Just seems like a similar scenario to condo towers in other major cities. Big plans, do a lot of pre-sells, break ground, then stop b/c the market fell out and they can't and the banks won't commit more money without the demand?

I heard that the condos have been spoken for already..... I belive the hold up is in a few finacing processes.

[thewizard16]

I heard that the condos have been spoken for already..... I belive the hold up is in a few finacing processes.

Not to offend, but I find that somewhat hard to believe. They've only sold two of the One East condos, and Legacy is mostly empty (though there are other reasons for that as well). People aren't jumping up for the expensive condos as hypothesized. The only reason the Ren. Tower would have a sales advantage is it's height... your views would be amazing. I do believe that financing approval is most likely the cause of delay, but I find it unlikely that all or most of the condos have been sold, and if they were pre-sold or pre-leased, it's likely that the buyers would have the right to withdraw from the agreement if things are considerably behind schedule, which they are.

[mzweig]

I have to wonder where $40 million of "their" money would come from anyway, to be honest. They're on the hook for some large and extremely expensive projects already, and some of them have not been leasing or selling as quickly as anticipated. I never doubted that they'd have to borrow the money to build it, but I had hoped that was all lined up and ready to go, considering the complexity of arranging the agreement with the hotel corporation and getting the project moving in the first place. At any rate, I remain optomistic. Nock and AMA have impressed me with the way they've stuck to their schedule on the Lofts at Underwood, and I don't think the group would be taking a $25,000 a month hit on the crane site (regardless of the deal they got on the property) if they didn't truly believe it was worth keeping up. My feelings were if they thought it was going to take an extended period of time to get financing, or if they wanted out of the project all together, they would take the crane down and promise to put it back up later.

All good points, Wiz, though I don't think Nock has anything to do with Lofts at Underwood. AMA does, but not Nock, unless I am mistaken,

M

[Mith242]

Right now I think all we can do is speculate. I think one thing that has hurt a number of developments in the area has been the large increase of costs. I think a number of projects that were planned a couple of years ago has early estimates that rose dramatically once construction actually began. Just speculating but I can imagine a big project like this will end up costing a whole lot more than those original estimates. Either way I'm still hopeful that this project will get moving. You'd think that Nock still thinks it's possible or else why would he keep sinking money into it. Spring isn't that far away and I think that's when we'll have a better idea of what's going on. If construction doesn't start progressing this Spring then I would imagine the city is going to look into the situation a lot more closely to figure out what's going on. I'm wondering, at what point will people say enough's enough though. Would the city give up and give the land to another developer who might only build something 3-4 stories that won't have a big impact on the city? Anyway I think quite a few people will be keeping an eye on this in the next couple of months to see what happens construction-wise.

[thewizard16]

All good points, Wiz, though I don't think Nock has anything to do with Lofts at Underwood. AMA does, but not Nock, unless I am mistaken,

M

I thought I saw his Nock Investments logo on the sign, but at any rate, according to AMA's website "The Lofts at Underwood Plaza is a powerful collaboration among some of the community

[mzweig]

I thought I saw his Nock Investments logo on the sign, but at any rate, according to AMA's website "The Lofts at Underwood Plaza is a powerful collaboration among some of the community

[shaddo]

I stand corrected then about Nock and the Underwood project. I thought it was only AMA and Belden with Underwood on that one. You are right--their costs went up dramatically on the Ren, but that was all known a long while back. Maybe they are too ambitious? Maybe it didn't need to be a Marriott hotel and it could have been smaller. Maybe the condos are killing the ability to get it financed. Who knows for sure....?

M

It is more than that, day-to-day management of the Underwoods Loft development project is actually being run out of Nock's office...the same development management team that recently completed the Metro District Lofts (formerly Spring St. Lofts).

[masons_dad1]

I agree that all this talk is just speculation, but maybe the reason the Ren is not happening as fast as most would like is because Fayetteville may just not be ready for a building of this magnitude. The city's population is still under 99K pop and the Ren is something more common to cities in the 200K pop and up range. I look at developments in the St. Petersburg, FL area because that is such a happening place with a pop of 250K with an overall metro pop of 1.5M. Small cities shouldn't expect the same kind of developments found in those bigger cities.

The reason the Lofts is going forward as expected is simply because it's more expected for the pop. The Ren is too ambitious for a pop under 99K.

Hey it beats speculation.

[das450]

Wow - I sure did spark a lot of conversation concerning this issue. I do know that the Arkansas Coaches Clinic which had the Cosmo as the host hotel for the conference is looking for another location. Is this a big deal ??? Below is an article from June 2002 concerning the 2002 conference. Obviously, this has grown since then. I know of at least two other events that have pulled out of the Cosmo. At the end of the day let me say this. I was given good information from someone who has spoken with upper management at the Cosmo and either the management was telling stories or my contact is a liar. If I am wrong I will apologize, time will tell.

Here is a link I found at http://ahsaa.org/docs/Bull0208_Layout%201.pdf

The Arkansas High School Coaches Association Clinic will be held June 18-20, 2008, at the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Fayetteville. Several Arkansas High School coaches and college coaches will be featured speakers during the week.

