Upscale Hotels in Northwest Arkansas

[shaddo]

I doubt very much that this is true. In addition to the comments provided by the people that rushed to defend it, I think it's more likely that they have had to cancel events that likely shouldn't have been scheduled in the first place due to their renovation timeline. It is however, very likely that they're not turning a profit right now, and that's prefectly normal during a large renovation on a large and expensive building. I don't think Nock would have started this redevelopment if he didn't have the funding secured to ensure he could hold on to it until the end of renovations, though, he knew it was going to be costly, and he certainly spent enough buying the place. At any rate, I think it'll be a few more months at least before it's fully open again and making some decent income, but I doubt it's "going under". It simply doesn't make any sense given the situation.

I agree with your analysis completely. You have given a simple viewpoint based upon a probable reality versus speculative negativity. Very commendable. I've noticed that "assuming the worst" seems to be a national past-time. Usually this is a sign that the market is near a bottom.

[shaddo]

I think the fact that John Nock still has so many projects going in such a volatile market is a testament to his ability to do what Barber couldn't, which is survive. I know I don't have all the information, but it seems like all his projects are moving forward at a pretty decent pace. I'm sure that the Renaissance is close to starting.

Interesting observation Lethian9. Ever notice every day there is activity going on downtown on one development project or another? No one will remember when they are all complete how long they took but they will see for decades to come the impact of these multiple projects on our downtown. I'm reminded of the saying: "Still water runs deep".

[mzweig]

Welcome to the forum Lethian9. That is a good point, Nock is still going while others aren't. Really I think the only problem I've heard about him is just how long it's taken the Renaissance to get going. It's a project that a lot of people have been looking forward to and seeing how other developments have disappeared without even any construction ever taking place. I just think there's a lot of concerns and fears that the Renaissance won't ever happen.

I like John a lot but there are other projects that are dragging on and on. All of their projects downtown are dragging. The Ren, the Bank of America Building, Ball Plaza, Smokey Row, et al are all incomplete at this point. John needs to FINISH something.

Mark

[shaddo]

I like John a lot but there are other projects that are dragging on and on. All of their projects downtown are dragging. The Ren, the Bank of America Building, Ball Plaza, Smokey Row, et al are all incomplete at this point. John needs to FINISH something.

Mark

Hmmm...I understand that the condos on the Bank of America are fully FINISHED. Now, work is commencing on the ground floor turning then into boutique retail spaces. On smokey row Mariachis is up and running, Cravens condos are complete and Center Court Square is substantially finished as well. The new glass on EJ Ball looks refreshing and looks like it is nearly finished. Still, I agree, I wish these investments in our downtown went faster.

All of these projects will add much to the experience of our downtown, especially when the Cosmopolitan renovation is complete and when Ren. Tower is a reality. Five years from now it should be a thriving "experience economy" with retail, residential, office, hospitality, parking decks, and art venues.

[thewizard16]

The interior decor doesn't look bad at all. It's just too bad they couldn't convert all the guest rooms into suites like the Embassy Hotel in Rogers.

That would have been nice, but might not have been cost effective. Speaking of that, this weekend was the first time I'd been to Embassy in years, and I was impressed. Their addition is quite nice and has some interesting design elements, and the main tower's rooms are very nice. The people I was visiting had a corner suite, so it was a little bigger to say the least, but it left me with a very good impression of that hotel. Prices really aren't bad either once you consider every room is, as you pointed out, a suite now. I'll definitely recommend embassy to people I have coming in to visit, anyway.

[masons_dad1]

Good idea aesthetically but functionally improbable. The elevators are actually in the interior core of the building. The "shafts" you mention are the fire stair towers. By code these must "fire-rated". The new clean white color however, does minimize the massing of these elements.

I've never seen those shafts on any other building in any city and they're just not appealing to me. Maybe if they were a different color or maybe even a nice artistic mural they wouldn't look like some kind of industrial towers or something.

[THE_HITMAN]

I've never seen those shafts on any other building in any city and they're just not appealing to me. Maybe if they were a different color or maybe even a nice artistic mural they wouldn't look like some kind of industrial towers or something.

Those shafts for elevators and or the fire escape stairs are on alot of buildings(i.e. BofA, E.J. Ball....) It all really depends on when the building was designed and built and the safty reqirements at the time. I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Pay a little more attention to the taller buildings in town and you will see the roof fire access.

[Mith242]

Those shafts for elevators and or the fire escape stairs are on alot of buildings(i.e. BofA, E.J. Ball....) It all really depends on when the building was designed and built and the safty reqirements at the time. I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Pay a little more attention to the taller buildings in town and you will see the roof fire access.

Welcome to the forum.

