Why are cities more liberal?

[Dale]

I think Michael Savage lives in San Fracsisco. Apparently he's adding to the diversity of the city.

[FALLEN594]

Unless i am mistaken Orlando is a city --not a suburb.

[Snowguy716]

Preppy Mommy

I believe the correct terminology is "Sally Soccer Mom".. and she is faithfully married to "Joe Six Pack."

[FALLEN594]

Well I think a Preppy Mommy is different from a soccer mom, soccer mom's are middle-class, devoted to thier children and driving a ford windstar type of women. "Preppy Mommys" as Ive deemed them, only shop for their kids at saks or burberry, have 7 year olds wearing 7 jeans, pay people to ship their children to soccer practice, and are usually botoxed-out MILF's rolling around in the leuxs or the volvo or the beamer or the benz. But its all in good fun anyway

And just out of curiousity, why the nit pickiness about my use of the word Preppy Mommy, i was only making a point and you obviously got it since you connected it with "soccer mom" But none of this bickering has nothing at all to do with liberalism in cities, the topic of this thread .

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I bet that the way uninformed kids vote ends up being close to a zero-sum issue. I don't know where you're from, but for every herd-instinct Kerry vote you saw I probably saw one for Bush in Georgia.

It's very interesting, actually, because I go to a very liberal school in New York where I witnessed the very uninformed "Bush is evil" kind of attitude you're talking about. But I went to high school in Georgia, and most of my friends I talked to about the election had an equal-but-opposite attitude -- "flip-flopper," "liar," "commie," etc., in reference to Kerry. I find that younger Democratic voters tend on average to be better informed than younger Republican voters, and are much more likely to be actively involved in politics, but that may just be my experience. There's certainly plenty of mindless rhetoric on both parts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I live in a 1/2 redneck Virginia town, 1/2 upperclass suburban area. I think I orginally articulated my thoughts very poorly because I was saying things as I thought them with little editing... I also believe I made a gross generalization. I do think, however, that most kids and teens tend to follow what the media (and I don't want to hear it's not liberal because even with me being liberal I can tell you IT IS) and pop culture throw at them. There are always exceptions to the rule and kids who purposely go against the grain, but I find that many of the people at my school are overly opinionated and very ill-informed. I don't think a considerable number of people that are of voting-age are much better from what I've seen around here... (Around here NOT in any way referring to this thread because while I've disagreed with some opinions I can respect all that I have seen thus-far...).

>>>And wow, going back now on the page and a half I didn't see before I originally posted this is making my head spin (at 3 AM no less). For one... I think there must've been some serious post-editing because I haven't seen the original copies of what Russ posted and yeah, it seemed a little off-base. I don't want to bring up stuff that died down almost a page ago or stir up additional trouble, particularly not with someone who posts back on the Hampton Roads forum with very vaulable info that I rather enjoy, but that whole "liberals are one square from communism or Nazis" bit makes Elton John look un-dramatic. It was a totally base-less argument to say the least and I think that Americans are collectively immoral enough for us to NOT have to break it down to conservatives and liberals, christians and muslims or jews or atheists or what-have-you. I will give my 2 cents on gun control and let that be the end of it... While there are many law-lovin' citizens who own guns and only use them for "protection" or hunting, there are more who have nothing but ill-intentions with weapons. Guns were first and foremost designed to kill people and that is what they do on the streets around Hampton Roads every day. In the Daily Press (Newport News paper that is common on the Peninsula) they ran a story that said that 30+% of our nightly newscasts are on crime issues. Most of those are violent crimes nonetheless. I do not believe that ANYONE outside of law enforcement should own a gun. That may just be my opinion, and it's coming from a person who lives in a safe enough environment to not even desire owning one, but I will say that no good can ever come from a gun. The bit on the Nazis was a little overly dramatic as well. The Nazis didn't instill fear into the hearts of the German and Austrian citizens by taking their guns... they did it by slaughtering millions, by entering villages and ripping households to shreds and taking the children of pre-school age of families and brainwashing them to "Fight to the death for the Fuhrer". I may be completely off-topic, but ignorance of something as serious and deplorable as the Nazis makes me a little upset in the stomach. Comparing Americans because of their views to those heinous excuses for 'human beings' sickens me, especially when I am very liberal. Last time I checked I haven't killed 7 million Jews, homosexuals, and handicapped people.