U OF A DIVISION OF CONTINUING EDUCATION TO HOST ANNUAL COACHES CLINIC

About 1,700 Arkansas high school coaches are convening in

Fayetteville through June 21 for the Arkansas Activities Association

47th Annual All-Star Week and Coaches Clinic. The Clinic is being

held at the UA Center for Continuing Education, which boasts about

13,000 square feet of meeting and exhibit space.

Athletic notables include Houston Nutt, Stan Heath, and Gary Blair

of the University of Arkansas, Roy Williams of the University of

Kansas, and Sherri Coale of the University of Oklahoma will conduct

clinics for Arkansas high school coaches.

The Coaches Clinic is being hosted by Dick Johnson, Fayetteville

High School athletics director, and is expected to bring

approximately $4 million to the Fayetteville area.

The activity and coaching clinic schedules will be available at

http://www.ahsaa.org/. If you have questions about activities to be

held at the Center for Continuing Education, please contact Jim

Burgin or Mary Beth Lohr, (479) 575-3604. Questions about the

overall activity schedule should be directed to Dick Johnson at (479)

973-8680.

[lethian9]

Wow - I sure did spark a lot of conversation concerning this issue. I do know that the Arkansas Coaches Clinic which had the Cosmo as the host hotel for the conference is looking for another location. Is this a big deal ??? Below is an article from June 2002 concerning the 2002 conference. Obviously, this has grown since then. I know of at least two other events that have pulled out of the Cosmo. At the end of the day let me say this. I was given good information from someone who has spoken with upper management at the Cosmo and either the management was telling stories or my contact is a liar. If I am wrong I will apologize, time will tell.

Don't flatter yourself. And yes, your "contact" is a liar. Or the management is telling stories. I guarentee you I've got contacts who know more about it than someone who had a conversation with Cosmo management.

[THE_HITMAN]

All good points, Wiz, though I don't think Nock has anything to do with Lofts at Underwood. AMA does, but not Nock, unless I am mistaken,

M

Look at the sign on the building, it says Nock pretty clear on there. In the last article in the paper he was listed as one of the owners with Richard Alexander, Rob Merry-Ship, and Mr. Underwoods himself.

[Mith242]

Before anyone gets upset, I didn't delete any posts. But I did move some over to the Renaissance topic. It seems to be one of the major things being discussed and it makes sense to have it going on in that topic. But if anyone has a problem with it let me know.

[Mith242]

Maybe I just missed this. I knew they had been remodeling the Cosmopolitan. But I didn't realize they were converting the first two floors. The first floor will be converted over to retail and office space. The second floor is being converted to condos. Did I just miss this in all the renovation news or is this some new details?

[mzweig]

Maybe I just missed this. I knew they had been remodeling the Cosmopolitan. But I didn't realize they were converting the first two floors. The first floor will be converted over to retail and office space. The second floor is being converted to condos. Did I just miss this in all the renovation news or is this some new details?

That is interesting info. This was not in the original plan that I saw for this hotel at all--they had a bar on the first floor with a new lobby, and no condos mentioned at all. I hope this works out for them.

M.

[Mith242]

That is interesting info. This was not in the original plan that I saw for this hotel at all--they had a bar on the first floor with a new lobby, and no condos mentioned at all. I hope this works out for them.

M.

Okay, I was wondering if I had overlooked something. I don't have any problem with a floor being converted into condos. Does seem a bit odd on the timing right now. Also seems that in most cases it's the upper floors that are condos not the lower ones. But still I hope it works out for them.

[shaddo]

Maybe I just missed this. I knew they had been remodeling the Cosmopolitan. But I didn't realize they were converting the first two floors. The first floor will be converted over to retail and office space. The second floor is being converted to condos. Did I just miss this in all the renovation news or is this some new details?

The plans are posted in the construction office at The Cosmopolitan. There are no plans for to convert the lower two floors to retail, condos or office lease space. Instead the lobby/reception area is being expanded on the first floor, absorbing the current hotel executive offices. Replacement exec. offices have been completed in the space which used to be leased by the radio stations. On the second floor, plans do call for a new lounge/library with fireplace/books and an upscale glass and steel modern bar ("The Cube") extending over the pool area. Consideration is being given for specialty spa services as well on the third floor. All other meeting space and common areas are to remain intact.

[Mith242]

The plans are posted in the construction office at The Cosmopolitan. There are no plans for to convert the lower two floors to retail, condos or office lease space. Instead the lobby/reception area is being expanded on the first floor, absorbing the current hotel executive offices. Replacement exec. offices have been completed in the space which used to be leased by the radio stations. On the second floor, plans do call for a new lounge/library with fireplace/books and an upscale glass and steel modern bar ("The Cube") extending over the pool area. Consideration is being given for specialty spa services as well on the third floor. All other meeting space and common areas are to remain intact.

Hmmm...either the plans have changed or the local newspapers got some bad info. That's where I got the info about the first floor being converted to retail/office space and the second floor being condos.