Why People Don't Ride CATS

[SmellyCat]

Why then did you move to the suburbs knowing all this (I assume you did the research ahead of time)? You could have moved uptown or even to dilworth, south end or wesley heights and been able to walk to work. Or moved along south blvd where you could take the light rail to work in about a year and a half.

You make a lot of generalizations. First of all you say city minded people learn to live to(?) those who are different. Not sure what that has to do with riding public transportation, but I will tell you sometimes there is very little convenience about the subway. When I lived in Queens (7 miles from midtown Manhattan), it took me almost an hour to commute each way. 7 miles = 1 hour is NOT convenient. And believe it or not, I don't miss standing on 100 degree subway platforms in my suit waiting 20 minutes for the N train to arrive late as usual.

And most of the "richest" people in NYC take cabs or limo towncars to work. At least, that was my experience while working on the 'Street.

[orulz]

I have thought the same thing about buses here in Raleigh.

I would prefer that they serve fewer areas but serve the areas they DO serve with twice or three times the present frequency. Trim out some of the redundancy on nearby parallel roads, and run more crisscross routes rather than making every bus terminate at the downtown hub. The goal should be to turn bus service into a grid to the greatest extent possible.

Put in more amenities at the stops like schedules, lights, and benches. Attractive shelters are a must, too - forget plexiglass; it fades, clouds up, gets scratched, and ends up looking awful. Something like what they have in Chapel Hill and Carrboro would be nice. Live ETA displays would be a nice touch too, once the technology is mature.

Then, spread the stops out so there's around a half mile between them rather than 200 yards.

I really do think they could end up with faster, better (and more well-used) bus service without buying any more buses and with no increase in labor costs.

[cinco]

i too, used to rely on the CATS bus system to get to work. i feel your pain lupitachica, it truly sucked. i lived in the city and would catch the bus to work, which by car would only take 15 min. because the transfer uptown my commute was 45 min. i am hopeful the new transit additions will enlighten the path of commuters. i also used to ride TTA? in the triangle area. i would take it from raleigh to work in durham then from durham to more work in chapel hill. the system up there was a much better experience. the shuttles that made the long hauls to and from raleigh were somewhat comfortable and i accomplished alot of reading.

*sidenote* "the art of war" by sun-tzu, is a good bus read.

[atlrvr]

I'm with smelly on this one. The bus system is inefficient because the city is laid out in a manner that is innefficient for effective transit service, and the cause of this is two-fold.

Poor urban planning from 195x-199x. The city was content to let white flight shape the city. But more importantly it falls on the residents. When you chose to live in an area that is served by an express bus (accessed by a park and ride) you are only lending credence to the city expanding this suburban model. There are many "urban" neighborhoods that are well served by transit.

[monsoon]

True Charlotte is a victim of automobile inspired development. It started with Myers Park in the 30s and continues to this day. Even with all that is known about this the Charlotte city council continues to approve development after development that will require more automobiles go onto the road. It is the worst in the county in that regard. (Well Pineville is a very close second)

However as bad as the development is, the bus system should not be used as a stick to punish those who choose and have to live in the 99% of the city that is like this.

Now the problem with CATS and the 2025 transportation plan is that it also has a 1950s view of how transportation should be handled. The biggest deficency is that it assumes that everyone who rides transit wants or has to go downtown. Yet the vast majority of people in the county have no need to ever go there, hence CATS is very inconvenient to use as a bus transfer in the center city adds hours to a bus trip.

CATS ought to take a page from Houston. It is a much larger city than Charlotte and is comprised of the same kind of development, ie sprawl and is surrounded by endless spagetti highways. But at the same time they also manage to operate one of the most effective bus systems in the country. I am not sure but it might be #2 or #3 in the USA based on the number of people that it carries.

If CATS learned from Houston's model, they would abandon the current 1950s thinking and instead put in routes and transit nodes that actually move people to where they need to go. For example, look at University City. There are far more people employed there than in downtown Charlotte. If the Wachovia CIC and the Meridian exchange were fully utilized thats 30,000 employees in just 2 buildings. Add to that the rest of URP, University Hospital, UNCC, etc, and there are 70 to 80 thousand people that need to travel to this area each day (and it is growing faster than downtown)

So with that many people needed to get to University City each day, how does CATS choose to connect it to the rest of the City? 2.5 express routes and one local route to downtown where relatively few people live. And the times are oriented in the wrong direction.

If CATS wanted to really serve this area, which would take cars off the street its not rocket science to do so. They could build a major transit center in University city and run local transit buses to the major employment centers in the area. Then they would have direct buses to places where people actually live such as Lake Norman, SouthPark, and East Charlotte where similar transit centers would be built. These would be connected together without requiring the downtown connection. Eventually trains could connect the transit centers to each other. This is how it is done in many major cities.