[THE_HITMAN]

I heard the same thing- the detailing should soften the starkness of it. I think because it's such a change from the beige it will take time to get used to. It does look nice and clean though.

Totally agree, The new color is Crisp and clean, it defantly lightens up fayetteville's skyline.....Incase no one has noticed almost all of the buildings in Fayetteville that are visable in the skyline are the same boring tan color. It's about time something was done to liven the palce up. Having lived in other parts of the world, you get exposed to new ideas for buildings and such. For example in Sao Paulo down in Brasil, it is rare to see buildings all the same brick color. I think the new Cosmo finish is a much needed improvement for Fayetteville.

[mzweig]

Hmmm...I understand that the condos on the Bank of America are fully FINISHED. Now, work is commencing on the ground floor turning then into boutique retail spaces. On smokey row Mariachis is up and running, Cravens condos are complete and Center Court Square is substantially finished as well. The new glass on EJ Ball looks refreshing and looks like it is nearly finished. Still, I agree, I wish these investments in our downtown went faster.

All of these projects will add much to the experience of our downtown, especially when the Cosmopolitan renovation is complete and when Ren. Tower is a reality. Five years from now it should be a thriving "experience economy" with retail, residential, office, hospitality, parking decks, and art venues.

NONE of these projects is complete. Just because some condos are done but the rest of the building isn't, or one tenant is in a multi-tenant building it doesn't mean the project is finished. Again, I love John. He has vision. But I am a redeveloper on a small scale myself, and I finish everything I start.

M

[THE_HITMAN]

NONE of these projects is complete. Just because some condos are done but the rest of the building isn't, or one tenant is in a multi-tenant building it doesn't mean the project is finished. Again, I love John. He has vision. But I am a redeveloper on a small scale myself, and I finish everything I start.

M

YES, "small scale"......try taking on some projects the size of the ones he is doing. Plus I believe John Nock to be someone who finishes things that he starts.

[masons_dad1]

Those shafts for elevators and or the fire escape stairs are on alot of buildings(i.e. BofA, E.J. Ball....) It all really depends on when the building was designed and built and the safty reqirements at the time. I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Pay a little more attention to the taller buildings in town and you will see the roof fire access.

I'll agree that it has more to do with the design of the building than anything else and when the Cosmo was built design was probably subordinate to cost. I spent a good portion of my childhood living in highrise apartments in NYC and from my 14th floor window I could see a lot of old buildings and none of them had anything resembling the Cosmo's stairwell shafts. But then most highrise buildings back then were pretty plain and were featureless if not for the windows.

[slyder1]

I just find it hard to believe that a building in plain white would make a skyline look anymore interesting than it already did... espeacialy in Fayetteville's case. If they are going for modern they could have used a mcuh better color palet than plain white. It is very bland and harsh to the eye. They did not put enough thought into it. If this happened in Springfield there would be an out roar of critisim against it.

[shaddo]

I just find it hard to believe that a building in plain white would make a skyline look anymore interesting than it already did... espeacialy in Fayetteville's case. If they are going for modern they could have used a mcuh better color palet than plain white. It is very bland and harsh to the eye. They did not put enough thought into it. If this happened in Springfield there would be an out roar of critisim against it.

Architecturally speaking, "white" is a favorite of many modernist. Richard Meier uses it extensively. He is known in the architect world as member of the "Five Whites" or "New York Five". The other four architects involved in the movement include Peter Eisenman, John Hejduk, Michael Graves and Charles Gwathney. Their work was inspired by another great modernist Le Corbusier and drew from other "less is more" ideas of Mies Van der Rohe. White in a modern context is often used for its simple and clean inspiration vs. unneccesary color.

White doesn't work on every building but it does on this one.

[cocothief]

I'll agree that it has more to do with the design of the building than anything else and when the Cosmo was built design was probably subordinate to cost. I spent a good portion of my childhood living in highrise apartments in NYC and from my 14th floor window I could see a lot of old buildings and none of them had anything resembling the Cosmo's stairwell shafts. But then most highrise buildings back then were pretty plain and were featureless if not for the windows.

I just went back and looked at my picture and figured out what you were talking about.

This is a weird looking building now that you mention it.

Pretty interesting discussion.

[thewizard16]

Architecturally speaking, "white" is a favorite of many modernist. Richard Meier uses it extensively. He is known in the architect world as member of the "Five Whites" or "New York Five". The other four architects involved in the movement include Peter Eisenman, John Hejduk, Michael Graves and Charles Gwathney. Their work was inspired by another great modernist Le Corbusier and drew from other "less is more" ideas of Mies Van der Rohe. White in a modern context is often used for its simple and clean inspiration vs. unneccesary color.

White doesn't work on every building but it does on this one.

