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Upscale Hotels in Northwest Arkansas


Mith242

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I still stand by my original comments concerning the Cosmo going downhill. Only time will tell. Where does Nock's money come from ???? I hear only one of the BOA condos have sold.

I responded to your last blast of nonesense about the Cosmo because I knew it was off-base. After your last comment I decided to follow your other posts and found something very interesting. In just the last 10 posts you had 13 negative "gloom and doom" remarks of some pending bad omen to reveal or relish in. I quote them here:

#1

I still stand by my original comments concerning the Cosmo going downhill. Only time will tell. Where does Nock's money come from ???? I hear only one of the BOA condos have sold.

#2

Word on the Street is that Cosmopolitan is going under. They have started to cancel future banquets and other events. They ae in the hole. This is bad news and I hope its not true.

#3

La Maison des Tartes in Fayetteville has closed. http://thefiveforty.com/la-maison-des-tart...-as-we-type.php

#4

When is ROTC closing ? It is open currently and the person I spoke to who works there advised they are not closing. Does someone have some other info on this ?

#5

Shanghai in Fayetteville near Poplar and College has closed. They have been struggling for a while and they finally had to close.

#6

608 West Dickson is also up for sale (Former location of Mr. Tux). I suspect the project that was planned fell through.

1.5 Million for the property.

517005 MLS

#7

Dickson Street Area Problems:

Official For Sale Properties:

Tony C's College Inn is For Sale (off of West Avenue) as well as his coffee shop on Garland. Signs on the building say so.

Blu on West Avenue is For Sale. MLS 515941

CLub 414 is for sale and will be made into a Pizza Place.

Another Bar is for sale which is 990 Square Feet and a confidentiality agreement is required to view it

MLS: 511359

Rumor has it that On the Rocks is on its way to market as well.

Anyone have any info on these projects ????

#8

Excavators Partially Paid For Grandview Heights Work]

Developers to sell 40 more units before getting more financing

#9

The Sonic Drive-in at 1680 N. College Ave. in Fayetteville has closed. http://nwanews.com/nwat/News/58805/

How long before the Brazillian restaurant closes near Olive Garden, that place never has any business.

#10

Anyone know what happened to this team ? One year and gone. I believe NW Arkansas has enough sport teams currently and needs to hold off on anything new especially with the Naturals starting next year.

Close quote.

I defend your right to be negative and a "doomsday" prophet but I fail to see how this is good for our market. In several of the predictions I see no actual facts referenced or verified. Again, How does this make our piece of the Urban Planet better?

Oh and for the record. I have friends who live in the BOA condos and I can assure you they do not all live in the same unit. Please, check your facts.

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I still stand by my original comments concerning the Cosmo going downhill. Only time will tell. Where does Nock's money come from ???? I hear only one of the BOA condos have sold.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People saying negative things with no real facts or sources make no sense and just spread unecessary concerns. Who says it's going under? Like someone said before, I'm sure the developers/investors took into consideration the impact of construction on revenue. A friend of mine works on Center St., and told me that one or maybe more of the Craven's Condos sold? Has anyone else heard anything like that?

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The reason there is so much speculation about the Ren Tower project is that the timeline has changed so many times and so drasticly and it is still just a hole in the ground. It's a very visible project that the City of Fayetteville and taxpayers have a direct stake in because of the TIF district. Nock should expect heightened scrutiny and discussion about it and also about his other projects as they may affect his abilty to complete the Ren Tower.

I'm not saying Nock shouldn't expect tough questions, it has taken longer than all of us hoped it would, but I really think it is going to happen. I would say that if the crane came down then we all might have reason to wonder if it's going to happen. Good point on the taxpayers stake in the project. However, I'm pretty sure that it's all the same in the end. Last I saw Nock was still paying the city 25 grand a month. So, as it stands aren't the taxpayers and the city already seeing dollar signs? As far as scrutiny spreading from the Ren to Nock's other jobs, I don't really see it. It seems to me that all of his jobs are either in full swing or finished. I'm extremely excited to see the Ren start, I think a little more patience on all our parts will pay off pretty soon.

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I think these newcomers are right. We should only post positive and reassuring comments about NWA developments. Any negative comments about developers or business closings, whether true or not, should be avoided. UrbanPlanet may just be an online forum, but it is a very popular medium for commentary and news, as well as rumours and gossip, so it does have the potential to affect the local economy, real estate market and potential funding for future developments.