Is it too much to dream for, no. Will it happen in Charlotte, no. Our leaders are too myopic.

[lupitachica]

The move we made to Charlotte happened rather quickly. With the research we did, we decided that we did not want to live Uptown (for example) because its cost were to high for not nearly enough city. Additionally, I wanted to live in a diverse neighborhood. I did not want to be one of a handful of black person residing in my community, nor did I want to live in an area that did not have a mixture of class types.

In my opinion, 15 minutes away from "uptown", the 2nd largest financial center in the country should not be the "suburbs". Yet it is even though I live in the "city" of Charlotte. The convenience I'm looking for is a bus system that runs fairly frequently with stops near my home. I'd like to be able to jump on the bus and go to a store with some ease.

I think more crisscross routes are a great idea too.

FYI, the property we purchased is very near the area where we are currently renting. A component in our decision was the ability to walk a sidewalk and catch the Xpress bus. While we managed to do this, friends who have also relocated did not.

I used to commute from Brooklyn to Manhattan everyday for work by train (approx 40 mins). I'm very familiar with the headaches of mass transportation but imo the positive benefits of a good transportation system far outway the bad especially when you're talking about having the hopes of this city becoming a thriving vibrant major city.

And most of the "richest" people in NYC take cabs or limo towncars to work. At least, that was my experience while working on the 'Street.

The extremely wealthy perhaps but the much of the uppermiddle and upper class still use public transportantion. The average NYer definetly uses public transportation. There are 8mil people in NY and 4.5 use the subways daily, that's not even talking about buses. These stats include a significant % of the upperclass. Something like 6 of 10 use mass transit including things like the LIRR.

[monsoon]

Welcome to the forum lupitachica and thanks for the very good unbiased observations of downtown Charlotte and the city transportation system. Its unfortunate that leaders in Charlotte don't really care about supporting diversity considering the recent actions to drive young Black kids out of the downtown. I can only assume this is because these kids don't have the money to purchase the very expensive real estate there so the CCCP has teamed up with the Mayor and Police to drive these guys out to other parts of the city. We have another thread on this here at UP that explores this subject. Please enjoy yourself on the forum.

[reverbandwhiskey]

"The convenience I'm looking for is a bus system that runs fairly frequently with stops near my home. I'd like to be able to jump on the bus and go to a store with some ease."

Then maybe you should ahve reseached where you wanted to live, and found a home near a major transit line....

[monsoon]

Then maybe you should ahve reseached where you wanted to live, and found a home near a major transit line....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I continue to be amazed at the attitude of blaming the individual for the failings of our transit system. If the goal is to get people out of cars, after having accepted that most of Charlotte is car oriented, then one has to put the burden of doing so on CATS back since it is their job to reach this goal. The attitude of, "we will run a bus down a certain road and if you want to ride that bus you better live near it", is not the approach to solving the mass transit problems of this city.

The problem of course goes back to the City Council who should only approve a new development or neighborhoods only if there are good plans with CATS to serve that neighborhood with transit. I know this is an alien idea here, but its one we need to adopt, or Charlotte will continue to have the worst air in the country. We have to stop blaiming it on individuals who have little power on their own to solve these issues except to hold their politicians responsible for this mess.

[dubone]

welcome l/c.

you have a fresh criticism of the city and the transit system, and thanks for joining the discussion here on u/p.

i think the city of charlotte is been experiencing a major change in philosophy over the last 5 or so years. Before, the city grew very much in typically suburban patterns over most of the last half century. Part of that was the lack of imagination that the city would ever be a city as large as it is now (when 485 was planned, local leaders didn't really imagine that the city would grow enough to reach that distant part of the county, so they allowed NCDOT to design it as a rural highway). the city allowed the worst of sprawl to continue unfettered... no connectivity, no sidewalks, culdesacs, clearcut trees, etc. Anyway, this is why most of the city is sprawled and suburban.

Although suburban patterns still continue in this city and county. at this point, the city has corrected some of major problems of the suburban developments, with sidewalk, culdesac, connectivity, and clearcutting policies, although they are a little compromised vs the strictest of standards. The city does plan, however, to convert much of the city to a more urban growth pattern, by rezoning land along the 5 radial rapid transit corridors. Once the lines are running, much of the bus service will be converted to run laterally, allowing the higher capacity S light rail line to carry the load for people headed downtown. It should also free up some of the busses from routes that the light rail will replace in order to provide more frequent service or better routes. they are also accelerated the purchases of busses for the same purpose.

i'm honestly not defending the transit system... i really don't know that much about it, and i don't ride it because it doesn't serve my commuting needs, even though i live uptown... i just think that considering the suburban nature of most of the city, they are making reasonable choices given the circumstances.

