Tiers of SC cities

[krazeeboi]

^What do you mean when you say there is "nothing" in Spartanburg? Are six institutions of higher learning "nothing"? Are several corporate headquarters "nothing"? Is the largest auditorium in the state "nothing"?

In South Carolina, city populations don't tell the whole story. The city of Rock Hill is larger than the city of Greenville, and surely you wouldn't place Rock Hill ahead of Greenville simply based on that? The more accurate gauge of the size of a place is urbanized area, and according to the latest stats available, Spartanburg's is twice the size of Rock Hill's. To be totally honest with you, Rock Hill doesn't have much of a sense of place; the new growth here is pretty much sprawl, through and through--the kind you can find in any city with a decent growth rate. The downtown area isn't large at all (I think Orangeburg, a smaller city, has a better downtown/main street than Rock Hill), and as far as the growth, the city is merely riding on Charlotte's coattails. As far as schools, how does Rock Hill have better schools than Spartanburg? There's nothing outstanding about Rock Hill's schools (Fort Mill and Clover are different stories, but that's not Rock Hill).

[kyley5]

^What do you mean when you say there is "nothing" in Spartanburg? Are six institutions of higher learning "nothing"? Are several corporate headquarters "nothing"? Is the largest auditorium in the state "nothing"?

In South Carolina, city populations don't tell the whole story. The city of Rock Hill is larger than the city of Greenville, and surely you wouldn't place Rock Hill ahead of Greenville simply based on that? The more accurate gauge of the size of a place is urbanized area, and according to the latest stats available, Spartanburg's is twice the size of Rock Hill's. To be totally honest with you, Rock Hill doesn't have much of a sense of place; the new growth here is pretty much sprawl, through and through--the kind you can find in any city with a decent growth rate. The downtown area isn't large at all (I think Orangeburg, a smaller city, has a better downtown/main street than Rock Hill), and as far as the growth, the city is merely riding on Charlotte's coattails. As far as schools, how does Rock Hill have better schools than Spartanburg? There's nothing outstanding about Rock Hill's schools (Fort Mill and Clover are different stories, but that's not Rock Hill).

[krazeeboi]

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

[kyley5]

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

[krazeeboi]

I don't have to be in planning to know that there are obvious differences between the two cities. I know the information is a little dated, but it's the most recent figures we have; they are only released every decade.

Downtown Rock Hill still has a ways to go to get to downtown Spartanburg's level. Where is the Rock Hill equivalent of the Denny's Tower? Where is Rock Hill's equivalent of the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center? The Chapman Cultural Center? QS/1 headquarters? Extended Stay headquarters? Advance America headquarters? Barnett Park? Spartanburg Memorial Auditorium? Morgan Square? Rock Hill's downtown really only consists of a short stretch of Main and Black streets. I may be being a bit of a homer, but I can find more pedestrian activity on Orangeburg's Russell Street than on both of those streets combined, and that's being truthful. I'm not saying Rock Hill isn't making strides, but it has LOTS of work to do, as it is urbanizing very very little. Remember, this is URBAN Planet, not AllGrowthIsGoodAndShouldBeCelebrated Planet. Theoretically, because Rock Hill is capturing a substantial amount of its growth within the city limits, there should be tighter controls on development, but that doesn't really seem to be the case. As a matter of fact, the county appears to be more progressive when it comes to controlled growth and development. Rock Hill shouldn't just be capturing growth for more tax dollars, but also, and more importantly, for more sustainable development.

If you worked for the city of Spartanburg, then I can see where you may be coming from as far as growth is concerned, as practically all of the growth in Spartanburg is happening outside of the city limits, whereas Rock Hill is capturing a good bit of growth inside its city limits.