Not only do realtors and developers read these forums, but so do their friends, family, business partners, city officials and bankers that those realtors and developers depend on for support and funding. If our comments on these forums were more supportive of these developers and their developments then we may actually be helping some of these developments get started or be completed.

We should be using this forum to make a change for the good in NWA, because when enough people are focused on change then it may happen sooner. The alternative is focusing on the negative and wondering why so many developments are taking so long to come to fruition.

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I don't really think it helps to avoid negativity, as that paints an improper picture of the market, and then you have people discover the truth after they are invested way too much into something, leading to foreclosures, bankruptcy, etc. Hopefully those that read these and have a stake in the economic success of the region are smart enough to get some info from here, but take it with a grain of salt! :offtopic:

Back on topic, it does seem odd that they are continuing to work on the cosmo if they are going to close, unless the work being done is to get it sellable. I will say though, that I know groups are being told that the Cosmo can't hold their event, and the groups are scrambling to find other places to hold the event, but these are close in dates, not future activities.

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Just so we all remember this is a public forum and there will always be negativity in every forum. It would be unrealistic just to have a forum with all good thoughts or facts... that is not how the real world works. Until the negative comments or facts become a problem, we have to deal with reality.

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Negative facts are one thing, but what we're seeing mostly is negative rumour and gossip lacking any basis on fact. Examples: Stating that a restaurant closed is one thing but blabbering that there was word on the street that a restaurant closed because of a rat problem is another. Stating that a development's completion date was pushed back is one thing, but blabbering that a development is going under because the developer is going broke is another.

Some people defend the right to make negative comments just so they don't lose their sole purpose in life... to bad mouth other people. But isn't that called freedom? Well, you can destroy freedom as much by abusing it as you can by taking it away. And since the topic is obviously about posting negative comments about a particular developer then it is not off-topic to discuss the negativity of those comments.

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I respect anyone's right on here to have an opinion.

I think the newcomers who are jumping up to defend developers are entitled to their opinions, too.

There's nothing wrong with people expressing differing views.

I think most of us would be well served to understand and remember that a lot of what is on here is very subjective, and that in reality, a lot of it is just an individual or a few people's opinion. 99.9% of the people of NWA will never read this forum or know it exists. I find it hard to believe this forum is either very influential or detrimental to anything or anyone.

Its mostly a small group of people who for whatever reasons are interested in planning, development, architecture, etc, and enjoy the discussions.

Its not a news source or infallible truth oracle and I don't think its intended to be.

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I don't really think it helps to avoid negativity, as that paints an improper picture of the market, and then you have people discover the truth after they are invested way too much into something, leading to foreclosures, bankruptcy, etc. Hopefully those that read these and have a stake in the economic success of the region are smart enough to get some info from here, but take it with a grain of salt! :offtopic:

Back on topic, it does seem odd that they are continuing to work on the cosmo if they are going to close, unless the work being done is to get it sellable. I will say though, that I know groups are being told that the Cosmo can't hold their event, and the groups are scrambling to find other places to hold the event, but these are close in dates, not future activities.

The economy is what we want it to be. you play like it is going bad it will happen, you play it like all is going well it might go well(self-prophecy and fufillmet...human behaviors 101), there is a fine balance between the two that must be kept.

As far as the cosmo goes they are in a full scale renovation, I heard that at least half of the floors are under renovations. Try keeping all of the events that had been scheduled with half the space. Of coursr you are going to have to turn some people away unfortunetly. If they were reallt going under, you don't turn away business, it get all you can to try to reduce your loses before going under.....Plus it dosent make sense for them to finish the renovation just to close down, that is just spending more money which means more debt, seems illogical. The Cosmo is not going to close down.

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I think these newcomers are right. We should only post positive and reassuring comments about NWA developments. Any negative comments about developers or business closings, whether true or not, should be avoided. UrbanPlanet may just be an online forum, but it is a very popular medium for commentary and news, as well as rumours and gossip, so it does have the potential to affect the local economy, real estate market and potential funding for future developments.

Not only do realtors and developers read these forums, but so do their friends, family, business partners, city officials and bankers that those realtors and developers depend on for support and funding. If our comments on these forums were more supportive of these developers and their developments then we may actually be helping some of these developments get started or be completed.

We should be using this forum to make a change for the good in NWA, because when enough people are focused on change then it may happen sooner. The alternative is focusing on the negative and wondering why so many developments are taking so long to come to fruition.