[ngp]

I continue to be amazed at the attitude of blaming the individual for the failings of our transit system. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As opposed to relinquishing all social responsibility in the hopes that government will fix everyone's problems? You've just spent your past two posts beotching about the inefficiency of the government here. Why, then, are you amazed that we'd tell somebody to look out for themselves rather than depending on a government which uses outdated planning philosophies? I always read you as having a libertarian slant, metro.

If public transit is important to somebody, then it's foolish for them to live in a place where public transit is inaccessible. It propagates the city's current MO. (So does choosing a neighborhood based on racial make-up and economic class, but that's another thread for another day.) It's that sort of thinking that causes Charlotte to be the cluster f**k that it so often is.

If the people who value transit will live along transit corridors, then it's a win-win for everybody. Fewer cars will be on the roads, density will increase, development will be slightly less sprawled out, and most importantly, CATS will get the message that mass transit is desired on a large scale. I'm pretty sure CATS knows the system isn't perfect. I'm also pretty sure they know that things get even harder to manage as people continue moving into the 'burbs and then complain about how they aren't being effectively served by enough bus routes. Somebody should e-mail them and ask.

By the way, I saw my first hybrid bus yesterday. Pretty neat.

[reverbandwhiskey]

"I continue to be amazed at the attitude of blaming the individual for the failings of our transit system. "

Well he said that living near mass transit was important to him. Why not simply move near a major transit line?

[monsoon]

"I continue to be amazed at the attitude of blaming the individual for the failings of our transit system. "

Well he said that living near mass transit was important to him.  Why not simply move near a major transit line?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I don't think it is unreasonable to demand that CATS do a better job at spending our tax money that we all pay.

[dubone]

Because I don't think it is unreasonable to demand that CATS do a better job at spending our tax money that we all pay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but this thread started because of a route that didn't get much ridership. like it or not, dollar-for-dollar, the culdesac neighborhoods in south charlotte are not very efficient to serve. CATS serves the area by providing routes along the thoroughfares, but obviously that requires either park&ride for the suburban neighborhood residents, or a long walk. if they did serve those neighborhoods, and only l/c rode it, there would be many more complaints about routes with low ridership.

Their strategy of heavily serving the area within 4 miles or so of dowtown (where most neighborhoods are already TOD for the most part), providing service along all the major thoroughfares in the medium suburbs (1960s-90s city limits), and express routes + park&rides for more distant suburban commuters, is a fairly reasonable system for a city like charlotte. Meanwhile, they are planning mass transit corridors that contain TOD/higher density zoning areas for the future in order to create.... in order to reshape how the city develops.

i agree that CATS needs to be rational about their routes, but i'm not so sure they aren't. Even though we all wish that north meck-types and south charlotte-types would be avid bus riders, there just isn't enough interest to base an expensive non-commuting/express bus system around. but in this situation, if you plan to live your life using the bus system, you must take that into consideration when chosing your neighborhood (just the same as school system or road system or park system or whatever else).

[reverbandwhiskey]

"Because I don't think it is unreasonable to demand that CATS do a better job at spending our tax money that we all pay."

So CATS should somehow make the bus system reach every single house in the area efficiently, whils still staying on budget?

I would really like to see how this would be done. The layout of the city makes it practically impossible to offer efficient bus service to every neighborhood.

I think the gentleman's problem is that he chose his home based on race, and not on location/transit options. If mass transit was so important to him maybe he should have chosen his home based on that instead of the ethic background of his neighbors.

[monsoon]

So CATS should somehow make the bus system reach every single house in the area efficiently, whils still staying on budget?

I would really like to see how this would be done.  The layout of the city makes it practically impossible to offer efficient bus service to every neighborhood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you read above I did not suggest such an impossible solution. No city in the world provides that kind of service.

[dubone]

but isn't CATS already moving in the direction you promote, metro? they are planning neighborhood transit centers in the suburbs, and plan to use the LRT stations as bus nodes for new suburb to suburb routes with LRT bearing much of the burden for getting people downtown.

The eventual plan is for mass rapid transit of some sort on each of the 5 corridors, and doubling or trebling the numbers of busses, which will then be focused on supporting the suburban activity centers and bringing people to the rapid transit stations.

[lupitachica]

Thanks to all that greeted me so warmly. That spirit is what I like about Charlotte.

Dubone, you're points about the suburban dvelopment of Charlotte makes sense to me. Charlotte looks like it did not expect a major city. I was a bit surprised at the lack of planning when it comes to sidewalks, etc. Maybe this couldn't be helped but I feel like it will hinder the city. I can't help but think a change in philosophy about transportation is necesseary based on my experience with mass transit here.