Spartanburg is much more self-sufficient and self-contained than Rock Hill, which practically depends on Charlotte for its well-being these days. Take away Charlotte, and Rock Hill will shrink dramatically. Take away Greenville, and Spartanburg will feel an impact, but it won't shrivel up and die. Almost as many people that reside in Greenville County are employed in Spartanburg County as vice versa. Can the same be said of York County and Mecklenburg County? I'm not saying that makes Spartanburg an inherently better city, but you've got to keep the discussion in perspective here. We're ranking self-sufficient cities here with their own urbanized areas/clusters. If we were just discussing suburban growth (which is basically the only kind of growth Rock Hill is experiencing--population and development-wise), I'd throw North Charleston and Mount Pleasant in there. For the time being, Rock Hill is holding itself down, but its days are numbered in that regard. Spartanburg will still be recognized for being a self-sufficient city and a primary city of its region and not a suburb.

[krazeeboi]

A city is not based upon it's downtown, just like population, just so you know;) If that was the case I would say no one in the state has a nice downtown except Greenville.

[krazeeboi]

As for riding the coattails for Charlotte, who cares?

[kyley5]

I just saw this after you edited your post.

You're missing the entire point of this discussion. We're not talking about which city is better, which is what you seem to be getting at, and that's highly subjective. We're basing this on indicators such as size, local economic base, GMP, etc.--the latter two being indicative of self-sufficiency. Things like a higher median income, job growth, population growth, real estate market, etc. have their place, but that's not what we're ultimately getting at here. I'm willing to bet that Huntsville, AL has all of those things in its favor compared to Birmingham, but to say that Huntsville occupies a higher tier based on that information would be utterly ludicrous. Spartanburg has enough economic gravity to pull in surrounding commuters, yet has an interdepency with the other Upstate cities. Rock Hill is pretty much reliant on Charlotte--and that's it. The higher the tier, the more self-sufficient a city is. Spartanburg is more self-contained and self-sufficient than Rock Hill, and I don't know how that can be disputed. Check the GMP figures to see how much wealth Spartanburg County generates in comparison to York County; it's almost twice as much and constitutes a larger share of the state's gross product (see report here, Table 8)--and this is updated information here.

And here's some information that should settle this schools thing once and for all. I will say that York County more than likely has better schools than Spartanburg County overall, but Rock Hill's school district is very much on par with Spartanburg's (District 5 and District 6); practically all of the schools in both cities fall into the "average" category so I fail to see the big advantage Rock Hill has over Spartanburg there.

[monsoon]

^Indeed. This topic is now 2 years old and the "arguments" have not changed. There was never a definition of Tier though it was assumed to be current size and growth, but not much else.

I would rather see a topic on which part of SC was doing a better job at providing cities that people want to live in that go beyond "good weather" and "good jobs". I tried to create one once but the topic did not go far as we still rate our cities on which chain stores locate there and on population growth no matter how bad that growth might be.

[kyley5]

^Indeed. This topic is now 2 years old and the "arguments" have not changed. There was never a definition of Tier though it was assumed to be current size and growth, but not much else.

I would rather see a topic on which part of SC was doing a better job at providing cities that people want to live in that go beyond "good weather" and "good jobs". I tried to create one once but the topic did not go far as we still rate our cities on which chain stores locate there and on population growth no matter how bad that growth might be.

[teshadoh]

Just to follow up - if you were to base population growth, education, economy, & other factors that identify 'quality of life' rather than identify any hiarchy of cities based on your argument kyley. For Georgia you would get a tier system like this:

Tier 1: Alpharetta, Marietta, Duluth

Tier 2: Atlanta, Sandy Springs, Roswell, Fayetteville

Tier 3: Macon, Savannah, Columbus, Augusta, Lawrenceville, Decatur

An exaggeration certainly, but Rock Hill has greatly benefited from being within close proximity to Charlotte. Sure I labeled Rock Hill a 'satellite city', but that also means Rock Hill functions within Charlotte's economic influence. Which would also means Rock Hill benefits from the high gear economy that would improve education, employment & population growth.