I totally agree with you. You nailed it, there are people who look at these forums that are probably involved in local projects one way or another. It's not a crime to talk about bad news, but lets keep it fact based please. Positive thinking DOES have better outcomes than over the top negative speculations.

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I respect anyone's right on here to have an opinion.

I think the newcomers who are jumping up to defend developers are entitled to their opinions, too.

There's nothing wrong with people expressing differing views.

I think most of us would be well served to understand and remember that a lot of what is on here is very subjective, and that in reality, a lot of it is just an individual or a few people's opinion. 99.9% of the people of NWA will never read this forum or know it exists. I find it hard to believe this forum is either very influential or detrimental to anything or anyone.

Its mostly a small group of people who for whatever reasons are interested in planning, development, architecture, etc, and enjoy the discussions.

Its not a news source or infallible truth oracle and I don't think its intended to be.

While I do agree we can't assume everybody knows about us I wouldn't underestimate the forum either. There's a lot of people lurking out there. They may not 'actively participate' but looking at some of the topics, there are thousands of views and it's not just us. While it very well can be coincidence there's been a number of times I've seen a question asked or a topic brought up only to see if mentioned the next day on the local news on tv. And we do know Andrew visits here on a frequent basis and works for Arkansas Business.

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Architecturally speaking, "white" is a favorite of many modernist. Richard Meier uses it extensively. He is known in the architect world as member of the "Five Whites" or "New York Five". The other four architects involved in the movement include Peter Eisenman, John Hejduk, Michael Graves and Charles Gwathney. Their work was inspired by another great modernist Le Corbusier and drew from other "less is more" ideas of Mies Van der Rohe. White in a modern context is often used for its simple and clean inspiration vs. unneccesary color.

White doesn't work on every building but it does on this one.

I don't dislike the white at all. I can see why Nock painted it out--I probably would have done the same. The brick was pretty dated looking. Not fresh. This a modern hotel now.

M

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Did you ever pause to think that in a development such as the ones that John Nock takes on, there could possibly be a thousand more complications and roadblocks to get past than your "small" developments? Maybe you do finish what you start, but a "small scale" project is going to have a much smaller timetable, isn't it? It would take lot less vision, a lot less brains, and a lot less guts to do the projects you do. When it's all over with, your projects will literally be dwarfed in the shadow of John Nock's projects. Ever think about that? Maybe instead of pointing your finger at someone who at least appears to me to be the most prominent developer in the downtown area, you should think about something constructive, like how you could attempt to tackle a big project for once. Besides, your arguement is unfounded anyway. Nock's finished a lot of projects. The Fulbright Building, Craven's Condos, the condos above Taste of Thai, Mariachis, the Condos on the Bank of America. Those have been done for a long time, you can't say that because the entire building isn't finished that he doesn't finish things! That's absurd. From what I can tell they still had tenets renting the offices below those condos as recently as last month, so how could they have finished the building when they most likely had obligations to those tenets? And the Cosmo interior was only really started in December. I'm sure you're comments aren't motivated by the fact that John Nock is a competitor.

Wow--you are getting a little too emotional. First off, John Nock is someone I consider a friend. Secondly, I DO NOT COMPETE with him at all--we do totally different things. Third--small scale projects of high design, completed, are really quite challenging. Maybe you don't realize that. Fourth--relax. It's OK. We are all entitled to our opinions. John has lost a good deal of credibility over the hole in the ground. I hope he regains it and gets the Ren and his other projects done. They will all be good for Fayetteville.

M

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I respect anyone's right on here to have an opinion.

I think the newcomers who are jumping up to defend developers are entitled to their opinions, too.

There's nothing wrong with people expressing differing views.

I think most of us would be well served to understand and remember that a lot of what is on here is very subjective, and that in reality, a lot of it is just an individual or a few people's opinion. 99.9% of the people of NWA will never read this forum or know it exists. I find it hard to believe this forum is either very influential or detrimental to anything or anyone.

Its mostly a small group of people who for whatever reasons are interested in planning, development, architecture, etc, and enjoy the discussions.

Its not a news source or infallible truth oracle and I don't think its intended to be.

Right on, Brother!