In regards to this comment

Then maybe you should ahve reseached where you wanted to live, and found a home near a major transit line....

If you reread my comments about the CATs system, you will see that I do live near a major transit line. I commute to work by bus everyday. I also live within walking distance of a bus stop and purposely purchased property in an area that is more accessible to public transportation that most that I'd visited. Its because I use the bus every workday that I can comment on its effectiveness for me. What I notice is that its not frequent enough, it doesn't run late enough from uptown and that most people using the service in the morning park & ride. I sometimes park and ride because the sidewalks aren't well kept and the bus stops aren't well placed. I live within a 15 minutes of uptown well within the Charlotte city limits. Charlotte is not a big city, and my point is that I think being a 15 minute commute to a major business district should not constitute being in "the boonies" in terms of public transportation.

I think the gentleman's problem is that he chose his home based on race, and not on location/transit options. If mass transit was so important to him maybe he should have chosen his home based on that instead of the ethic background of his neighbors.

I am a female (hence lupitachica). I'm not sure how many people purchase homes/rent in communities where they are the only or one of a few persons of their ethnic/religious/race/socioeconomic background. Typically this is a minority issue as the majority rarely chooses to live as minorities in their environment. We purchased in a townhome community that is diverse imo for this area (based on the research I did in a short amount of time. It contains blacks, latinos, whites, professionals and working class. There is both lowincome rentals nearby as well as much higher end rentals. I definetly did not want to live in an area where I was the only black face. If that is worthy of criticism then so be it, but I'd suggest that everyone reflect on where they live and the diversity of their own community. And then contemplate on how often you've been the token in your school, work and home environment and/or how you would feel if you were before judging me.

[krazeeboi]

It propagates the city's current MO. (So does choosing a neighborhood based on racial make-up and economic class, but that's another thread for another day.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that this is a rather important issue and it does affect the vitality of a city in significant ways that often go unnoticed. The Failures of Integration: How Race and Class are Undermining the American Dream by Georgetown law professor Sheryll D. Cashin is an excellent read in this regard. But as you have stated, it is another thread for another day.

[lupitachica]

It propagates the city's current MO. (So does choosing a neighborhood based on racial make-up and economic class, but that's another thread for another day.)

What is the city's current MO?

I believe that this is a rather important issue and it does affect the vitality of a city in significant ways that often go unnoticed. The Failures of Integration: How Race and Class are Undermining the American Dream by Georgetown law professor Sheryll D. Cashin is an excellent read in this regard. But as you have stated, it is another thread for another day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't read that book but I do believe that race/class issues have/will play a significant role in how Charlotte develops. I think its interesting that in a forum where some use "ghetto" like a slur, that I would receive criticism for using ethnic/socioeconomic diversity as a criteria for choosing a location for my home.

As far as the CATS system goes, I've given my critiques bases on my experiences so far.

[SmellyCat]

What is the city's current MO?   

I think its interesting that in a forum where some use "ghetto" like a slur...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then what is the politically correct term that you suggest?

[lupitachica]

Then what is the politically correct term that you suggest?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not offering an alternative. I believe people should say what they want how they want because it tends to reveal what they think. They just shouldn't get mad when they get called on it.

But can anybody answer that question: what is the city's current mo?

[SmellyCat]

I'm not offering an alternative. I believe people should say what they want how they want because it tends to reveal what they think.  They just shouldn't get mad when they get called on it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I use to term ghetto to describe a delapidated, run down or economically depressed area, regardless of the races, religions or persuasions of the people who happen to live in it.

I just don't want to be labeled a racist by you or anyone for using the term incorrectly as a slur without even knowing it.

[ngp]

But can anybody answer that question: what is the city's current mo?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Crap planning. Business parks with disjointed sidewalks that extend a mile from the main roads. Gated communities that disect neighborhoods. It seems like any developer in the world can come in build whatever they want, wherever they want for the most part.

But changes are being made, thankfully. Bike lanes are being added, and neighborhood redevelopment is being encouraged through things like tax breaks. And there is talk of grids being restored and improved, such as in downtown and Optimist Park.

[lupitachica]

Crap planning. Business parks with disjointed sidewalks that extend a mile from the main roads. Gated communities that disect neighborhoods. It seems like any developer in the world can come in build whatever they want, wherever they want for the most part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did notice that. It seems like there's is a lack of consistency or flow in Charlotte when comes to home building and transportation. And I feel like its hard to discern "neighborhoods" outside of the uptown area (granted, I still have a lot of Charlotte exploring to do).

I just don't want to be labeled a racist by you or anyone for using the term incorrectly as a slur without even knowing it.

Since I never used the term "racist", I'm not sure what your concern about being labeled has to do with what anything I wrote.