I think that FALLEN made some very very astute statements (and threw in some good humor to break things up a bit). The glorious thing about suburbs is that even in the rare instances where they are highly ethnically mixed, cars, no sidewalks, and acres of land in between the homes make avoiding contact with others possible. That lacking of direct human contact (this isn't any rule by any means but a generality) is very significant in the types of people who choose to dwell in the suburbs as well as how they interact and think. I'm going to bed now and GOD I HOPE I MADE SENSE.

[Dale]

Im not making a personal attack Dale, and I rarely if ever come to this site, but I just had to point this out >>>>  OK, Dale you used hte arguement repeatedly that your suburb is just as diverse as any city (which it may be, but Id bet my life that that's the exception not the rule)  And then someone asked the name of the town (or city) you were from so they could look up the demographics themselves and you replied with Orlando.  Hun, Orlando is not a suburb.  But then you sidestepped mr smith's question completely when he pointed out that Orlando isnt a suburb.. Just curious as to why

Since Im here, might as well add my two cents

OK, I think, when it comes down to it, cities are more diverse.  Perhaps some suburbs are just as diverse on paper, but different demographics never mix in suburbs.. Everyone drives around holed up in their own cars, be them luxury SUVs or beat up caddys, and the only interaction they really have is with like-minded socio-economic people in their hood.  In general this is the case, and even at the local suburban super market I highly doubt that Preppy Mommy is gonna be chatting up Gangsta Momma.  The cities, however, are different.  Walking down 5th Avenue in NYC, known worldwide for its high-end shopping, you see people from all different walks of life walking along the same street, all part of the fabric of the neighborhood.  Even in the rich enclaves of the Upper West Side and tribeca, you are never more than a walk away from poverty, diversity, and crime.  And as has been stated, when you are expossed to people of al ethnicities, all socio-economic classes, and all countries of the world, especially as you walk down the street to catch the subway, you are a lot more likely to be socially liberal.  And city dwellers are diverse economically too, and city dwellers who have wealth may get to know some one who is really smart, witty, and capable, but for some reason or another doesnt (have wealth, that is)  Then they'd also be more likely to vote liberal on economic issues.  And since cities have pretty much always been bastions of liberality (is that a word?) and as they say, "birds of a feather.." it only makes sense that liberal minded people will be attracted to it, and therefore conservative people wont, because they dont want to be around liberal people.  I dont think the issue is that conservatives cant deal with diversity, even though that is unfortunately often the case, but the issue is that cities by their nature atract liberal from their diversity, Republicans dont feel at home there.  If only we didnt have such a polarizing political system.. and mymy, I rambled...  O, and I agree that kids are way too set in their ways, and only follow the views of their parents or whatever Jon Stewart said on the daily Show last night.  They really dont have a clue what the ramifications of the issues are, and why they're so important.  Im in High School, and I see it going on all the time... My schools mainly liberal, even though it is very wealthy and private, and its mainly because liberal is in and trendy among the young, rich, socialite crowd, not because of the issues.. which is sad.  And Republicans get a lot of verbal abuse too, which is also sad. ok, ill shut up now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I frankly don't see the problem. The man asked what city, and I told him. And I supplied the county on the offchance that he'd want to investigate non-urban voting patterns.

[paperback]

after reading this thread, i am reminded of Godwin's Law.

"As a thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

[MrSmith]

Getting back to the topic a bit...

I guess as a city dweller i tend to lean more liberal because I want to find solutions to the problems i see every day.

I have Somali immagrants living right accross the street from me, playing with and caring for their children --going to work everyday (in jobs i would never want) and it makes me realize that the vast majority are just like me. In fact, I wish more Americans were as devoted to their families. I don't want to treat them as criminals unless they are criminals. I want these families to succeed in America. It is our best defense against future terrorism and these immagrants revitalize America like the generations before them.

I see homeless people and know that either they have mental problems or drinking problems or no family to rely on and it makes me wonder, what can we as a society do to help solve or at least aleviate this problem. What if I had no family? What if I had mental problems? -- I could be out on the street.

I see gay couples who love one another and have been together longer than and are more devoted to their partners then many straight people I know and I can't help but think that denying them the basic legal protections that we give other couples is just plain unfair. In addition, I want us as a society to promote the idea that we need to help one another and form bonds --which ultimately would lead to less poverty, homelessness and isolation.

I see crime problem in which guns have killed so many people. The guns almost always seem to have been stolen from people who legally obtained them. I don't know how to stop the gun violence without restricting guns.

These are just a few "urban realities" I see everyday. I would be more then willing to hear conservative solutions but I don't see any conservatives offering solutions for these problems or situations. And, I am being serious -- I really want to know how conservatives would solve (not blame, not push aside, not sidestep) these urban realities -among others.