Nonetheless I see your point as for how we identify what a tiered city system is, you certainly have your system though I think it's highly subjective. Nonetheless, even though it would appear 'obvious' to myself & others that Charleston, Columbia, & Greenville are tier 1 cities with Spartanburg close behind - our view could be subjective.

But I hope you don't chat too much with the banned forummer winthropalum who argued that Rock Hill was superior to Greenville just as you are arguing Rock Hill is superior to Spartanburg.

[krazeeboi]

Like I said. Depends on what you are looking at. Spartanburg has its advantages as does Rock Hill. Which is what I was asking, how did you base your tier,. So its based on urbanized areas and wealth. I'll agree to disagree:)

[digital_sandlapper]

Just to follow up - if you were to base population growth, education, economy, & other factors that identify 'quality of life' rather than identify any hiarchy of cities based on your argument kyley. For Georgia you would get a tier system like this:

Tier 1: Alpharetta, Marietta, Duluth

Tier 2: Atlanta, Sandy Springs, Roswell, Fayetteville

Tier 3: Macon, Savannah, Columbus, Augusta, Lawrenceville, Decatur

An exaggeration certainly, but Rock Hill has greatly benefited from being within close proximity to Charlotte. Sure I labeled Rock Hill a 'satellite city', but that also means Rock Hill functions within Charlotte's economic influence. Which would also means Rock Hill benefits from the high gear economy that would improve education, employment & population growth.

Nonetheless I see your point as for how we identify what a tiered city system is, you certainly have your system though I think it's highly subjective. Nonetheless, even though it would appear 'obvious' to myself & others that Charleston, Columbia, & Greenville are tier 1 cities with Spartanburg close behind - our view could be subjective.

But I hope you don't chat too much with the banned forummer winthropalum who argued that Rock Hill was superior to Greenville just as you are arguing Rock Hill is superior to Spartanburg.

[krazeeboi]

All good points, DS.

For the sake of updated county population figures, Spartanburg County's estimated 2006 population is 271K, and York County's is 199K.

[Spartan]

I understand populations don't tell the entire story, I work in planning. You are giving me opinions. Rock Hill has a higher median income, job growth, sprawl aka population growth, real estate market, etc.....It is all depending on what you are looking for. I have seen the obvious differences. The Rock Hill and York County school districts are among the best in state, which is another reason my family and I decided to move here besides the obvious higher pay in Rock Hill. As for riding the coattails for Charlotte, who cares?

Where are these stats? I would be very interested to see this. Link me up.

[krazeeboi]

I'm just scratching my head that someone who claims to be a planner and participates on Urban Planet can say "All that matters is that Rock Hill is growing, who cares how." I guess that explains things in this town.

[jimthemanincda]

Here's my view, as an outsider, of SC cities:

Tier 1:

Charleston

Columbia

Tier 2:

Greenville

Tier 3:

Myrtle Beach

Spartanburg

[krazeeboi]

^Corresponds to municipal population I see.

[erm1981]

Greenville cant be in tier 2 ......geez.

[krazeeboi]

^Remember, that's his perspective as an outsider, which will be different from those of us who are from SC, reside here, or are familiar with the state.

[erm1981]

Yes, well I was being a little sarcastic. I recently went to downtown Spartanburg about a week ago to check it out. The new Carolina First building looks great and the Cultural Center is also comming along. Krazee.....I agree with you on your previous post about Spartanburg and Rock Hill. It is really silly to even debate it when most of us know the true answer. I know your just proving a point to kyley though.

[jimthemanincda]

^Corresponds to municipal population I see.

[Spartan]

Good point. Greenville sells itself on its small town charm more than Charleston or Columbia, so that perception of it being a smaller place to outsiders might be justified.

[monsoon]

Good point. Greenville sells itself on its small town charm more than Charleston or Columbia, so that perception of it being a smaller place to outsiders might be justified.

[Spartan]

Next would be Columbia mainly because it is the capital, the flag controversy, and the fact that if you join the Army and will most likely end up training in Ft. Jackson means it is known by millions of military and their families.