White isn't terrible on the Cosmo, but as someone with a decent view of downtown, I preferred the way it looked in tan or beige or whatever you want to call it. The white looks like Kilz primer than you use to drown out other colors, and it lacks any real style whatsoever. I'm hoping once they have the whole thing done it'll tie together better.

Now, add some stainless steel or brushed aluminum accents on parts of the hotel (especially around the entrance, maybe in those grooves they've made on the side) and that could look interesting. Of course, it might look terrible as a finished product, it just sounds interesting in my head.

[THE_HITMAN]

White isn't terrible on the Cosmo, but as someone with a decent view of downtown, I preferred the way it looked in tan or beige or whatever you want to call it. The white looks like Kilz primer than you use to drown out other colors, and it lacks any real style whatsoever. I'm hoping once they have the whole thing done it'll tie together better.

Now, add some stainless steel or brushed aluminum accents on parts of the hotel (especially around the entrance, maybe in those grooves they've made on the side) and that could look interesting. Of course, it might look terrible as a finished product, it just sounds interesting in my head.

I belove those groves were there already and they were painted a grey inside of them so the squares on the side of the building are mor defined. Also they have installed tile around the pillars and entrance where the cars pull through. When the builing is done it will look great! I enjoy looking at it everyday as I drive up 540 from greenland, It brings a new light to the town.

[lethian9]

NONE of these projects is complete. Just because some condos are done but the rest of the building isn't, or one tenant is in a multi-tenant building it doesn't mean the project is finished. Again, I love John. He has vision. But I am a redeveloper on a small scale myself, and I finish everything I start.

M

Did you ever pause to think that in a development such as the ones that John Nock takes on, there could possibly be a thousand more complications and roadblocks to get past than your "small" developments? Maybe you do finish what you start, but a "small scale" project is going to have a much smaller timetable, isn't it? It would take lot less vision, a lot less brains, and a lot less guts to do the projects you do. When it's all over with, your projects will literally be dwarfed in the shadow of John Nock's projects. Ever think about that? Maybe instead of pointing your finger at someone who at least appears to me to be the most prominent developer in the downtown area, you should think about something constructive, like how you could attempt to tackle a big project for once. Besides, your arguement is unfounded anyway. Nock's finished a lot of projects. The Fulbright Building, Craven's Condos, the condos above Taste of Thai, Mariachis, the Condos on the Bank of America. Those have been done for a long time, you can't say that because the entire building isn't finished that he doesn't finish things! That's absurd. From what I can tell they still had tenets renting the offices below those condos as recently as last month, so how could they have finished the building when they most likely had obligations to those tenets? And the Cosmo interior was only really started in December. I'm sure you're comments aren't motivated by the fact that John Nock is a competitor.

[lethian9]

I just find it hard to believe that a building in plain white would make a skyline look anymore interesting than it already did... espeacialy in Fayetteville's case. If they are going for modern they could have used a mcuh better color palet than plain white. It is very bland and harsh to the eye. They did not put enough thought into it. If this happened in Springfield there would be an out roar of critisim against it.

Okay, well maybe you missed the previous skyline while you were in Springfield. There's not a resident in their right state of mind who saw it before and after who could say that it's not at least a massive improvement. I'm curious, what color would you have suggested for modern? How about beet red, or I know, how about hot magenta or purple pizzazz? Before, that building was just another stain in a skyline that was desperate for something beyond the typical. Right now, in this town, in this area, they achieved that in my opinion.

[thewizard16]

Leviathan, calm down. The personal attacks against Mark are unnecessary and childish. He didn't mean any offense to Nock (who you're defending with an irrational fervor, no one here is attacking Nock, but we, along with the majority of people in the city of Fayetteville, have to be cautious considering the lack of information the community has received from him on certain projects of his that seem to have stalled). That said, your attacks don't even make sense. mzweig and Nock aren't even close to being direct competitors. They both have their job markets, have both been doing quite well in their fields, and your belittling of Mark's work and profession is insulting to him, as well as others I'm sure. It's not your attack on him that offends me personally, but your high school-ish attitude that since he's not on the football team he's insignficant. (Yes, that was a metaphor, but I couldn't think of a better one. My point is the attitude mocks all of us that aren't big enough developers or managers to satisfy you, and mocks the happiness that people like Mark find in their work. Please be more mature and rational in the future.) To defend him a little, if you don't think mzweig has vision, you've cleared never seen the work he's done with what many people would have considered a total loss (as far as buildings go). At any rate, that's not the point. The point is no one here was attacking Nock, just commenting that nothing's been finished, even the projects which, by any commercial timeline, should have at least shown some visible progress in the last several months to year, and we're concerned he's spread himself a bit thin, if not financially, at least in what he can manage to keep up with all at once. I think most people here like Nock, and I'd say most of us are thrilled with the Lofts at Underwood, but the criticisms brought up I feel were well founded. If you have a personal relationship with him (sorry for the speculation, but you've been testy about this to say the least), please read these posts clearer to see that we were not insulting the man.