[MrSmith]

I frankly don't see the problem. The man asked what city, and I told him. And I supplied the county on the offchance that he'd want to investigate non-urban voting patterns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dale,

Actually that isn't true. You said you lived in a suburb and I asked which one and you gave me the name of a county and Orlando. You never gave me the name of the town. My theory was that cities are diverse and perhaps that is why they are liberal. I will be more than happy to compare the diversity of your suburb to Orlando and their voting records but in order to do so I actually need the name of the suburb.

[Dale]

Getting back to the topic a bit...

I guess as a city dweller i tend to lean more liberal because I want to find solutions to the problems i see every day.

I have Somali immagrants living right accross the street from me, playing with and caring for their children --going to work everyday (in jobs i would never want) and it makes me realize that the vast majority are just like me. In fact, I wish more Americans were as devoted to their families. I don't want to treat them as criminals unless they are criminals.  I want these families to succeed in America.  It is our best defense against future terrorism and these immagrants revitalize America like the generations before them.

I see homeless people and know that either they have mental problems or drinking problems or no family to rely on and it makes me wonder, what can we as a society do to help solve or at least aleviate this problem.  What if I had no family?  What if I had mental problems? -- I could be out on the street.

I see gay couples who love one another and have been together longer than and are more devoted to their partners then many straight people I know and I can't help but think that denying them the basic legal protections that we give other couples is just plain unfair.  In addition, I want us as a society to promote the idea that we need to help one another and form bonds --which ultimately would lead to less poverty, homelessness and isolation.

I see crime problem in which guns have killed so many people.  The guns almost always seem to have been stolen from people who legally obtained them.  I don't know how to stop the gun violence without restricting guns.

These are just a few "urban realities" I see everyday.  I would be more then willing to hear conservative solutions but I don't see any conservatives offering solutions for these problems or situations.  And, I am being serious -- I really want to know how conservatives would solve (not blame, not push aside, not sidestep) these urban realities -among others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your concerns are evident - and I appreciate them - but bear in mind the conservative is no less likely to think in terms of solutions, and he is apt to argue that so much in the way of social maladies are the fruit of liberal 'solutions'.

[MrSmith]

Your concerns are evident - and I appreciate them - but bear in mind the conservative is no less likely to think in terms of solutions, and he is apt to argue that so much in the way of social maladies are the fruit of liberal 'solutions'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Point well taken--but I would argue that Conservatives offer lots of social solutions too. Isn't that what "focus on the family" and tax breaks for people with kids are all about? I just want to specifically have them address these and other urban issues.

In other words "If the mayor of Minneapolis was a conservative what would he or she do to to address the problems of the city?" And, I don't mean how would he/she shift the burden --I mean how would he/she actually address and work toward solutions.

[Ruso]

Im in High School, and I see it going on all the time... My schools mainly liberal, even though it is very wealthy and private, and its mainly because liberal is in and trendy among the young, rich, socialite crowd, not because of the issues.. which is sad.

[Dale]

Dale,

Actually that isn't true.  You said you lived in a suburb and I asked which one and you gave me the name of a county and Orlando. You never gave me the name of the town. My theory was that cities are diverse and perhaps that is why they are liberal.  I will be more than happy to compare the diversity of your suburb to Orlando and their voting records but in order to do so I actually need the name of the suburb.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I don't live in a town. I live in Orange County, though my mailing address is 'Orlando'. Now I could describe my area as 'East Orange'. Or I might even give you the name of my subdivision, which is Watermill Cove. Which I doubt you'll find on the internet.

And I'll address your latest thoughtful post this evening - consevative solutions.

[Aessotariq]

Point of clarification: Florida has many suburban areas that are unincorporated, so Dale is not incorrect in saying that he lives in Orange County and using Orlando as a reference point, because there is no city government where he lives. Unlike the Midwest and Northeast, there are no "townships" in Florida; the county government fills the role of local municipal government when there is no city.

[MrSmith]

Point of clarification: Florida has many suburban areas that are unincorporated, so Dale is not incorrect in saying that he lives in Orange County and using Orlando as a reference point, because there is no city government where he lives. Unlike the Midwest and Northeast, there are no "townships" in Florida; the county government fills the role of local municipal government when there is no city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess there really is no way to really find factual information if it is unincorporated. Anyway, my original point was that cities tend to be liberal relative to their surrounding areas -- and that holds true for the vast majority of cities. In fact I found an interesting USA today article which talks about this whole subject...here is a small excerpt and confirms what people on here were saying:

"The diversity of cities also breeds more diversity, along with a live-and-let-live mindset that is a lure for young people, singles, minorities, gays, immigrants and artists, most of whom supported Gore" [the article is from 2000] Furthermore the article said "Big-city voters handed Gore a 71% to 25% landslide, while six in 10 rural and small-town voters backed Bush. The suburbs, split evenly between the two parties, continue to be the pivotal battlegrounds in national elections."