M

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No personal offense was meant to "Mark". How was what I said any different than what he said? He's making attacks that aren't fact based, isn't that all I did? How'd it get personal all of a sudden? Until just a minute ago I had no idea who he even was. I looked at a website with some of his projects, and you know what, it looks pretty good. I don't mean to belittle smaller developments and the impact they have in our community, however, to compare what he does to the scale of what Nock and others are doing, and imply that it's just as easy to start and finish an 18 story 40 million dollar project as it is to go get a 100,000 dollar loan, doesn't make sense. I just get really tired of all the negative speculation that flies through here all the time. It's bad for our market here, and it stirs fears that are unfounded. We can't expect developers to tell us every detail about what is going on behind the scenes. Certainly there are valid fears, bacause of the large amount of bankrupt developers and the developments they left behind, but I look at it this way, anyone who thinks that the Ren isn't going up: why would Nock be paying for the crane to stay there? And paying the City fees on top of that? Don't you think that if there was any bit of concern that it might never happen, he would take the crane down in the meantime? The last thing I read is that he said it's going to happen. I would imagine if it wasn't he would start preparing us all for that blow. People spouting negative remarks with nothing but speculation do our city a disservice, and should know how it feels a little bit. Someone mentioned that Nock was buying up Barber's projects, anyone know which ones?

For what it's worth, I didn't say anything that wasn't factual. I also repeatedly said I like John. And last, who says I get $100K loans to do my projects? I have a couple million bucks worth of real estate--it's a good chunk of cash--I don't rely on sucking in other investors--all my projects are my projects and I am completely responsible for their success or failure.

My understanding is the hang-up on the Ren is money, plain and simple. I can see that would be hard to get right now in this environment. John has not pulled the plug on this because he is an optimist--like any developer. That's what's great about developers and also what's bad about them.

Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions. I am not negative toward John or any of his projects. I don't think the Cosmo is going broke. I will say what I think here and everywhere else. I will not feel obligated to only say positive things for fear I am hurting the city. That is ridiculous! That's like saying we cannot be critical of the government because it's anti-American, or suggest we can't say we don't like the war in Iraq because that is "not supporting the troops." I don't buy any of that nor do I accept the fact that we cannot be critical here nor question what any developer is doing.

Mark

M

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While I do agree we can't assume everybody knows about us I wouldn't underestimate the forum either. There's a lot of people lurking out there. They may not 'actively participate' but looking at some of the topics, there are thousands of views and it's not just us. While it very well can be coincidence there's been a number of times I've seen a question asked or a topic brought up only to see if mentioned the next day on the local news on tv. And we do know Andrew visits here on a frequent basis and works for Arkansas Business.

A good example that applies here... I just did a Google search with just the keywords: fayetteville john nock and UrbanPlanet came up in 4th place, even before Fayetteville's own official website. Just the keywords: john nock brought UrbanPlanet in at 19. So yes there are probably some investors and other people involved with developments that may end up reading our forums if they do a casual internet search.

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A good example that applies here... I just did a Google search with just the keywords: fayetteville john nock and UrbanPlanet came up in 4th place, even before Fayetteville's own official website. Just the keywords: john nock brought UrbanPlanet in at 19. So yes there are probably some investors and other people involved with developments that may end up reading our forums if they do a casual internet search.

:offtopic: That's funny- that's how I found UP in the first place- I was searching Google for info on some development and it was on the first page of results. I think a lot of media people use UP as a research tool and a lot of elected officials/ civic minded citizens keep up with the dicusssions even though they may not be members or post themselves. It's a very good site for all involved and thanks to the admins and mods for their work. :thumbsup:

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:offtopic: That's funny- that's how I found UP in the first place- I was searching Google for info on some development and it was on the first page of results. I think a lot of media people use UP as a research tool and a lot of elected officials/ civic minded citizens keep up with the dicusssions even though they may not be members or post themselves. It's a very good site for all involved and thanks to the admins and mods for their work. :thumbsup:

I did the same!

M

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I'm not saying Nock shouldn't expect tough questions, it has taken longer than all of us hoped it would, but I really think it is going to happen. I would say that if the crane came down then we all might have reason to wonder if it's going to happen. Good point on the taxpayers stake in the project. However, I'm pretty sure that it's all the same in the end. Last I saw Nock was still paying the city 25 grand a month. So, as it stands aren't the taxpayers and the city already seeing dollar signs? As far as scrutiny spreading from the Ren to Nock's other jobs, I don't really see it. It seems to me that all of his jobs are either in full swing or finished. I'm extremely excited to see the Ren start, I think a little more patience on all our parts will pay off pretty soon.