As far as the color, once again, there's no need to be rude and mocking about our views that a plain white slab sided building isn't the most attractive thing on the skyline. Yes, many of us probably liked it when it was tan, which you apparently didn't, but that's not why we complained about white. No one was saying a more extreme color was needed, just something that perhaps looked a bit more refined. At the core of the idea, that building is NOT a modern looking building, it's a relatively generic looking building of a decade past that you can find similar ones in any city, and changing the color to white doesn't really make it look any more modern, but that's just my personal criticism. I'm waiting until more detail work and the final painting on the sides is done before I pass final judgement.

[Mith242]

The color of the Cosmopolitan basically comes down to personal preference. Some people like the white and some people obviously don't. I think the biggest thing for me is that it's just a change from what I'm used to seeing. I don't think I'd say the white color bothers me, but I like a lot of earth tones so the tan color seemed good to me. If it had been white originally and we were all used to it, then maybe there wouldn't even be a discussion.

[Mith242]

As far as Nock is concerned, I'd also say I think overall most people are just concerned about getting these developments. I can't speak for everyone but I certainly don't have a problem of Nock or think anything bad about him. I just get a bit skiddish and worry about projects like the Renaissance because it's taking so long to get the real construction going. I think some people feel a bit burned because of a number of other projects falling through and their worried about some of the current projects Nock is working on. I've been worried that Nock might be overextending himself with so many projects going on at the same time. But hey if he have all this going on and have the Renaissance started this Spring then I'm all for him. But let me also say this. If the Renaissance doesn't get going by Spring I think people should rightfully wonder and question just what's going on. I want to see the Renaissance just as much as everyone else. But I don't think this is exactly what the city had in mind when they signed on. While the city is collecting money on it, having this project in limbo for a longer period of time is hurting business in the immediate area. If the city had known it was going to take this long they might have opted for someone else who would have built something more quickly. But still I'm rooting for Nock to get this completed and think the Renaissance would be a great addition to the city and the downtown in particular. I haven't seen any problems from his past developments. So I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[lethian9]

No personal offense was meant to "Mark". How was what I said any different than what he said? He's making attacks that aren't fact based, isn't that all I did? How'd it get personal all of a sudden? Until just a minute ago I had no idea who he even was. I looked at a website with some of his projects, and you know what, it looks pretty good. I don't mean to belittle smaller developments and the impact they have in our community, however, to compare what he does to the scale of what Nock and others are doing, and imply that it's just as easy to start and finish an 18 story 40 million dollar project as it is to go get a 100,000 dollar loan, doesn't make sense. I just get really tired of all the negative speculation that flies through here all the time. It's bad for our market here, and it stirs fears that are unfounded. We can't expect developers to tell us every detail about what is going on behind the scenes. Certainly there are valid fears, bacause of the large amount of bankrupt developers and the developments they left behind, but I look at it this way, anyone who thinks that the Ren isn't going up: why would Nock be paying for the crane to stay there? And paying the City fees on top of that? Don't you think that if there was any bit of concern that it might never happen, he would take the crane down in the meantime? The last thing I read is that he said it's going to happen. I would imagine if it wasn't he would start preparing us all for that blow. People spouting negative remarks with nothing but speculation do our city a disservice, and should know how it feels a little bit. Someone mentioned that Nock was buying up Barber's projects, anyone know which ones?

[zman9810]

The reason there is so much speculation about the Ren Tower project is that the timeline has changed so many times and so drasticly and it is still just a hole in the ground. It's a very visible project that the City of Fayetteville and taxpayers have a direct stake in because of the TIF district. Nock should expect heightened scrutiny and discussion about it and also about his other projects as they may affect his abilty to complete the Ren Tower.

[Mith242]

The reason there is so much speculation about the Ren Tower project is that the timeline has changed so many times and so drasticly and it is still just a hole in the ground. It's a very visible project that the City of Fayetteville and taxpayers have a direct stake in because of the TIF district. Nock should expect heightened scrutiny and discussion about it and also about his other projects as they may affect his abilty to complete the Ren Tower.

Good point about the TIF. I didn't mention that earlier.

Someone mentioned that Nock was buying up Barber's projects, anyone know which ones?

I don't remember if anyone actually directly said he was going to buy up some of the Barber projects. I was thinking it was more just speculating because Nock seems to have his hand in a lot of projects around the city. Barber has already had to turn over or sell some projects. As many problems as he seems to have I think many people think he'll have to sell off even more.