Anyway, the topic has now probably been exhausted.

[Dale]

I guess there really is no way to really find factual information if it is unincorporated.  Anyway, my original point was that cities tend to be liberal relative to their surrounding areas -- and that holds true for the vast majority of cities.  In fact I found an interesting USA today article which talks about this whole subject...here is a small excerpt and confirms what people on here were saying:

"The diversity of cities also breeds more diversity, along with a live-and-let-live mindset that is a lure for young people, singles, minorities, gays, immigrants and artists, most of whom supported Gore" [the article is from 2000] Furthermore the article said "Big-city voters handed Gore a 71% to 25% landslide, while six in 10 rural and small-town voters backed Bush. The suburbs, split evenly between the two parties, continue to be the pivotal battlegrounds in national elections."

Anyway, the topic has now probably been exhausted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Call me stubborn, but the paragraph referenced reminds me of my suburban neighborhood, which I suspect is *increasingly typical in suburbia*. And, ironically, it suggests a *conformity as regards political views*, less diverse, in that respect, than the typical suburban neighborhood ... 71-25 Gore for the big cities, as opposed to an even split in the suburbs.

[Snowguy716]

I do agree Dale. Suburbs are getting more diverse. Everywhere is getting more diverse.

But it still remains, that on average, inner cities are more diverse than their suburban counter parts.

I've always referred to the American urban dilemma as a rock hitting a water, causing a ripple effect.

In the '50s, all the whites fled the cities and built up the suburbs. As time progressed, they moved further and further out as minorities began to move into the inner ring suburbs. This is apparent in Minneapolis where large populations of african and asian americans are moving into the inner ring suburbs. Now the whites are moving back into the inner city again resulting in more diversity. I believe, that as the cities grow again, people will begin moving into the suburbs for cheaper property. With the established minority populations, it will become whiter.. but more diverse at the same time.

Of course it's all an "armchair" analysis.. but it's fun nonetheless.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Call me stubborn, but the paragraph referenced reminds me of my suburban neighborhood, which I suspect is *increasingly typical in suburbia*. And, ironically, it suggests a *conformity as regards political views*, less diverse, in that respect, than the typical suburban neighborhood ... 71-25 Gore for the big cities, as opposed to an even split in the suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really don't think that suburbs are getting "increasingly diverse". If they are, they need to really pick up the pace. By no means is my area undiverse (is that a word? lol), but people in this area are also very segregated from one another. Poquoson is a small independent city (a white enclave I would argue) within Hampton Roads that has 2 black students at their high school, a few Asian students, a few hispanic students, and 3 gays (which I know of). Out of about 1000 students that is a paltry amount of diversity. I don't think that is by any means atypical in many areas of the south or the "big square states" out west. I think with your area, Dale, Orlando and much of central/south Florida is very diverse because for one it has a huge hispanic population due to immigration as well as retirees from all areas and all ethnicities. I would not ever picture Orlando as a "typical suburban area". I think you'd find it quite a bit different than suburban Omaha or suburban Colorado Springs, which are both cities of equal or greater size. I'm not saying that there's no diversity in the suburban areas, but the particular concentration of it in cities tends to force about a very different type of upbringing and tends to lean people towards greater openmindedness..

[Ruso]

Getting back to the topic a bit...

I guess as a city dweller i tend to lean more liberal because I want to find solutions to the problems i see every day.

I have Somali immagrants living right accross the street from me, playing with and caring for their children --going to work everyday (in jobs i would never want) and it makes me realize that the vast majority are just like me. In fact, I wish more Americans were as devoted to their families. I don't want to treat them as criminals unless they are criminals.  I want these families to succeed in America.  It is our best defense against future terrorism and these immagrants revitalize America like the generations before them.

I see homeless people and know that either they have mental problems or drinking problems or no family to rely on and it makes me wonder, what can we as a society do to help solve or at least aleviate this problem.  What if I had no family?  What if I had mental problems? -- I could be out on the street.

I see gay couples who love one another and have been together longer than and are more devoted to their partners then many straight people I know and I can't help but think that denying them the basic legal protections that we give other couples is just plain unfair.  In addition, I want us as a society to promote the idea that we need to help one another and form bonds --which ultimately would lead to less poverty, homelessness and isolation.