Actually it's not all the same in the end. The idea behind a TIF district is to encourage development in a blighted area, not just one developer's parcel. If/when the Ren Tower is completed it should spark a economic boom in the downtown area in general and the Mountain and Center Streets in particular. As it is, several businesses have went out of business or moved because of the disruption caused by the construction activity. If the Ren Tower had been completed as first advertised the city would be collecting more than what it is receiving as compensation from Nock's group.

I sincerely hope that the nationwide economic conditions are behind the delay in the project and we can expect a start to the project in the near future.

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Wow--you are getting a little too emotional. First off, John Nock is someone I consider a friend. Secondly, I DO NOT COMPETE with him at all--we do totally different things. Third--small scale projects of high design, completed, are really quite challenging. Maybe you don't realize that. Fourth--relax. It's OK. We are all entitled to our opinions. John has lost a good deal of credibility over the hole in the ground. I hope he regains it and gets the Ren and his other projects done. They will all be good for Fayetteville.

M

You're still on this? Maybe you should relax.

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Actually it's not all the same in the end. The idea behind a TIF district is to encourage development in a blighted area, not just one developer's parcel. If/when the Ren Tower is completed it should spark a economic boom in the downtown area in general and the Mountain and Center Streets in particular. As it is, several businesses have went out of business or moved because of the disruption caused by the construction activity. If the Ren Tower had been completed as first advertised the city would be collecting more than what it is receiving as compensation from Nock's group.

I sincerely hope that the nationwide economic conditions are behind the delay in the project and we can expect a start to the project in the near future.

That's a good point. I think we all agree that it is something we wish could have been done by now. I'm willing to bet that no one wishes that more than Nock and his partners though. As far as businesses closing because of the construction, I'm not so sure. The issue that everyone loves to bring up is the lack of contruction that's been going on. If a business closed, I'm sure that a few days of Mountain Street being shut down was one of their smaller problems. But then again, maybe you have info I don't. It's true the city would probably be collecting more than the 25k if it were done already due to the positive impact on neighboring businesses, not to mention a lot more employment for this area, but I think it's all the more reason to be positive about it. At least we even have this issue to debate instead of still talking about The Mountain Inn. I know cops and firemen who were very very excited to see that thing go away.

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Actually it's not all the same in the end. The idea behind a TIF district is to encourage development in a blighted area, not just one developer's parcel. If/when the Ren Tower is completed it should spark a economic boom in the downtown area in general and the Mountain and Center Streets in particular. As it is, several businesses have went out of business or moved because of the disruption caused by the construction activity. If the Ren Tower had been completed as first advertised the city would be collecting more than what it is receiving as compensation from Nock's group.

I sincerely hope that the nationwide economic conditions are behind the delay in the project and we can expect a start to the project in the near future.

That's a good point that also needs to be considered by those getting worked up over criticism.

That's a good point. I think we all agree that it is something we wish could have been done by now. I'm willing to bet that no one wishes that more than Nock and his partners though. As far as businesses closing because of the construction, I'm not so sure. The issue that everyone loves to bring up is the lack of contruction that's been going on. If a business closed, I'm sure that a few days of Mountain Street being shut down was one of their smaller problems. But then again, maybe you have info I don't. It's true the city would probably be collecting more than the 25k if it were done already, not to mention a lot more employment for this area, but I think it's all the more reason to be positive about it. At least we even have this issue to debate instead of still talking about The Mountain Inn. I know cops and firemen who were very very excited to see that thing go away.

The Mountain Inn was a danger in the condition it'd been allowed to decline to, no doubt. Anyone that's forgotten what kind of condition it was in should check out this website: http://www.undergroundozarks.com/gallery/mountain . Actually, it's kind of interesting even if you do remember.

Also, I wasn't around Fayetteville in the 80s... what caused the Mountain Inn to close? It looks like it was a relatively large/nice place in it's day. Also, it seems odd that a building that historic would be allowed to let go, and then demolished, instead of renovating it (I saw there were plans to do that in 2000, but Nock wasn't able to get that project moving forward at the time).

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I'm not 100 percent on all the facts, but from what I understand, Nock bought The Mountain Inn from an out of state owner back sometime in 03 I think. I'm pretty sure at first that there were plans to renovate it, but it had been closed since the late 90s, and after 9/11 the plans were put aside. In the meantime the place fell apart even more. If it weren't for all the vandals, it might have been much more possible to renovate. I think the consensus was that it would be better to just build a better structure in that spot than try to salvage it. As much as I didn't like seeing an older building go, I'm convinced that one was a lost cause by the time it really got the attention it deserved.

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