I see crime problem in which guns have killed so many people.  The guns almost always seem to have been stolen from people who legally obtained them.  I don't know how to stop the gun violence without restricting guns.

These are just a few "urban realities" I see everyday.  I would be more then willing to hear conservative solutions but I don't see any conservatives offering solutions for these problems or situations.  And, I am being serious -- I really want to know how conservatives would solve (not blame, not push aside, not sidestep) these urban realities -among others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That might be a problem, for many, the problem is caused by others, and therefore, it is impossible not to blame certain people. (before the "communists", now the "terrorists", always the liberals)

Have you noticed that most "liberal" cities are ports? I know this is a generalization, but I think it can be applied. In Ecuador, the Liberal revolution, at the beginning of the 20th century was started by coastal cities. Instea, Quito, the capital, located in the mountains, was managed by Catholic families with power, and therefore, was much more conservative. Things have now changed a lot, and now Quito is more related to democratic socialism than everything.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

That might be a problem, for many, the problem is  caused by others, and therefore, it is impossible not to blame certain people. (before the "communists", now the "terrorists", always the liberals)

Have you noticed that most "liberal" cities are ports? I know this is a generalization, but I think it can be applied. In Ecuador, the Liberal revolution, at the beginning of the 20th century was started by coastal cities. Instea, Quito, the capital, located in the mountains,  was managed by Catholic families with power, and therefore, was much more conservative. Things have now changed a lot, and now Quito is more related to  democratic socialism than everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may be a generalization, but in relation to LARGER cities, I think it's pretty accurate. A large city that is also a large port... what comes to mind? Long Beach/LA, Seattle, New York, Boston, Norfolk, Miami... Perhaps that's a point worth discussing? I'm uncertain of the correlation of liberalism and ports... but ther could be one? Perhaps?

[Dale]

www.freep.com/news/census/crace29_20010329.htm

A Shifting Mosaic: Detroit Suburbs turn Into Melting Pot

[Guest]

I have been following this thread for a while and though at times many posters began to allude to the answer (at least in my opinion) the conversation invariably drifts towards classifications (education, religion, race...).

Two observations have helped my form this theory. First, I have recently moved into a downtown area, albeit a mid-size city, and I am constantly reminded of my proximity to other people in the city vs. when I lived in the Knoxville

[Dale]

Wow, nashville ! That's a lot of big words in there.

You must be a city feller.

[Guest]

Wow, nashville ! That's a lot of big words in there.

You must be a city feller.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah this dictionary is heavy.

[Snowguy716]

I really don't think that suburbs are getting "increasingly diverse".  If they are, they need to really pick up the pace.  By no means is my area undiverse (is that a word? lol), but people in this area are also very segregated from one another.  Poquoson is a small independent city (a white enclave I would argue) within Hampton Roads that has 2 black students at their high school, a few Asian students, a few hispanic students, and 3 gays (which I know of).  Out of about 1000 students that is a paltry amount of diversity.  I don't think that is by any means atypical in many areas of the south or the "big square states" out west.  I think with your area, Dale, Orlando and much of central/south Florida is very diverse because for one it has a huge hispanic population due to immigration as well as retirees from all areas and all ethnicities.  I would not ever picture Orlando as a "typical suburban area".  I think you'd find it quite a bit different than suburban Omaha or suburban Colorado Springs, which are both cities of equal or greater size.  I'm not saying that there's no diversity in the suburban areas, but the particular concentration of it in cities tends to force about a very different type of upbringing and tends to lean people towards greater openmindedness..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, there were probably more than three gay students in your high school. Estimates range from 5-10% in any randomly selected population. Since homosexuality defies trends of where people live (For young people anyway, where their choice of living is limited.), it is likely that the figure was more like 50. But I guess you'd have to ask each person and count on them being honest to really know.

Also, I'm not so sure that diversity is only determined by race or sexual orientation. First of all, each person is different, so there is always some form of diversity. Hence the "cliques" in high school. That's why some people like football or band or hot dogs or tacos.

You'd probably find that the 2 black kids and how many ever asian students in your school could identify with you and the other white kids in your school a lot more than a black kid living in an urban ghetto. So, I don't think that diversity is so much determined by skin color as much as it is the environment in which you live.

That is why I always felt like I was lucky, even living in a generally rural area. My high school was hte same size as those in the suburbs with 2000 students, so the same opportunities were offered to me as the big schools, but we had the scope of an entire community/region going to our school. Rather than 95% white from a few large housing developments, we had kids literally from an area the size of Rhode Island.